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The Roman Catholic Church and the Inquisition's Victims

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Remember, the Roman Catholic Church was responsible for the Inquisition.
Listed below are true accounts of what members of the Catholic Church did to anyone
who rejected the Pope's supposed infallibility, and who adhered to the true Gospel
of Jesus Christ.

An Account of the Cruel Handling and Burning of Nicholas Burton, an English
Merchant, in Spain
The fifth day of November, about the year of our Lord 1560, Mr. Nicholas Burton, citizen sometime of London, and merchant, dwelling in the parish of Little St. Bartholomew, peaceably and quietly, following his traffic in the trade of merchandise, and being in the city of Cadiz, in the party of Andalusia, in Spain, there came into his lodging a Judas, or, as they term them, a familiar of the fathers of Inquisition; who asking for the said Nicholas Burton, feigned that he had a letter to deliver into his own hands; by which means he spake with him immediately. And having no letter to deliver to him, then the said promoter, or familiar, at the motion of the devil his master, whose messenger he was, invented another lie, and said he would take lading for London in such ships as the said Nicholas Burton had freighted to lade, if he would let any; which was partly to know where he loaded his goods, that they might attach them, and chiefly to protract the time until the sergeant of the Inquisition might come and apprehend the body of the said Nicholas Burton; which they did incontinently.

He then well perceiving that they were not able to burden or charge him that he had written, spoken, or done any thing there in that country against the ecclesiastical or temporal laws of the same realm, boldly asked them what they had to lay to his charge that they did so arrest him, and bade them to declare the cause, and he would answer them. Notwithstanding they answered nothing, but commanded him with threatening words to hold his peace, and not speak one word to them.

And so they carried him to the filthy common prison of the town of Cadiz where he remained in irons fourteen days amongst thieves.

All which time he so instructed the poor prisoners in the Word of God, according to the good talent which God had given him in that behalf, and also in the Spanish tongue to utter the same, that in that short space he had well reclaimed several of those superstitiuous and ignorant Spaniards to embrace the Word of God, and to reject their popish traditions.

Which being known unto the officers of the Inquisition, they conveyed him laden with irons from thence to a city called Seville, into a more cruel and straiter prison called Triana, where the said fathers of the Inquisition proceeded against him secretly according to their accustomable cruel tyranny, that never after he could be suffered to write or speak to any of his nation: so that to this day it is unknown who was his accuser.

Afterward, the twentieth of December, they brought the said Nicholas Burton, with a great number of other prisoners, for professing the true Christian religion, into the city of Seville, to a place where the said inquisitors sat in judgment which they called auto, with a canvas coat, whereupon in divers parts was painted the figure of a huge devil, tormenting a soul in a flame of fire, and on his head a copping tank of the same work.

His tongue was forced out of his mouth with a cloven stick fastened upon it, that he should not utter his conscience and faith to the people, and so he was set with another Englishman of Southampton, and divers other condemned men for religion, as well Frenchmen as Spaniards, upon a scaffold over against the said Inquisition, where their sentences and judgments were read and pronounced against them.

And immediately after the said sentences given, they were carried from there to the place of execution without the city, where they most cruelly burned them, for whose constant faith, God is praised.

This Nicholas Burton by the way, and in the flames of fire, had so cheerful a countenance, embracing death with all patience and gladness, that the tormentors and enemies which stood by, said, that the devil had his soul before he came to the fire; and therefore they said his senses of feeling were past him.

It happened that after the arrest of Nicholas Burton aforesaid, immediately all the goods and merchandise which he brought with him into Spain by the way of traffic, were (according to their common usage) seized, and taken into the sequester; among which they also rolled up much that appertained to another English merchant, wherewith he was credited as factor. Whereof as soon as news was brought to the merchant as well of the imprisonment of his factor, as of the arrest made upon his goods, he sent his attorney into Spain, with authority from him to make claim to his goods, and to demand them; whose name was John Fronton, citizen of Bristol.

When his attorney was landed at Seville, and had shown all his letters and writings to the holy house, requiring them that such goods might be delivered into his possession, answer was made to him that he must sue by bill, and retain an advocate (but all was doubtless to delay him,) and they forsooth of courtesy assigned him one to frame his supplication for him, and other such bills of petition, as he had to exhibit into their holy court, demanding for each bill eight reals, albeit they stood him in no more stead than if he had put up none at all. And for the space of three or four months this fellow missed not twice a day attending every morning and afternoon at the inquisitors' palace, suing unto them upon his knees for his despatch, but especially to the bishop of Tarracon, who was at that very time chief of the Inquisition at Seville, that he of his absolute authority would command restitution to be made thereof; but the booty was so good and great that it was very hard to come by it again.

At length, after he had spent four whole months in suits and requests, and also to no purpose, he received this answer from them, that he must show better evidence, and bring more sufficient certificates out of England for proof of this matter, than those which he had already presented to the court. Whereupon the party forthwith posted to London, and with all speed returned to Seville again with more ample and large letters testimonial, and certificates, according to their requests, and exhibited them to the court.

Notwithstanding, the inquisitors still shifted him off, excusing themselves by lack of leisure, and for that they were occupied in more weighty affairs, and with such answers put him off, four months after.

