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The Reason for Endless Debates

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AVBunyan

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Many folks seem to have a hard time with simple truths from the scriptures:

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Dead folk cannot respond to or understand simple, spiritual truths - hence the reason for endless debates and disputings here and other forums.
 
AVBunyan said:
Many folks seem to have a hard time with simple truths from the scriptures:

Dead folk cannot respond to or understand simple, spiritual truths - hence the reason for endless debates and disputings here and other forums.

Or maybe it's the possibility that you might be wrong?
 
AVBunyan said:
Many folks seem to have a hard time with simple truths from the scriptures:

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Dead folk cannot respond to or understand simple, spiritual truths - hence the reason for endless debates and disputings here and other forums.
I'm thinking a Christian forum is a likely place to find debate. As your signature indicates, you yourself are not abashed to point out your separation from even those who are your next of kin. This separation between the Independent Baptists and other Baptists groups has occured by means of stating and refuting doctrinal positions (you might call this debate).

Why do you assume that the scriptures above apply to others, and not yourself?
 
Thing is, having not yet been perfected, we are all still to some degree veiled to the work of God others, therefore, we speak in hope.

Which is really a wonderful thing that pleases God.

Yet, there is the matter of motive which can corrupt the fine meal of hope. And this is why we must constantly be given to the Lord, so that we might maintain a clear conscience before God and men.

Speaking on its own is not a terrible thing; speaking outside of God is.

And this is one part of what we have been given our time on earth for,.... to learn how to have a speaking that is in God.

And forums are a good place to practice.


I thank God for these forums and all who participate on them, even though I mourn over some of the speaking that one comes across.

Yet, I know that God is greater than even the lowest of spoken thoughts.

And in this He keeps me from losing hope.

In love,
cj
 
Barry Zuckerkorn said:
AVBunyan said:
Many folks seem to have a hard time with simple truths from the scriptures:

Dead folk cannot respond to or understand simple, spiritual truths - hence the reason for endless debates and disputings here and other forums.

Or maybe it's the possibility that you might be wrong?
I believe I am absolutley right - notice that I made mention of "simple" truths - the simplest truth to a real saint should be an understanding of the simple gospel of I Cor. 15:1-5 and yet the average saint today can no more expound this than an alien from Mars can.

The reason there is much debate over OSAS is because, again, the average saint does not have a simple and clear understanding of the gospel - It all starts here. If a person firmly maintains he can lose his salvation and pushes this truth I believe he is lost for he has missed the gospel of Paul which is found in I Cor. 15:1-5.

If one cannot see Paul's gospel today then he is lost - not my opinion, that is Paul's (II Cor. 4:3) . If a person cannot see the real gospel (there are false ones - Gal. 1:8,9) then from that point on all debates and discussions become null and void for the lost man cannot understnd spiritual truths (I Cor. 2:14).

Now, I understand a saved man can wrestle with truths - I do - nobody has it all down here but...but...if they can't see the gospel then it is hid from them and they are still dead in trespasses and sins.

Just look at the debating over issues that should not be an issue and never have been an issue to the common, saved man of days gone by - Justification by faith and authority.

The average redeemed saint of yesteryear never questioned the Bible like what is going on today. Folks have been talked out of their bibles by smooth, slick, educated, rascals!

The average redeemed saint of yesteryear could give a clear, scripturual testimony of justification.

Today you have:

1. Man-centered justification - works - guessing about 90% of christianity

2. Man-centered authority - man is his own final authority - it is certainly no Bible that he has in his hands and that is a fact! "Charistianity's authority is found in a church, pastors, priests, Greek professors, etc. but nowhere is it found in one final authority that they can say is without error. - About 95% of christianity - just a guess!

Modern "christianity" is an insane asylum run by the inmates. :o
 
AVBunyan said:
Barry Zuckerkorn said:
AVBunyan said:
Many folks seem to have a hard time with simple truths from the scriptures:

Dead folk cannot respond to or understand simple, spiritual truths - hence the reason for endless debates and disputings here and other forums.

