The Rapture Deception

[for_his_glory]

Hi Jerry,
What I believe is very simple, based on scripture and also on what happened in Jerusalem in 70AD and which Jesus foretold would happen.

I know that the word RAPTURE is not in the N.T. This is NOT why I do not believe in a rapture of saved Christians. The idea of a rapture does seem to be in the N.T. but I believe the verses are not understood in terms of the times of that age....which we would call hermeneutics in exegeting the texts.

Very clearly and simply,,,this is what believe, which is supported by church theologians and not of my own making:

The end of the world will come one day.
Jesus will return.
The dead in Christ (who have been buried already) will be resurrected to their glorified bodies. They will already be in heaven with God in Spirit,,,but their bodies will now join them.

Then those that are still alive on earth will be changed in the twinkling of an eye and they also will receive their glorified bodies.

All together we will go to be in heaven, not just in our Spirit selves, but also in our glorified bodies. Everyone that ever lived that was a believer....together with Christ.

I do NOT believe that we will be taken away so as not to be part of the "great tribulation".
If there's going to be a great tribulation - which is most probable - I think we will certainly be part of it.

I think that this teaching, which did NOT exist in the early church, became very popular because it offers comfort to believers with the hope that they will not be a part of the tribulation.

Now, as also for_his_glory believes, I think this is a very dangerous doctrine.
If there is no rapture,,,what will happen to the faith of those Christians that thought Jesus would take them away beforehand? They will most probably lose their faith and with it their salvation.
(or maybe not...maybe God will be merciful with them..we cannot know this).

I hope this was clear.
I also don't really care that we all agree on everything...but I did say WHY I think it might be dangerous to teach this rapture idea.

It is a very dangerous theory that has no Biblical basis found in the
scriptures. This is why I teach against it as when pretribbers see the wrath of God being poured out in the world, I believe this will begin the falling away as many who have no truth found in them we end up taking the mark of the beast. God will send them strong delusions into believing the lying signs and wonders of the beast out of the earth being the son of perdition who is the last antichrist and false prophet.

 

[for_his_glory]

These pre-trib theories started with Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland who first told others of a vision she had in 1830. She admitted the vision seemed evil and dark, but many preachers of that time ran with it and eventually was handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of misinterpreting something.

There is no mention in scripture of a seven year tribulation period as in Revelations God speaks to us in scripture of the seven trumpets sounding in the end of days throughout the world, but yet no one knows how long the first six trumpets will last as each one has a beginning and an ending before the next one is sounded. The sounding of the seventh trumpet has a beginning, but no end as when Christ returns on the last day this will be our seventh day of rest that God has set apart and sanctifies for all who are His own as then all who are in their grave and alive at His coming that are His own will evermore be with the Lord. During the seventh trumpet that has sounded will usher in the 3 ½ years of more tribulation when the reign of the son of perdition that Satan works through begins, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12. The first six trumpets of God’s great wrath will bring much devastation to all who are still alive at this, the saints and the enemies of God as chaos will run rampant and many will fall prey to the son of perdition who promises them peace and safety to all who will take its mark. There is no mention of a seven year tribulation period as we will always have tribulations until Christ returns.

Scripture only teaches of 3 ½ years starting with the seventh trumpet as time, times and half time which equals 1260 days = 3 ½ years or 3 ½ Times – Hebrew calendar only had 30 days for each month and this is where you get 1260 days or 3 ½ years. The seventh trumpet is more devastating then the ones before it as this is the time when the son of perdition takes his literal seat in Jerusalem causing all through deceiving signs and wonders to bow down to him and take his mark, 1 Thessalonians 2:3-9; Rev 13.
[Scripture reference]
Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7
1260 days – Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6
42 months – Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5

God did not appoint us to wrath, but will keep us safe as each trumpet is sounded if we have faith and trust in Him for His provision. Nowhere in 1 Thessalonians 5:6-9 does it say Christians are raptured out of here before God's wrath begins. We are to be sober putting on the breastplate of faith and love and for an helmet the hope of our salvation. Jesus said those who endure until the end will be saved, Matthew 24:13. What is it that we must endure is everything Jesus outlined and taught us in Matthew 24:1-31 that is revealed to John in visions in Revelations. The disciples asked Jesus three questions: when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Just as Jesus taught His disciples we too are taught all the same things.

 

[jerry63935]

I do NOT believe that we will be taken away so as not to be part of the "great tribulation".
If there's going to be a great tribulation - which is most probable - I think we will certainly be part of it.

