What's new
  • Do not use Chrome Incognito when registering as it freezes the registration page.
  • Guest, Random Acts of Kindness week starts February 11 and culminates with the Random Acts Of Kindness Day on February the 17th. Find out more to be a part of this fantastic day! -->Lucian Hodoboc's Blog and Random Acts of Kindess Blog
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • No longer will OSAS vx OSNAS be allowed to be debated, argued, or discussed in theology forum. Too much time is required to monitor and rescources used to debate this subject which hasn't been definitively decided in 3,000 years.

the removal the church isnt supportable

jasoncran

Member
Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
38,271
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
I know what it is. the jews call it noahide laws and we Christians follow those laws.
1) revere G-D
2)no sexual sins
3) respect life
4) no animal cruelty
5) COURTS of law to enforce that
6)no idoloatry

off the top my head.if you look at acts 15 we do that Now.the church charged that to us.
 

JosyWales

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
26
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
I agree with the poster that the removal of the church (the Rapture as it is called) is unsupportable if for no other reason than that Jesus himself said he was against it in:

Jhn 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

If Jesus didnt wish the deciples that he knew personally to be taken out of the world, why would he decide to do exactly the opposite with us, who have not proven ourselves worthy? I dont think He would do so, I dont care how special some Christians think of themselves.
 

n2thelight

Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2007
Messages
2,227
Christian
Yes
ok so then there wont be bodies of flesh? really hmm so with what bodies will the sinners have?
Do you not recall Paul saying,ALL shall be changed,so whatever body that change brings is what we shall have.......Flesh and blood cannot and will not enter that kingdom.......At the end of the millennium,all shall be judged,in their spiritual bodies..........
 

n2thelight

Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2007
Messages
2,227
Christian
Yes
ok then what happens to the sinners that enter the millennium? whom gave birth to them?

The purpose of the millennium,is for all to be taught the true word of God,without satan's interference,that's why he shall be bound...Now,just because one is changed does not mean they are saved,in other words,their soul is still mortal

Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Notice there are two sets of books here. The first called "The Books" is to judge the unsaved. The second is the "Book of Life" where only the names of the saved are recorded. The saved have had their sins removed from God's judgment and booted out. Though they were committed, the blood of Christ has covered them from being used against us.
Notice how all souls are judged "according to their works". Does it talk about faith here after the Millennium? No. The "great white throne judgment" will not take faith into consideration. The first resurrection takes faith into consideration. That was back on "the Lord's day". That was Jesus Christ's "great day". On the last day of the Millennium age souls are judged by works only.

Why are you judged for works only? Faith is something hoped for but unseen. You don't see Jesus Christ on earth today, you will see his wonderful works, and be led by Him and His Spirit in the Millennium age. Today He is in heaven and not walking on this earth. However, in the millennium, He will be on earth, and all will have full intelligence, with full recall and will be taught. The Heavenly Father honors all those with grace, that have accepted His Son by faith through repentance without Christ's physical presence here on earth, if you believed in His Word.

To those who are not under grace in the Millennium, their salvation will be only through and by their works. For faith doesn't exist to them. There will be no ignorance, physical handicap, for you will see, know, and experience Our Lord first hand.

Those who have overcame before the Day of the Lord are saved,with no worry of the second death

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Those who took part in the first resurrection were those who died in the Lord, and those who did not yield to Satan, the Antichrist during his "one world" reign. Those who did not take the Antichrist's "mark of the beast", these are the blessed and holy ones. All of these people already will possess an immortal soul during the Millennium.

The "second death" is the second time of testing at the end of the Millennium age after Satan is released for a short season. The saints of Christ, and overcomers of the Antichrist's reign in this earth age of the flesh will not go through the second testing, or resurrection, with those mortal souls living in the Millennium age.

What are you going to do in the Millennium as a saint of Christ? You're going to be priests of God, and reign with Him. You are going to teach and oversee, and judge those mortal souls, as they will learn and follow all directives of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

n2thelight

Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2007
Messages
2,227
Christian
Yes
The mysterious event known as the Rapture is most clearly presented in Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, in which he encourages the grieving Christians that, at the "great snatch," they will be reunited with those who have died in Christ before them.