I believe I am absolutley right - notice that I made mention of "simple" truths - the simplest truth to a real saint should be an understanding of the simple gospel of I Cor. 15:1-5 and yet the average saint today can no more expound this than an alien from Mars can.

The reason there is much debate over OSAS is because, again, the average saint does not have a simple and clear understanding of the gospel -
Now, I understand a saved man can wrestle with truths - I do - nobody has it all down here but...but...if they can't see the gospel then it is hid from them and they are still dead in trespasses and sins.

Just look at the debating over issues that should not be an issue and never have been an issue to the common, saved man of days gone by - Justification by faith and authority.

The average redeemed saint of yesteryear never questioned the Bible like what is going on today. Folks have been talked out of their bibles by smooth, slick, educated, rascals!

Modern "christianity" is an insane asylum run by the inmates. :o

AVBunyan I think you are so right! this is why I was disgusted with a forum that I joined a while back, apparently poeple today just go to church but they never get tranformed, they have no idea what is in the scriptures and all some of them is have debate on what is wrong or right and they can't even understand simple truths. No one understand the word of God if he is not one of His.
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
 
His reflection said:
AVBunyan I think you are so right! this is why I was disgusted with a forum that I joined a while back, apparently poeple today just go to church but they never get tranformed, .... No one understand the word of God if he is not one of His.
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
Thanks His reflection - I'm glad you understand my point.

Also- the verses you quoted are right target regarding the subject - good insight!!!

May God richly bless you 8-)
 
I started another thread on this topic, and I agree that healthy debate is necessary for learning. What I do not like is the personal attacks, which I think lends itself to hate.

Also I wanted to see what everyone agrees on scripturally! Can one not learn in agreement as well as healthy debate?

Thanks
Lou
 
AV said:
The reason there is much debate over OSAS is because, again, the average saint does not have a simple and clear understanding of the gospel - It all starts here. If a person firmly maintains he can lose his salvation and pushes this truth I believe he is lost for he has missed the gospel of Paul which is found in I Cor. 15:1-5.
So you agree that OSAS is false then, according to 1 Cor. 15:1-5?
 
Dead folk

Merry Menagerie said:
Who are 'dead folk'?
"Dead folk" be "lost folk" -

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
 
Confusion

Free said:
AV said:
The reason there is much debate over OSAS is because, again, the average saint does not have a simple and clear understanding of the gospel - It all starts here. If a person firmly maintains he can lose his salvation and pushes this truth I believe he is lost for he has missed the gospel of Paul which is found in I Cor. 15:1-5.
So you agree that OSAS is false then, according to 1 Cor. 15:1-5?

Either you believe Christ died for all your sins or you don't - it can't be any simpler than that.

If you believe you can "have it" today and "lose it" tomorrow then you do not believe Christ died for your sins - you do not believe Christ's death was sufficient for your sins.
 
Re: Dead folk

AVBunyan said:
Merry Menagerie said:
Who are 'dead folk'?
"Dead folk" be "lost folk" -

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Is this spiritually? Or of the flesh (reckon yourself dead to sin)?
 
No authority

DISconect2 said:
I started another thread on this topic, and I agree that healthy debate is necessary for learning. What I do not like is the personal attacks, which I think lends itself to hate.

Also I wanted to see what everyone agrees on scripturally! Can one not learn in agreement as well as healthy debate?

Thanks
Lou
Hi Lou - I don't see any personal attacks on this thread yet. Is it my tone that irks you or others? I've been on forums off and on for over three years - I've tried to be nice but still nothing so I'll stick with being blunt when confronting attacks on justification by faith alone.

"Agree scripturally"?!?!? Impossible - with mutiple modern versions, priests, pastors, self and others as being authority you have no final authority to use as a standard of truth - hence all the confusion - every man believes that which is right in his own eyes (opinion).

But a nice idea though :-?
 
AV,

I think that you may be over simplifing the interpretation of some of the scriptures.

A lot of OSAS proponents tout John 3:16 as all one has to know and do to get salvation and never lose it...

John 3:16 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

...then how does one explain the meaning of James 2:19?

James 2:19 KJV
(19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

You seem to condemn 'works'! I guess that James comments below doesn't carry any weight with you.