At last, when the party had well nigh spent all his money, and therefore sued the more earnestly for his despatch, they referred the matter wholly to the bishop, of whom, when he repaired unto him, he made answer, 'That for himself, he knew what he had to do, howbeit he was but one man, and the determination appertained to the other commissioners as well as unto him;' and thus by posting and passing it from one to another, the party could obtain no end of his suit. Yet for his importunity's sake, they were resolved to despatch him: it was on this sort: one of the inquisitors, called Gasco, a man very well experienced in these practices, willed the party to resort unto him after dinner.

The fellow being glad to hear this news, and supposing that his goods should be restored unto him, and that he was called in for that purpose to talk with the other that was in prison to confer with him about their accounts, rather through a little misunderstanding, hearing the inquisitors cast out a word, that it should be needful for him to talk with the prisoner, and being thereupon more than half persuaded, that at length they meant good faith, did so, and repaired thither about the evening. Immediately upon his coming, the jailer was forthwith charged with him, to shut him up close in such a prison where they appointed him.

The party, hoping at the first that he had been called for about some other matter, and seeing himself, contrary to his expectation, cast into a dark dungeon, perceived at length that the world went with him far otherwise than he supposed it would have done.

But within two or three days after, he was brought into the court, where he began to demand his goods: and because it was a device that well served their turn without any more circumstance, they bid him say his Ave Maria: Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum, benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui Jesus Amen.

The same was written word by word as he spake it, and without any more talk of claiming his goods, because it was needless, they commanded him to prison again, and entered an action against him as a heretic, forasmuch as he did not say his Ave Maria after the Romish fashion, but ended it very suspiciously, for he should have added moreover; Sancta Maria mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus: by abbreviating whereof, it was evident enough (said they) that he did not allow the mediation of saints.

Thus they picked a quarrel to detain him in prison a longer season, and afterward brought him forth upon their stage disguised after their manner; where sentence was given, that he should lose all the goods which he sued for, though they were not his own, and besides this, suffer a year's imprisonment.

Mark Brughes, an Englishman, master of an English ship called the Minion, was burned in a city in Portugal.

William Hoker, a young man about the age of sixteen years, being an Englishman, was stoned to death by certain young men in the city of Seville, for the same righteous cause.

Some Private Enormities of the Inquisition Laid Open, by a Very Singular Occurrence

When the crown of Spain was contested for in the beginning of the present century, by two princes, who equally pretended to the sovereignty, France espoused the cause of one competitor, and England of the other.

The duke of Berwick, a natural son of James II who abdicated England, commanded the Spanish and French forces, and defeated the English at the celebrated battle of Almanza. The army was then divided into two parts; the one consisting of Spaniards and French, headed by the duke of Berwick, advanced towards Catalonia; the other body, consisting of French troops only, commanded by the duke of Orleans, proceeded to the conquest of Arragon.

As the troops drew near to the city of Arragon, the magistrates came to offer the keys to the duke of Orleans; but he told them haughtily that they were rebels, and that he would not accept the keys, for he had orders to enter the city through a breach.

He accordingly made a breach in the walls with his cannon, and then entered the city through it, together with his whole army. When he had made every necessary regulation here, he departed to subdue other places, leaving a strong garrison at once to overawe and defend, under the command of his lieutenant-general M. de Legal. This gentleman, though brought up a Roman Catholic, was totally free from superstition; he united great talents with great bravery; and was the skilful officer, and accomplished gentleman.

The duke, before his departure, had ordered that heavy contributions should be levied upon the city in the following manner:

1. That the magistrates and principal inhabitants should pay a thousand crowns per month for the duke's table.

2. That every house should pay one pistole, which would monthly amount to 18,000 pistoles.

3. That every convent and monastery should pay a donative, proportionable to its riches and rents.
The two last contributions to be appropriated to the maintenance of the army.

The money levied upon the magistrates and principal inhabitants, and upon every house, was paid as soon as demanded; but when the persons applied to the heads of convents and monasteries, they found that the ecclesiastics were not so willing, as other people, to part with their cash.

Of the donatives to be raised by the clergy:

The College of Jesuits to pay  2000 pistoles.

Carmelites, - 1000
Augustins, - 1000
Dominicans, - 1000
M. de Legal sent to the Jesuits a peremptory order to pay the money immediately. The superior of the Jesuits returned for answer that for the clergy to pay money for the army was against all ecclesiastical immunities; and that he knew of no argument which could authorize such a procedure. M. de Legal then sent four companies of dragoons to quarter themselves in the college, with this sarcastic message. "To convince you of the necessity of paying the money, I have sent four substantial arguments to your college, drawn from the system of military logic; and, therefore, hope you will not need any further admonition to direct your conduct."

These proceedings greatly perplexed the Jesuits, who despatched an express to court to the king's confessor, who was of their order; but the dragoons were much more expeditious in plundering and doing mischief, than the courier in his journey: so that the Jesuits, seeing everything going to wreck and ruin, thought proper to adjust the matter amicably, and paid the money before the return of their messenger. The Augustins and Carmelites, taking warning by what had happened to the Jesuits, prudently went and paid the money, and by that means escaped the study of military arguments, and of being taught logic by dragoons.

But the Dominicans, who were all familiars of, or agents dependent on, the Inquisition, imagined that that very circumstance would be their protection; but they were mistaken, for M. de Legal neither feared nor respected the Inquisition. The chief of the Dominicans sent word to the military commander that his order was poor, and had not any money whatever to pay the donative; for, says he, "The whole wealth of the Dominicans consists only in the silver images of the apostles and saints, as large as life, which are placed in our church, and which it would be sacrilege to remove."