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

In verse 17, the English phrase "caught up" translates the Greek word Harpazo, which means "to seize upon with force" or "to snatch up."
I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea. As we study our Father's Word; set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture, and let's see what Paul is trying to tell the Thessalonians.

It is from these verses that the "rapture theory" was born. Let's see just how willing you are to bet your soul on it, when we take a fresh look at what Paul really said. Because that is what you are doing when you rely on it in the last days.

After Paul told the Thessalonians to live right in the community, and search their souls for sin in their lives, they were then to repent of any sin. Paul moved next to what happens when death comes to this flesh body. This topic is important to Paul, for it is the stabilizing factor to the Christian life. It removes the fear that comes from the unknown of ones death. Paul gives this information for one reason, and that is, that we not be ignorant as the heathen are. In other words, Paul doesn't want Christians stupid.

This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Regardless what chapter nine of Ecclesiastes says concerning the flesh body; when this flesh body is dead, the soul is gone from it, and the flesh is left to rot. It is difficult to see how they made a "rapture theory" out of this, when the subject is, "where are the dead?" So we see that when one dies, his soul goes immediately to be with our Heavenly Father. If you believe this, you are not heathen.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."
This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where? Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written.

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.

Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.

Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.

To document this, in I Corinthians 15:50 we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit", or face Jesus Christ in His kingdom. Christ's kingdom will cover the entire earth, and that is why the flesh body must perish. The time of this change comes at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trump, and stated in verse 52, "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".
Those who are even dead spiritually will be raised in an incorruptible body. That is a body that doesn't get sick, or grow old; in other words, it is your spiritual body.

Why?

Because the Kingdom of God is where ever Christ is; and at the seventh trump Christ will be on earth with the saints, and setting up his 1000 year millennium kingdom. No flesh and blood body can exist in that kingdom. This is your "gathering back to Christ", and that is what the rapture meaning is all about. It is the time when Christ comes back to earth and the saints that are alive are changed and drawn to Him.

I Corinthians 15:53, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
"Mortal" means "liable to die" in the Greek. At the last trump the Christians who stand against Satan, and his system, will have their immortality, however, those who fall for Antichrist and his system, will have to wait until after the 1000 years. "Corruptible into incorruption" is refering to the flesh body changing into the body such as the angels have, a spiritual body. Whereas the eternal condition of the soul is only extended to those who have not yielded to the Antichrist, For they only are the victors at the seventh trump. You put on immortality through Christ who set the way.

I Corinthians 15:54, "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."
Going back to I Thessalonians 4:15, we know when this will come to pass. It will be "at the last trump", when the alive in Christ are "changed", not flying away.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him. All we have to do now is go to the book of Revelation, and find out in detail when this will be. We find out what events will occur just prior to this seventh trump sounding, and then when we see these certain events taking place before our eyes, we will know our Lord will return to earth next. Then the trump will sound, and the gathering will take place, and we will be changed from our flesh bodies to our spiritual bodies. And not one day before.
 

n2thelight

Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2007
Messages
2,227
Christian
Yes
well then if all are in heaven then there can be no millennium. that is what some amil teaches., the problem then is that for you is the righteous that die will need a new body. if at the end of it why does it mention no saints be raised? the resurrection of the saints at his coming then 1000 break then a judgment of the rest of the dead?

if the mil saints are Christians and under the cross's work then they are what? saints? if so then they are a church.

Christ brings them from heaven on the Day of the Lord,which starts the millennium

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

They are already with Him in heaven
 

Sinthesis

Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
5,188
Christian
Yes
To those who are not under grace in the Millennium, their salvation will be only through and by their works. For faith doesn't exist to them. There will be no ignorance, physical handicap, for you will see, know, and experience Our Lord first hand.
There is no salvation through works, ever.
 

jasoncran

Member
Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
38,271
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
yet the isrealites in the wilderness. knew that it was God that lead them. and they that doubted simply died.if seeing and touching was the way then why did adam and eve sin?somehere think and blame the devil for often what men willingly do.God doesn't say in the judgment. well its the devil's fault and let you in. he damns you for your choice to reject him.
 

jasoncran

Member
Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
38,271
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
priests? that offer sin offering to god? really? where is that in the book of Ezekiel?oh yeah it says its clearly. they are sinners too. the levitical system is made obsolete.
 