James 2:17-18 KJV
(17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
(18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Why is that?

I would like to get your take on a few of the many passages which seem to complicate the OSAS position. Why are Christians told to do the following if there is such a thing as OSAS?

Luke 11:4 KJV
(4) And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

If there is such a thing a OSAS, then why does Luke, above, record Jesus teaching us how to pray? Why pray daily for forgiveness of our sins if OSAS? Also, wouldn't prayer fall under 'works'?

John 14:15 KJV
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Why does John record Jesus telling us, above, to keep His commandments if OSAS? Here again, isn't keeping commandments 'work'?

2 Timothy 2:15 KJV
(15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

What does Timothy, above, mean...why do all of this 'work' if OSAS?
(Also, I'm thinking that the above verse may be trying to tell us that the easiest, simplest, most obvious, interpretation of a passage may not be the most accurate.)

Revelation 2:10 KJV
(10) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Why are we told to be faithful until death if OSAS?

If we have to cling to some verses and ignore others to be OSAS, we are lost!

As I see it, much diligent study, and even debate, is required to find the true path to heaven.

BTW - Since you tout the AV-1611, why don't you quote it when referencing scripture? This is NOT an attack, I'm just curious!!

YBIC,

farley
 
Re: Confusion

AVBunyan said:
Free said:
AV said:
The reason there is much debate over OSAS is because, again, the average saint does not have a simple and clear understanding of the gospel - It all starts here. If a person firmly maintains he can lose his salvation and pushes this truth I believe he is lost for he has missed the gospel of Paul which is found in I Cor. 15:1-5.
So you agree that OSAS is false then, according to 1 Cor. 15:1-5?

Either you believe Christ died for all your sins or you don't - it can't be any simpler than that.

If you believe you can "have it" today and "lose it" tomorrow then you do not believe Christ died for your sins - you do not believe Christ's death was sufficient for your sins.
It is unbiblical to say that we "have" salvation. We were saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Jesus clearly states that those who persevere to the end shall be saved.

Salvation is not an it, it's a relationship. You cannot "have" salvation any more than you can "have" marriage.

Ultimately, you have a notion of salvation that is based upon a work- believing in Christ, as in a one-time event. This is dumbed-down Pelagianism.
We are not saved by our faith in Christ- we are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ
Learn from Paul's metaphor of marriage.
 
farley said:
AV,

1. I think that you may be over simplifing the interpretation of some of the scriptures.

2. BTW - Since you tout the AV-1611, why don't you quote it when referencing scripture? This is NOT an attack, I'm just curious!!

YBIC,

farley

1. 2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2. I do - the referneces I used were from a KJV unless somebody slipped something in on me.

Many of the verses you used are not dealing with justification and your other suspect passages have nothing to do with the body of Christ today.

Now - do you believe the gospel that Christ died for your sins or not?

Start here - get this settled - ask God to show you this first and then the "what ifs" will not be an issue. You folks spend all your time with these "scenarios" and "what if" stuff and you haven't gotten justification settled yet.

Forgot about OSAS - deal with scriptural justification found in Rom. 3-5 and Eph. 1-3 first.
 
AV said:
Either you believe Christ died for all your sins or you don't - it can't be any simpler than that.

If you believe you can "have it" today and "lose it" tomorrow then you do not believe Christ died for your sins - you do not believe Christ's death was sufficient for your sins.
I certainly don't believe that one can lose their salvation overnight, but that if, over a period of time of not remaining open to the grace of God, they fall back into a life of sin and out of the grace of God. Christ's death is most certainly sufficient, but we are repeatedly warned to stand:

1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures
 
Gospel

Free said:
I certainly don't believe that one can lose their salvation overnight, but...

Free - it appears you do no believe that Christ died for your sins - you do not hold fast the word - i.e. you do not believe what Paul said.
 
Re: Confusion

Orthodox Christian said:
We are not saved by our faith in Christ- we are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ.

And can His faith ever fail to accomplish the work of this faith in a man?

No.

Your apostate thought is defeated by your own words,...... again OC.


But lets take a look at some other parts of your post.

Orthodox Christian said:
We were saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved.