This insinuation was meant to terrify the French commander, whom the inquisitors imagined would not dare to be so profane as to wish for the possession of the precious idols.

He, however, sent word that the silver images would make admirable substitutes for money, and would be more in character in his possession, than in that of the Dominicans themselves, "For [said he] while you possess them in the manner you do at present, they stand up in niches, useless and motionless, without being of the least benefit to mankind in general, or even to yourselves; but, when they come into my possession, they shall be useful; I will put them in motion; for I intend to have them coined, when they may travel like the apostles, be beneficial in various places, and circulate for the universal service of mankind."

The inquisitors were astonished at this treatment, which they never expected to receive, even from crowned heads; they therefore determined to deliver their precious images in a solemn procession, that they might excite the people to an insurrection. The Dominican friars were accordingly ordered to march to de Legal's house, with the silver apostles and saints, in a mournful manner, having lighted tapers with them and bitterly crying all the way, "heresy, heresy."

M. de Legal, hearing these proceedings, ordered four companies of grenadiers to line the street which led to his house; each grenadier was ordered to have his loaded fuzee in one hand, and a lighted taper in the other; so that the troops might either repel force with force, or do honor to the farcical solemnity.

The friars did all they could to raise the tumult, but the common people were too much afraid of the troops under arms to obey them; the silver images were, therefore, of necessity delivered up to M. de Legal, who sent them to the mint, and ordered them to be coined immediately.

The project of raising an insurrection having failed, the inquisitors determined to excommunicate M. de Legal, unless he would release their precious silver saints from imprisonment in the mint, before they were melted down, or otherwise mutilated. The French commander absolutely refused to release the images, but said they should certainly travel and do good; upon which the inquisitors drew up the form of excommunication, and ordered their secretary to go and read it to M. de Legal.

The secretary punctually performed his commission, and read the excommunication deliberately and distinctly. The French commander heard it with great patience, and politely told the secretary that he would answer it the next day.

When the secretary of the Inquisition was gone, M. de Legal ordered his own secretary to prepare a form of excommunication, exactly like that sent by the Inquisition; but to make this alteration, instead of his name to put in those of the inquisitors.

The next morning he ordered four regiments under arms, and commanded them to accompany his secretary, and act as he directed.

The secretary went to the Inquisition, and insisted upon admittance, which, after a great deal of altercation, was granted. As soon as he entered, he read, in an audible voice, the excommunication sent by M. de Legal against the inquisitors. The inquisitors were all present, and heard it with astonishment, never having before met with any individual who dared to behave so boldly. They loudly cried out against de Legal, as a heretic; and said, "This was a most daring insult against the Catholic faith." But to surprise them still more, the French secretary told them that they must remove from their present lodgings; for the French commander wanted to quarter the troops in the Inquisition, as it was the most commodious place in the whole city.

The inquisitors exclaimed loudly upon this occasion, when the secretary put them under a strong guard, and sent them to a place appointed by M. de Legal to receive them. The inquisitors, finding how things went, begged that they might be permitted to take their private property, which was granted; and they immediately set out for Madrid, where they made the most bitter complaints to the king; but the monarch told them that he could not grant them any redress, as the injuries they had received were from his grandfather, the king of France's troops, by whose assistance alone he could be firmly established in his kingdom. "Had it been my own troops, [said he] I would have punished them; but as it is, I cannot pretend to exert any authority."

In the mean time, M. de Legal's secretary set open all the doors of the Inquisition, and released the prisoners, who amounted in the whole to four hundred; and among these were sixty beautiful young women, who appeared to form a seraglio for the three principal inquisitors.

This discovery, which laid the enormity of the inquisitors so open, greatly alarmed the archbishop, who desired M. de Legal to send the women to his palace, and he would take proper care of them; and at the same time he published an ecclesiastical censure against all such as should ridicule, or blame, the holy office of the Inquisition.

The French commander sent word to the archbishop, that the prisoners had either run away, or were so securely concealed by their friends, or even by his own officers, that it was impossible for him to send them back again; and, therefore, the Inquisition having committed such atrocious actions, must now put up with their exposure.

Some may suggest, that it is strange crowned heads and eminent nobles did not attempt to crush the power of the Inquisition, and reduce the authority of those ecclesiastical tyrants, from whose merciless fangs neither their families nor themselves were secure.

But astonishing as it is, superstition hath, in this case, always overcome common sense, and custom operated against reason. One prince, indeed, intended to abolish the Inquisition, but he lost his life before he became king, and consequently before he had the power so to do; for the very intimation of his design procured his destruction.

This was that amiable prince Don Carlos, son of Philip the Second, king of Spain, and grandson of the celebrated emperor Charles V. Don Carlos possessed all the good qualities of his grandfather, without any of the bad ones of his father; and was a prince of great vivacity, admirable learning, and the most amiable disposition. He had sense enough to see into the errors of popery, and abhorred the very name of the Inquisition. He inveighed publicly against the institution, ridiculed the affected piety of the inquisitors, did all he could to expose their atrocious deeds, and even declared, that if he ever came to the crown, he would abolish the Inquisition, and exterminate its agents.

These things were sufficient to irritate the inquisitors against the prince: they, accordingly, bent their minds to vengeance, and determined on his destruction.