Sinthesis

Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
5,188
Christian
Yes
Works done in faith are an expression of said faith. Faith in what? Either Laws or God. Works done without faith are an attempt at deception that cannot fool God. Read the Old Testament! God despises works that are not done in faith. They are detestable and certainly unsuitable for any thousand years of worship.
 

jasoncran

Member
Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
38,271
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Works done in faith are an expression of said faith. Faith in what? Either Laws or God. Works done without faith are an attempt at deception that cannot fool God. Read the Old Testament! God despises works that are not done in faith. They are detestable and certainly unsuitable for any thousand years of worship.
Hebrews 11 echoes that. it says faith repeatedly when it mentions the saints of the ot.
 

n2thelight

Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2007
Messages
2,227
Christian
Yes
Edward

As for your statement that I bolded, I ask you...How in the world could holding a view of immanency and being focused and watchful for Christ possibly condemn ones soul? Even if there is no Rapture, to be looking for Christ moment by moment is bad why? I'll lose my soul for this? (LOL)


The rapture teaches that Christ comes first,however satan comes first,pretending to be Christ,that's what the trib is all about,deception.......Most all will follow satan,thinking he is Christ,thus the chance of losing your soul for following satan.....Paul says Christ shall not return,until that man of sin is revealed,that man is non other than satan himself..................
 

n2thelight

Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2007
Messages
2,227
Christian
Yes
Sinthesis

Works done in faith are an expression of said faith. Faith in what? Either Laws or God. Works done without faith are an attempt at deception that cannot fool God. Read the Old Testament! God despises works that are not done in faith. They are detestable and certainly unsuitable for any thousand years of worship.


Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

We will see all during the millennium,it won't be a matter of faith....Your faith should be in Christ.......
 

jasoncran

Member
Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
38,271
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
ok. that is pointless then why would they refuse then if they KNOW that he is god ? faith is more then just seeing. theres evidence to the validity of the bible. its obvious to those that have their eyes open to the lord. faith is needed.

basically you have said that the torah will be changed. the jews don't even claim that level. they say something close but its more an unhindered access to god.hmm

wait a minute we have that now. why I can go to the heveanly temple of god and pray.
 

n2thelight

Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2007
Messages
2,227
Christian
Yes
What scripture is that?
II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come ,except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
 

Grappler

Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2013
Messages
789
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes


The rapture teaches that Christ comes first,however satan comes first,pretending to be Christ,that's what the trib is all about,deception.......Most all will follow satan,thinking he is Christ,thus the chance of losing your soul for following satan.....Paul says Christ shall not return,until that man of sin is revealed,that man is non other than satan himself..................
You are absolutely correct...why these people who believe in some kind of pre-tribulation escape can't read and understand scripture shows just how powerful of a deception that teaching is. The pre-tribulation rapture theory is based on fear....and cowardness.
 

n2thelight

Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2007
Messages
2,227
Christian
Yes
Edward

The Holy Spirit is now at work holding back the anti-Christ. After we are raptured out, the Holy Spirit will leave earth and God sends the people of the earth a powerful delusion that they may believe the lie. We Christians will not suffer the wrath of the great trib. This is a promise! Or possibly you think that the above scripture is wrong and we are some of the "all" in verse 12? Hmm? :chin

Notice in verse 1 Paul is speaking about our being gathered to him!
First,the Holy Spirit is not holding back the antichrist(satan)Michael is....2nd the Holy Spirit will never leave this earth,if that were to happen how does your so called tribulation saints get saved????

Yes Paul is speaking of our gathering to Christ,however you are missing when......Read verse 3 for your answers...As for the strong delussion,that will come over all who have not the seal of God in their minds,which leads to this question,why would the sevants of God need to be sealed,if they are not gonna be here????
 

Help Support this site

Total amount
$737.00
Goal
$5,020.00
Top