I think that this teaching, which did NOT exist in the early church, became very popular because it offers comfort to believers with the hope that they will not be a part of the tribulation.

i have no idea what the early church taught. the only part we see different is going through the great tribulation . i go by God has not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation . but its ok i dont ask others to believe like me . this goes back to interpretations. my only issue with end time teachings is time frame when Christ will return

 

[jerry63935]

Nowhere in 1 Thessalonians 5:6-9 does it say Christians are raptured out of here before God's wrath begins.

then you explain the reason for salvation ? if so lets look at psalms 91 10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. i find no scripture saying Christians experience the wrath of God
Romans 1:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

if i am truly born again blood bought my name in the book . I WILL NOT SEE THE WRATH OF GOD.

 

[GodsGrace]

i have no idea what the early church taught. the only part we see different is going through the great tribulation . i go by God has not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation . but its ok i dont ask others to believe like me . this goes back to interpretations. my only issue with end time teachings is time frame when Christ will return

Jerry, It's good to know what the Early Church Fathers taught/believed.
They learned from the Apostles and know better than us what they believed.

However, yes, I agree with you...we know our positions and they must be accepted.

God has not appointed us to wrath, however, does not really refer to the end times.
It's referring to God's wrath upon man. It refers to God's salvation toward us and that He is no longer mad at us when we are saved.

Romans 5:8-9
8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

In Romans the same word are used and are referring to our salvation,,,not to end times.

Also,

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Same language...same reference.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 is referring to God's wrath as has to do with not being saved...
not the end of the world and His wrath being poured out on mankind.

 

[for_his_glory]

then you explain the reason for salvation ? if so lets look at psalms 91 10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. i find no scripture saying Christians experience the wrath of God
Romans 1:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

if i am truly born again blood bought my name in the book . I WILL NOT SEE THE WRATH OF GOD.

I never said Christians will experience Gods wrath falling on them as they who are still alive at that time are kept from it falling on them as by faith we trust in God for our salvation as Jesus said, "All that will endure until the end will be saved."

Our salvation is through Christ Jesus by that of God's grace who will return immediately after the tribulation of those days as the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Therefore let us not sleep as do others, but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night, and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day be sober putting on the breastplate of faith and love and for an helmet the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ who died for us that whether we wake or sleep we should live together with him.

 

[jerry63935]

I never said Christians will experience Gods wrath falling on them

the great tribulation is the wrath of God Daniel 12:1 “At that time shall arise aMichael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. your welcome to go through it

 

[for_his_glory]

the great tribulation is the wrath of God Daniel 12:1 “At that time shall arise aMichael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. your welcome to go through it

Of course the great tribulation in the end of days is the wrath of God during the seventh trumpets sounding, but it takes more than just one verse to understand the full context of scripture.

When the seventh trumpet is sounded then the prophecy that Daniel was given in Daniel Chapters 7 and 12 will begin with the wearing out of the saints of God when the war in heaven between Michael and his angels casting Satan and his angels out of heaven will begin.

The time of great trouble will be when Satan works through the beast out of the sea who gives power to the beast out of the earth to rule over the nations for 3 1/2 years causing all to bow down and worship the beast being the son of perdition, 1 Thessalonians 2:3-12, and through lying signs and wonders will cause everyone to take its mark or die a martyr's death, Rev 13.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Vs. 1 Prophecy of the great time of trouble found in Rev 12

Vs. 2, 3 Prophecy of the resurrection on the last day found in John 5:28, 29; Rev 19 and sealing of the book even to the time of the end.

Vs. 5-13 the great time of trouble being 3 1/2 years, Rev 13.

 

[JLB]

9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, mbut to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ
i also see the rapture being taken out . and the return of Christ two separate events// what i do not give is time line this does not make me pre or mid trib. it makes be need to be ready

Again, you keep mentioning the tribulation, while ignoring what the scripture and it’s context actually teach.


1 Thessalonians 5:9 is contextually linked to 1 Thessalonians 4:15.

The context is about the coming of the Lord; The Day of the Lord.


The Day of the Lord is where Jesus physically returns to the earth and gathers His people at the resurrection and rapture, and then once His people are safely gathered to be with the Lord, He destroys the wicked, including the antichrist.


The destruction of the wicked is His wrath.


The Church is with Christ, in the air high above the earth, gathered together with Jesus, when He pours out His wrath upon the wicked.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:9



Again, as I mentioned several times, the three things that occur at the coming of the Lord are:

1. The Resurrection
2. The Rapture
3. The destruction of the wicked, including the antichrist

Its all written right here in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9




JLB

 

[JLB]

the great tribulation is the wrath of God Daniel 12:1 “At that time shall arise aMichael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. your welcome to go through it

The great tribulation is the wrath of Satan.


Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time. Revelation 12:12


After the tribulation, at His coming, Jesus returns to execute the wrath of God against the wicked.


Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16



JLB

 

[JLB]

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:21



Tribulation — Strongs G 2347 — thlipsis

1. a pressing, pressing together, pressure
2. metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits

This word is also rendered as persecution—


Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution G2347 that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. Acts 11:19



Jesus contextually associates tribulation with persecution —


But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21


THE POINT:


The great tribulation is Satan persecuting the Church, because he has been cast down and confined to the earth, and is angry his time is short.


The great tribulation is not about God persecuting the Church.





JLB

 

[jerry63935]

The great tribulation is not about God persecuting the Church

where did you get this from? certainly not me i dont see the church here during the GREAT tribulation .i read by using the numbers 7 years .the first 3 1/2 will be very deceptive the full intense comes at the end of 31/2 .. this is me... could i be wrong possibly could you be ? possibly could we all be wrong to some degree possibly. it will happen the way God has it planed his timing. we just need to be ready

 

[jerry63935]

he Day of the Lord is where Jesus physically returns to the earth and gathers His people at the resurrection and rapture, and then once His people are safely gathered to be with the Lord, He destroys the wicked, including the antichrist.


The destruction of the wicked is His wrath.


The Church is with Christ, in the air high above the earth, gathered together with Jesus, when He pours out His wrath upon the wicked.

i never denied this so what's your point? i am wrong your right?

 

[JLB]

where did you get this from?

From the scripture.

Please read my posts, and the scriptures I so plainly wrote out for you to see.


The great tribulation is the wrath of Satan.


Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time. Revelation 12:12


After the tribulation, at His coming, Jesus returns to execute the wrath of God against the wicked.

This is the wrath of God.


Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16




JLB

 

[jerry63935]

Please read my posts, and the scriptures I so plainly wrote out for you to see.

i have and your telling me because i dont believe like you i am wrong. case closed

 

[JLB]

i have and your telling me because i dont believe like you i am wrong. case closed

Actually I’m asking you to read what I have posted so you will not misunderstand my perspective.


JLB

 

[jerry63935]

Actually I’m asking you to read what I have posted so you will not misunderstand my perspective.


JLB

i read it i agree with scriptures its the timing events i see the rapture and 2nd coming 2 different event this is where the pre mid trib disagreement comes in / my self i can not come to full conclusion to the above . there are certain denoms that are %100 pro pre trib and have scriptures . the mid same way. and then your belief. any of the above is ok just be ready . if were truly saved/children of the day .it will all work out

 

[for_his_glory]

The great tribulation is the wrath of Satan.


Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time. Revelation 12:12


After the tribulation, at His coming, Jesus returns to execute the wrath of God against the wicked.


Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16



JLB

Satan and his unholy angels are now cast out of heaven forever and cast down to the earth. He is full of wrath as he has no more access to heaven where he stood before the Lord accusing the brethren while Jesus made intercession for them, Romans 8:34. Now is come salvation, strength and the kingdom of our Lord and the power of His Christ as we have overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony as we love not our lives unto death.

Now that Satan has been cast down to earth he is furious as he knows his time is short and he is going to do everything in his own power to silence and destroy the anointed of God as he works through the beast out of the sea who gives power to te beast out of the earth, Rev 13. Salvation brings with its Gods power and authority that gives us the strength to stand against Satan. Strength refreshes us to stand and not be weary, to walk and not give up. We rely on Gods strength to help us through every obstacle that stands in our way. Satan has always tried to fight against us and wear the flesh down, but our strength comes by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit living in us, Isaiah 40:31; Matthew 26:41.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Read Thessalonians chapter 5.
How does it differ from your rapture verses in chapter 4?
It doesn't.
It is a continuation of the truth.
Believe it.

 

[Tertul]

Some are teaching that the rapture happens before the Lord
returns at the very end. Yes, of course some teach this, because Paul taught it. don't stop in chapter 4; read chapter 5 and notice that Paul taught the rapture will come a moment before the Start of the Day of the Lord.

I suspect you didn't provide a verse quote, or anything beyond "read chapter 5" because Paul does not say what you say he said. Just because Paul addressed the topic of the so-called rapture before the topic of the Day of the Lord doesn't mean he taught that the rapture came first (if this isn't what you were thinking, sorry, I have to read your mind, as you didn't present your case in the first place).

No Christian will be raptured before any tribulation.