The inquisitors now employed all their agents and emissaries to spread abroad the most artful insinuations against the prince; and, at length raised such a spirit of discontent among the people that the king was under the necessity of removing Don Carlos from court. Not content with this, they pursued even his friends, and obliged the king likewise to banish Don John, duke of Austria, his own brother, and consequently uncle to the prince; together with the prince of Parma, nephew to the king, and cousin to the prince, because they well knew that both the duke of Austria, and the prince of Parma, had a most sincere and inviolable attachment to Don Carlos.

Some few years after, the prince having shown great lenity and favor to the Protestants in the Netherlands, the Inquisition loudly exclaimed against him, declaring, that as the persons in question were heretics, the prince himself must necessarily be one, since he gave them countenance. In short, they gained so great an ascendency over the mind of the king, who was absolutely a slave to superstition, that, shocking to relate, he sacrificed the feelings of nature to the force of bigotry, and, for fear of incurring the anger of the Inquisition, gave up his only son, passing the sentence of death on him himself.

The prince, indeed, had what was termed an indulgence; that is, he was permitted to choose the manner of his death. Roman-like, the unfortunate young hero chose bleeding and the hot bath; when the veins of his arms and legs were opened, he expired gradually, falling a martyr to the malice of the inquisitors, and the stupid bigotry of his father.

The Persecution of Dr. Aegidio
Dr. Aegidio was educated at the university of Alcala, where he took his several degrees, and particularly applied himself to the study of the sacred Scriptures and school divinity. When the professor of theology died, he was elected into his place, and acted so much to the satisfaction of every one that his reputation for learning and piety was circulated throughout Europe.

Aegidio, however, had his enemies, and these laid a complaint against him to the inquisitors, who sent him a citation, and when he appeared to it, cast him into a dungeon.

As the greatest part of those who belonged to the cathedral church at Seville, and many persons belonging to the bishopric of Dortois highly approved of the doctrines of Aegidio, which they thought perfectly consonant with true religion, they petitioned the emperor in his behalf. Though the monarch had been educated a Roman Catholic, he had too much sense to be a bigot, and therefore sent an immediate order for his enlargement.

He soon after visited the church of Valladolid, and did every thing he could to promote the cause of religion. Returning home he soon after fell sick, and died in an extreme old age.

The inquisitors having been disappointed of gratifying their malice against him while living, determined (as the emperor's whole thoughts were engrossed by a military expedition) to wreak their vengeance on him when dead. Therefore, soon after he was buried, they ordered his remains to be dug out of the grave; and a legal process being carried on, they were condemned to be burnt, which was executed accordingly.

The Persecution of Dr. Constantine
Dr. Constantine, an intimate acquaintance of the already mentioned Dr. Aegidio, was a man of uncommon natural abilities and profound learning; exclusive of several modern tongues, he was acquainted with the Latin, Greek, and Hebrew languages, and perfectly well knew not only the sciences called abstruse, but those arts which come under the denomination of polite literature.

His eloquence rendered him pleasing, and the soundness of his doctrines a profitable preacher; and he was so popular that he never preached but to a crowded audience. He had many opportunities of rising in the Church, but never would take advantage of them; for if a living of greater value than his own was offered him, he would refuse it, saying, "I am content with what I have"; and he frequently preached so forcibly against simony, that many of his superiors, who were not so delicate upon the subject, took umbrage at his doctrines upon that head.

Having been fully confirmed in Protestantism by Dr. Aegidio, he preached boldly such doctrines only as were agreeable to Gospel purity, and uncontaminated by the errors which had at various times crept into the Romish Church. For these reasons he had many enemies among the Roman Catholics, and some of them were fully determined on his destruction.

A worthy gentleman named Scobaria, having erected a school for divinity lectures, appointed Dr. Constantine to be reader therein. He immediately undertook the task, and read lectures, by portions, on the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Canticles; and was beginning to expound the Book of Job, when he was seized by the inquisitors.

Being brought to examination, he answered with such precaution that they could not find any explicit charge against him, but remained doubtful in what manner to proceed, when the following circumstances occurred to determine them.

Dr. Constantine had deposited with a woman named Isabella Martin, several books, which to him were very valuable, but which he knew, in the eyes of the Inquisition, were exceptionable.

This woman having been informed against as a Protestant, was apprehended, and, after a small process, her goods were ordered to be confiscated. Previous, however, to the officers coming to her house, the woman's son had removed away several chests full of the most valuable articles; among these were Dr. Constantine's books.

A treacherous servant gave intelligence of this to the inquisitors, and an officer was despatched to the son to demand the chests. The son, supposing the officer only came for Constantine's books, said, "I know what you come for, and I will fetch them to you immediately." He then fetched Dr. Constantine's books and papers, when the officer was greatly surprised to find what he did not look for. He, however, told the young man that he was glad these books and papers were produced, but nevertheless he must fulfill the end of his commission, which was to carry him and the goods he had embezzled before the inquisitors, which he did accordingly; for the young man knew it would be in vain to expostulate, or resist, and therefore quietly submitted to his fate.

The inquisitors being thus possessed of Constantine's books and writings, now found matter sufficient to form charges against him. When he was brought to a re-examination, they presented one of his papers, and asked him if he knew the handwriting? Perceiving it was his own, he guessed the whole matter, confessed the writing, and justified the doctrine it contained: saying, "In that, and all my other writings, I have never departed from the truth of the Gospel, but have always kept in view the pure precepts of Christ, as He delivered them to mankind."

After being detained upwards of two years in prison, Dr. Constantine was seized with a bloody flux, which put an end to his miseries in this world. The process, however, was carried on against his body, which, at the ensuing auto da fe, was publicly burnt.