And yet, Christ Jesus, He who is our salvation, is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Additionally, Ephesians 1:4 declares that God chose us in Christ Jesus from before the foundation of the world; meaning, that from eternity past, before He created us, God chose us according to His infinite foresight. This implies that the world, which is the universe, was founded for man's existence to fulfill God's eternal purpose.

And this purpose being.... firstly, holy, meaning not only sanctified, separated unto God, but also different, distinct, from everything that is common. Only God is different, distinct, from all things. Hence, He is holy; holiness is His nature. He chose us that we should be holy. He makes us holy by imparting Himself, the Holy One, into our being, that our whole being may be permeated and saturated with His holy nature. For us, God's chosen ones, to be holy is to partake of God's divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4) and to have our whole being permeated with God Himself. This is different from mere sinless perfection or sinless purity. This makes our being holy in God's nature and character, just like God Himself.

And secondly, in love.

Love here refers to the love with which God loves His chosen ones and His chosen ones love Him. It is in this love, in such a love, that God's chosen ones become holy and without blemish before Him. First, God loved us; then this divine love inspires us to love Him in return. In such a condition and atmosphere of love, we are saturated with God to be holy and without blemish, just as He is.

God being the one who purposed and sanctifies because of His love with which He loves His chosen ones, we are guaranteed the following (which is found in verses 5 - 12 of the same chapter)....

Ephesians 1:5-12, "Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He graced us in the Beloved; predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses, according to the riches of His grace, which He caused to abound to us in all wisdom and prudence, making known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Himself, unto the economy of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in Him; In whom also we were designated as an inheritance, having been predestinated according to the purpose of the One who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we would be to the praise of His glory who have first hoped in Christ."

So yes, absolutely we are saved, are being saved, and will be saved,.... as the economy of God's full salvation is worked out in all of us, but in this economy there is the declared and irrevocable guarantee of God Himself that the Son will lose none out of His hand.

It is one this divine guarantee that our complete salvation is founded, and not in our efforts.

And how does one come to lay hold of, possess, receive this gift that has the divine guarantee?

By believing that Jesus shed His blood as payment for our sins, past, present, and future, and that He is risen that we in Him may have eternal life.

And the wonderful thing about even this, is that it is the Lord as the Spirit in our regenerated spirit that initiates, carries out, and completes our believing unto full salvation.

Christ never fails, and therefore salvation belongs to us.

Orthodox Christian said:
Jesus clearly states that those who persevere to the end shall be saved.

Once again, absolutely He does,..... but as a result of your weak scriptural understanding you have applied the Lord's speaking improperly.

See, in Matthew 10:22-23, Jesus was speaking to a specific matter, that of a believer being persecuted in this life.

Lets read it according to it entire thought...

Matthew 10:22-23, "And you will be hated by all because of My name. But he who has endured to the end, this one shall be saved...... And when they persecute you..... in this city, flee into another. For truly I say to you, You shall by no means finish the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.... And you will be hated by all because of My name..... But he who has endured to the end, this one shall be saved."

As is clear revealed in these verses is that Jesus is speaking, not to the general matter of our eternal salvation, but to a specific matter of our enduring through the persecution of those who hate you.

This specific, clearly referenced type of suffering is not the only type of situation/environment that a believer must endure and overcome in the process of our salvation being worked out to its fullness, and therefore one cannot use the Lord's speaking to this specific matter to conclude the broader matter of a believers full salvation.

And again, we can see the same thing in the other scriptural cross-references to this speaking of our Lord in Matthew 24:9-14 and in Mark, and in the speaking of the apostles in other NT books (Hebrews & James).

In fact, in James we have a very clear view of what our Lord is speaking of and desires in our living so that He might gain overcoming believers as an expression on this earth.

James says, making particular reference to Job, and drawing a direct parallel to Job's patience in his use of the word translated as enduring.....

James  5 : 11, "Behold,..... we (saved believer)..... call..... those who endured (specfic believers from among the greater body).... blessed. You have heard of the endurance of Job (patience), and you have seen his end from the Lord, that the Lord is very tenderhearted and compassionate."