The Life of William Gardiner
William Gardiner was born at Bristol, received a tolerable education, and was, at a proper age, placed under the care of a merchant, named Paget.

At the age of twenty-six years, he was, by his master, sent to Lisbon to act as factor. Here he applied himself to the study of the Portuguese language, executed his business with assiduity and despatch, and behaved with the most engaging affability to all persons with whom he had the least concern. He conversed privately with a few, whom he knew to be zealous Protestants; and, at the same time cautiously avoided giving the least offence to any who were Roman Catholics; he had not, however, hitherto gone into any of the popish churches.

A marriage being concluded between the king of Portugal's son, and the Infanta of Spain, upon the wedding-day the bridegroom, bride, and the whole court went to the cathedral church, attended by multitudes of all ranks of people, and among the rest William Gardiner, who stayed during the whole ceremony, and was greatly shocked at the superstitions he saw.

The erroneous worship which he had seen ran strongly in his mind; he was miserable to see a whole country sunk into such idolatry, when the truth of the Gospel might be so easily obtained. He, therefore, took the inconsiderate, though laudable design, into his head, of making a reform in Portugal, or perishing in the attempt; and determined to sacrifice his prudence to his zeal, though he became a martyr upon the occasion.

To this end, he settled all his worldly affairs, paid his debts, closed his books, and consigned over his merchandise. On the ensuing Sunday he went again to the cathedral church, with a New Testament in his hand, and placed himself near the altar.

The king and the court soon appeared, and a cardinal began Mass, at that part of the ceremony in which the people adore the wafer. Gardiner could hold out no longer, but springing towards the cardinal, he snatched the host from him, and trampled it under his feet.

This action amazed the whole congregation, and one person, drawing a dagger, wounded Gardiner in the shoulder, and would, by repeating the blow, have finished him, had not the king called to him to desist.

Gardiner, being carried before the king, the monarch asked him what countryman he was: to which he replied, "I am an Englishman by birth, a Protestant by religion, and a merchant by occupation. What I have done is not out of contempt to your royal person, God forbid it should, but out of an honest indignation, to see the ridiculous superstitious and gross idolatries practiced here."

The king, thinking that he had been stimulated by some other person to act as he had done, demanded who was his abetter, to which he replied, "My own conscience alone. I would not hazard what I have done for any man living, but I owe that and all other services to God."

Gardiner was sent to prison, and a general order issued to apprehend all Englishmen in Lisbon. This order was in a great measure put into execution, (some few escaping) and many innocent persons were tortured to make them confess if they knew any thing of the matter; in particular, a person who resided in the same house with Gardiner was treated with unparalleled barbarity to make him confess something which might throw a light upon the affair.

Gardiner himself was then tormented in the most excruciating manner; but in the midst of all his torments he gloried in the deed. Being ordered for death, a large fire was kindled near a gibbet, Gardiner was drawn up to the gibbet by pulleys, and then let down near the fire, but not so close as to touch it; for they burnt or rather roasted him by slow degrees. Yet he bore his sufferings patiently and resigned his soul to the Lord cheerfully.

It is observable that some of the sparks that were blown from the fire, (which consumed Gardiner) towards the haven, burnt one of the king's ships of war, and did other considerable damage. The Englishmen who were taken up on this occasion were, soon after Gardiner's death, all discharged, except the person who resided in the same house with him, who was detained two years before he could procure his liberty.

An Account of the Life and Sufferings of Mr. William Lithgow, a Native of Scotland
This gentleman was descended from a good family, and having a natural propensity for travelling, he rambled, when very young, over the northern and western islands; after which he visited France, Germany, Switzerland, and Spain. He set out on his travels in the month of March, 1609, and the first place he went to was Paris, where he stayed for some time. He then prosecuted his travels through Germany and other parts, and at length arrived at Malaga, in Spain, the seat of all his misfortunes.

During his residence here, he contracted with the master of a French ship for his passage to Alexandria, but was prevented from going by the following circumstances. In the evening of the seventeenth of October, 1620, the English fleet, at that time on a cruise against the Algerine rovers, came to anchor before Malaga, which threw the people of the town into the greatest consternation, as they imagined them to be Turks. The morning, however, discovered the mistake, and the governor of Malaga, perceiving the cross of England in their colors, went on board Sir Robert Mansel's ship, who commanded on that expedition, and after staying some time returned, and silenced the fears of the people.

The next day many persons from on board the fleet came ashore. Among these were several well known by Mr. Lithgow, who, after reciprocal compliments, spent some days together in festivity and the amusements of the town. They then invited Mr. Lithgow to go on board, and pay his respects to the admiral. He accordingly accepted the invitation, was kindly received by him, and detained till the next day when the fleet sailed. The admiral would willingly have taken Mr. Lithgow with him to Algiers; but having contracted for his passage to Alexandria, and his baggage, etc., being in the town, he could not accept the offer.

As soon as Mr. Lithgow got on shore, he proceeded towards his lodgings by a private way, (being to embark the same night for Alexandria) when, in passing through a narrow uninhabited street, he found himself suddenly surrounded by nine sergeants, or officers, who threw a black cloak over him, and forcibly conducted him to the governor's house. After some little time the governor appeared when Mr. Lithgow earnestly begged he might be informed of the cause of such violent treatment. The governor only answered by shaking his head, and gave orders that the prisoner should be strictly watched until he (the governor) returned from his devotions; directing, at the same time, that the captain of the town, the alcade major, and town notary, should be summoned to appear at his examination, and that all this should be done with the greatest secrecy, to prevent the knowledge reaching the ears of the English merchants then residing in the town.

These orders were strictly discharged, and on the governor's return, he, with the officers, having seated themselves, Mr. Lithgow was brought before them for examination. The governor began by asking several questions, namely, of what country he was, whither bound, and how long he had been in Spain. The prisoner, after answering these and other questions, was conducted to a closet, where, in a short space of time, he was visited by the town captain, who inquired whether he had ever been at Seville, or was lately come from thence; and patting his cheeks with an air of friendship, conjured him to tell the truth, "For (said he) your very countenance shows there is some hidden matter in your mind, which prudence should direct you to disclose." Finding himself, however, unable to extort any thing from the prisoner, he left him, and reported the same to the governor and the other officers; on which Mr. Lithgow was again brought before them, a general accusation was laid against him, and he was compelled to swear that he would give true answers to such questions as should be asked him.

The governor proceeded to inquire the quality of the English commander, and the prisoner's opinion what were the motives that prevented his accepting an invitation from him to come on shore. He demanded, likewise, the names of the English captains in the squadron, and what knowledge he had of the embarkation, or preparation for it before his departure from England. The answers given to the several questions asked were set down in writing by the notary; but the junto seemed surprised at his denying any knowledge of the fitting out of the fleet, particularly the governor, who said he lied; that he was a traitor and a spy, and came directly from England to favor and assist the designs that were projected against Spain, and that he had been for that purpose nine months in Seville, in order to procure intelligence of the time the Spanish navy was expected from the Indies. They exclaimed against his familiarity with the officers of the fleet, and many other English gentlemen, between whom, they said, unusual civilities had passed, but all these transactions had been carefully noticed.

Besides to sum up the whole, and put the truth past all doubt, they said he came from a council of war, held that morning on board the admiral's ship, in order to put in execution the orders assigned him. They upbraided him with being accessory to the burning of the island of St. Thomas, in the West Indies. "Wherefore (said they) these Lutherans, and sons of the devil, ought to have no credit given to what they say or swear."

In vain did Mr. Lithgow endeavor to obviate every accusation laid against him, and to obtain belief from his prejudiced judges. He begged permission to send for his cloak bag which contained his papers, and might serve to show his innocence. This request they complied with, thinking it would discover some things of which they were ignorant. The cloak bag was accordingly brought, and being opened, among other things, was found a license from King James the First, under the sign manual, setting forth the bearer's intention to travel into Egypt; which was treated by the haughty Spaniards with great contempt. The other papers consisted of passports, testimonials, etc., of persons of quality. All these credentials, however, seemed rather to confirm than abate the suspicions of these prejudiced judges, who, after seizing all the prisoner's papers, ordered him again to withdraw.

In the meantime a consultation was held to fix the place where the prisoner should be confined. The alcade, or chief judge, was for putting him into the town prison; but this was objected to, particularly by the corregidor, who said, in Spanish, "In order to prevent the knowledge of his confinement from reaching his countrymen, I will take the matter on myself, and be answerable for the consequences"; upon which it was agreed that he should be confined in the governor's house with the greatest secrecy.

This matter being determined, one of the sergeants went to Mr. Lithgow, and begged his money, with liberty to search him. As it was needless to make any resistance, the prisoner quietly complied, when the sergeant (after rifling his pockets of eleven ducatoons) stripped him to his shirt; and searching his breeches he found, inclosed in the waistland, two canvass bags, containing one hundred and thirty-seven pieces of gold. The sergeant immediately took the money to the corregidor, who, after having told it over, ordered him to clothe the prisoner, and shut him up close until after supper.

About midnight, the sergeant and two Turkish slaves released Mr. Lithgow from his then confinement, but it was to introduce him to one much more horrible. They conducted him through several passages, to a chamber in a remote part of the palace, towards the garden, where they loaded him with irons, and extended his legs by means of an iron bar above a yard long, the weight of which was so great that he could neither stand nor sit, but was obliged to lie continually on his back. They left him in this condition for some time, when they returned with a refreshment of food, consisting of a pound of boiled mutton and a loaf, together with a small quantity of wine; which was not only the first, but the best and last of the kind, during his confinement in this place. After delivering these articles, the sergeant locked the door, and left Mr. Lithgow to his own private contemplations.

The next day he received a visit from the governor, who promised him his liberty, with many other advantages, if he would confess being a spy; but on his protesting that he was entirely innocent, the governor left him in a rage, saying, 'He should see him no more until further torments constrained him to confess'; commanding the keeper, to whose care he was committed, that he should permit no person whatever to have access to, or commune with him; that his sustenance should not exceed three ounces of musty bread, and a pint of water every second day; that he shall be allowed neither bed, pillow, nor coverlid. "Close up (said he) this window in his room with lime and stone, stop up the holes of the door with double mats: let him have nothing that bears any likeness to comfort." These, and several orders of the like severity, were given to render it impossible for his condition to be known to those of the English nation.

In this wretched and melancholy state did poor Lithgow continue without seeing any person for several days, in which time the governor received an answer to a letter he had written, relative to the prisoner, from Madrid; and, pursuant to the instructions given him, began to put in practice the cruelties devised, which were hastened, because Christmas holy-days approached, it being then the forty-seventh day since his imprisonment.

About two o'clock in the morning, he heard the noise of a coach in the street, and sometime after heard the opening of the prison doors, not having had any sleep for two nights; hunger, pain, and melancholy reflections having prevented him from taking any repose.