The Greek word  in verb form here and in noun form in Rom. 5:3 and 2 Cor. 1:6  connotes patience toward things, such as the patience that Job had toward the things that afflicted him.

The matter of enduring/persevering is one related to the Lord's present need for an expression of Himself in believers on the earth at the present time, and not a matter of our eternal salvation, something that is guaranteed in Christ unto those who believe in what was accomplished on the cross and that He is risen.

Basically, you are once again in error in your scriptural interpretation OC, and thereore also in your conclusions.

Orthodox Christian said:
Salvation is not an it, it's a relationship. You cannot "have" salvation any more than you can "have" marriage.

Actually, salvation is both an "It" and a relationship, as salvation is simply the all inclusive Christ worked out in believing humanity.

Orthodox Christian said:
Ultimately, you have a notion of salvation that is based upon a work- believing in Christ, as in a one-time event. This is dumbed-down Pelagianism.

Twisting words again are you...... OC, if there is a worshipper of human works on these borads it is the follower of the apostate religion, such as yourself.

Scripture declares that our believing ability is simply Christ Himself rising up in us, and yes it is a work,.... the work of God.

And further, in one aspect of the matter of salvation it is a one-time event, but in another aspect it is a process.

A seed is planted, but in this seed is a nature that must be released and accomplish its natural purpose.

When a believer first believes a divine seed is planted in this person's being. As this person continues believing the divine life in this seed is released and works out its purpose.

God's work is first to bring a person to believe, and then to get this person to continue believeing. The short-term goal being His gaining of an expression of Himself in men even within an environment of fallen creation, and the overall goal being His gaining His expression for eternity future.

This is seen in the principle of the early/first fruit versus the later fruit.

Orthodox Christian said:
We are not saved by our faith in Christ- we are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Well, as true as this may be, it is not the complete truth,..... because, as you mentioned above, we must consider what the relationship is regarding the "we" you mention above.

You do remember that "we" don't you? Do you see it, the "we" I mean?

This faith of Christ must have a way to first enter into and then operate in this "we" we refer to, and God will not overide man's will.

So, although you have not spoken a lie, you have also not spoken the complete truth.

But lets look at the scripture you presented below so that we can mine the full truth from it.....

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ"

Although I don't believe that the translation you used is the best there is, I'll work with it since its what you presented. But understand that its somewhat short.

Faith of Jesus Christ, or, faith in Jesus Christ, refers to the faith of Jesus Christ in us, which has become the faith by which we believe in Him, as in v. 26; Gal. 2:16, 20; 3:22; Eph. 3:12; and Phil. 3:9.

Faith of/in Jesus Christ denotes an organic union with Him through believing. This is related to the believers' appreciation of the person of the Son of God as the most precious One. The believers are infused with the preciousness of Christ through the gospel preached to them. This Christ becomes in them the faith by which they believe and the capacity to believe through their appreciation of Him. This faith creates an organic union in which they and Christ are one.

Faith has an object, and it issues from its object. This object is Jesus, who is God incarnate. When man hears Him, knows Him, appreciates Him, and treasures Him, He causes faith to be generated in man, enabling man to believe in Him. Thus, He becomes the faith in man by which man believes in Him. Hence, this faith becomes the faith in Him, and it is also the faith that belongs to (of) Him.

In God's New Testament economy, God desires that man believe in Jesus, who is God incarnate. If man does not believe in Him, he commits the unique sin before God (John 16:9). However, if man believes in Him, he is righteous to the uttermost before God, and God reckons this faith as his righteousness. At the same time, this faith brings its object, that is, this One who is God incarnate, into those who believe in Him. He is God's righteousness, and God has given Him as righteousness to those who are indwelt by Him (Jer. 23:6). All this is out of, and depends on, the faith that is in Him and of Him (Heb. 12:2).

Paul's ministry is a wonderful gift to all believers.

Orthodox Christian said:
Learn from Paul's metaphor of marriage.

Well,..... then of course we have the verses that describe how God gained a perfect counterpart for Adam prior to their marriage.


Keep in mind, the marriage has not yet taken place.


In love,
cj
 
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