Soon after the prison doors were opened, the nine sergeants, who had first seized him, entered the place where he lay, and without uttering a word, conducted him in his irons through the house into the street, where a coach waited, and into which they laid him at the bottom on his back, not being able to sit. Two of the sergeants rode with him, and the rest walked by the coach side, but all observed the most profound silence. They drove him to a vinepress house, about a league from the town, to which place a rack had been privately conveyed before; and here they shut him up for that night.

At daybreak the next morning, arrived the governor and the alcade, into whose presence Mr. Lithgow was immediately brought to undergo another examination. The prisoner desired he might have an interpreter, which was allowed to strangers by the laws of that country, but this was refused, nor would they permit him to appeal to Madrid, the superior court of judicature. After a long examination, which lasted from morning until night, there appeared in all his answers so exact a conformity with what he had before said, that they declared he had learned them by heart, there not being the least prevarication. They, however, pressed him again to make a full discovery; that is, to accuse himself of crimes never committed, the governor adding, "You are still in my power; I can set you free if you comply, if not, I must deliver you to the alcade." Mr. Lithgow still persisting in his innocence, the governor ordered the notary to draw up a warrant for delivering him to the alcade to be tortured.

In consequence of this he was conducted by the sergeants to the end of a stone gallery, where the rack was placed. The encarouador, or executioner, immediately struck off his irons, which put him to very great pains, the bolts being so closely riveted that the sledge hammer tore away half an inch of his heel, in forcing off the bolt; the anguish of which, together with his weak condition, (not having the least sustenance for three days) occasioned him to groan bitterly; upon which the merciless alcade said, "Villain, traitor, this is but the earnest of what you shall endure."

When his irons were off, he fell on his knees, uttering a short prayer, that God would be pleased to enable him to be steadfast, and undergo courageously the grievous trial he had to encounter. The alcade and notary having placed themselves in chairs, he was stripped naked, and fixed upon the rack, the office of these gentlemen being to be witness of, and set down the confessions and tortures endured by the delinquent.

It is impossible to describe all the various tortures inflicted upon him.

Suffice it to say that he lay on the rack for above five hours, during which time he received above sixty different tortures of the most hellish nature; and had they continued them a few minutes longer, he must have inevitably perished.

These cruel persecutors being satisfied for the present, the prisoner was taken from the rack, and his irons being again put on, he was conducted to his former dungeon, having received no other nourishment than a little warm wine, which was given him rather to prevent his dying, and reserve him for future punishments, than from any principle of charity or compassion.

As a confirmation of this, orders were given for a coach to pass every morning before day by the prison, that the noise made by it might give fresh terrors and alarms to the unhappy prisoner, and deprive him of all possibility of obtaining the least repose.

He continued in this horrid situation, almost starved for want of the common necessaries to preserve his wretched existence, until Christmas day, when he received some relief from Mariane, waiting-woman to the governor's lady. This woman having obtained leave to visit him, carried with her some refreshments, consisting of honey, sugar, raisins, and other articles; and so affected was she at beholding his situation that she wept bitterly, and at her departure expressed the greatest concern at not being able to give him further assistance.

In this loathsome prison was poor Mr. Lithgow kept until he was almost devoured by vermin. They crawled about his beard, lips, eyebrows, etc., so that he could scarce open his eyes; and his mortification was increased by not having the use of his hands or legs to defend himself, from his being so miserably maimed by the tortures. So cruel was the governor, that he even ordered the vermin to be swept on him twice in every eight days. He, however, obtained some little mitigation of this part of his punishment, from the humanity of a Turkish slave that attended him, who, when he could do it with safety, destroyed the vermin, and contributed every refreshment to him that laid in his power.

From this slave Mr. Lithgow at length received information which gave him little hopes of ever being released, but, on the contrary, that he should finish his life under new tortures. The substance of this information was that an English seminary priest, and a Scotch cooper, had been for some time employed by the governor to translate from the English into the Spanish language, all his books and observations; and that it was commonly said in the governor's house, that he was an arch-heretic.

This information greatly alarmed him, and he began, not without reason, to fear that they would soon finish him, more especially as they could neither by torture or any other means, bring him to vary from what he had all along said at his different examinations.

Two days after he had received the above information, the governor, an inquisitor, and a canonical priest, accompanied by two Jesuits, entered his dungeon, and being seated, after several idle questions, the inquisitor asked Mr. Lithgow if he was a Roman Catholic, and acknowledged the pope's supremacy? He answered that he neither was the one nor did the other, adding that he was surprised at being asked such questions, since it was expressly stipulated by the articles of peace between England and Spain that none of the English subjects should be liable to the Inquisition, or any way molested by them on account of diversity in religion, etc. In the bitterness of his soul he made use of some warm expressions not suited to his circumstances: "As you have almost murdered me (said he) for pretended treason, so now you intend to make a martyr of me for my religion." He also expostulated with the governor on the ill return he made to the king of England, (whose subject he was) for the princely humanity exercised towards the Spaniards in 1588, when their armada was shipwrecked on the Scotch coast, and thousands of the Spaniards found relief, who must otherwise have miserably perished.

The governor admitted the truth of what Mr. Lithgow said, but replied with a haughty air that the king, who then only ruled Scotland, was actuated more by fear than love, and therefore did not deserve any thanks. One of the Jesuits said there was no faith to be kept with heretics. The inquisitor then rising, addressed himself to Mr. Lithgow in the following words: "You have been taken up as a spy, accused of treachery, and tortured, as we acknowledge, innocently:

(which appears by the account lately received from Madrid of the intentions of the English) yet it was the divine power that brought those judgments upon you, for presumptuously treating the blessed miracle of Loretto with ridicule, and expressing yourself in your writings irreverently of his holiness, the great agent and Christ's vicar upon earth; therefore you are justly fallen into our hands by their special appointment: thy books and papers are miraculously translated by the assistance of Providence influencing thy own countrymen."

This trumpery being ended, they gave the prisoner eight days to consider and resolve whether he would become a convert to their religion; during which time the inquisitor told him he, with other religious orders, would attend, to give him such assistance thereto as he might want. One of the Jesuits said, (first making the sign of the cross upon his breast), "My son, behold, you deserve to be burnt alive; but by the grace of our lady of Loretto, whom you have blasphemed we will both save your soul and body."

In the morning the inquisitor, with three other ecclesiastics, returned, when the former asked the prisoner what difficulties he had on his conscience that retarded his conversion; to which he answered, 'he had not any doubts in his mind, being confident in the promises of Christ, and assuredly believing his revealed will signified in the Gospels, as professed in the reformed Catholic Church, being confirmed by grace, and having infallible assurance thereby of the Christian faith.' To these words the inquisitor replied, "Thou art no Christian, but an absurd heretic, and without conversion a member of perdition." The prisoner then told him that it was not consistent with the nature and essence of religion and charity to convince by opprobrious speeches, racks, and torments, but by arguments deduced from the Scriptures; and that all other methods would with him be totally ineffectual.

The inquisitor was so enraged at the replies made by the prisoner, that he struck him on the face, used many abusive speeches, and attempted to stab him, which he had certainly done had he not been prevented by the Jesuits; and from this time he never again visited the prisoner.

The next day the two Jesuits returned, and putting on a very grave, supercilious air, the superior asked him what resolution he had taken. To which Mr. Lithgow replied that he was already resolved, unless he could show substantial reasons to make him alter his opinion. The superior, after a pedantic display of their seven sacraments, the intercession of saints, transubstantiation, etc., boasted greatly of their Church, her antiquity, universality, and uniformity; all of which Mr. Lithgow denied: "For (said he) the profession of the faith I hold hath been ever since the first days of the apostles, and Christ had ever his own Church (however obscure) in the greatest time of your darkness."

The Jesuits, finding their arguments had not the desired effect, that torments could not shake his constancy, nor even the fear of the cruel sentence he had reason to expect would be pronounced and executed on him, after severe menaces, left him. On the eighth day after, being the last of their Inquisition, when sentence is pronounced, they returned again, but quite altered both in their words and behavior after repeating much of the same kind of arguments as before, they with seeming tears in their eyes, pretended they were sorry from their heart he must be obliged to undergo a terrible death, but above all, for the loss of his most precious soul; and falling on their knees, cried out, "Convert, convert, O dear brother, for our blessed Lady's sake convert!" To which he answered, "I fear neither death nor fire, being prepared for both."

The first effects Mr. Lithgow felt of the determination of this bloody tribunal was, a sentence to receive that night eleven different tortures, and if he did not die in the execution of them, (which might be reasonably expected from the maimed and disjointed condition he was in) he was, after Easter holy-days, to be carried to Grenada, and there burnt to ashes. The first part of this sentence was executed with great barbarity that night; and it pleased God to give him strength both of body and mind, to stand fast to the truth, and to survive the horrid punishments inflicted on him.

After these barbarians had glutted themselves for the present, with exercising on the unhappy prisoner the most distinguished cruelties, they again put irons on, and conveyed him to his former dungeon. The next morning he received some little comfort from the Turkish slave before mentioned, who secretly brought him, in his shirt sleeve, some raisins and figs, which he licked up in the best manner his strength would permit with his tongue. It was to this slave Mr. Lithgow attributed his surviving so long in such a wretched situation; for he found means to convey some of these fruits to him twice every week. It is very extraordinary, and worthy of note, that this poor slave, bred up from his infancy, according to the maxims of his prophet and parents, in the greatest detestation of Christians, should be so affected at the miserable situation of Mr. Lithgow that he fell ill, and continued so for upwards of forty days. During this period Mr. Lithgow was attended by a negro woman, a slave, who found means to furnish him with refreshments still more amply than the Turk, being conversant in the house and family. She brought him every day some victuals, and with it some wine in a bottle.

The time was now so far elapsed, and the horrid situation so truly loathsome, that Mr. Lithgow waited with anxious expectation for the day, which, by putting an end to his life, would also end his torments. But his melancholy expectations were, by the interposition of Providence, happily rendered abortive, and his deliverance obtained from the following circumstances.

It happened that a Spanish gentleman of quality came from Grenada to Malaga, who being invited to an entertainment by the governor, informed him of what had befallen Mr. Lithgow from the time of his being apprehended as a spy, and described the various sufferings he had endured. He likewise told him that after it was known the prisoner was innocent, it gave him great concern. That on this account he would gladly have released him, restored his money and papers, and made some atonement for the injuries he had received, but that, upon an inspection into his writings, several were found of a very blasphemous nature, highly reflecting on their religion, that on his refusing to abjure these heretical opinions, he was turned over to the Inquisition, by whom he was finally condemned.

While the governor was relating this tragical tale, a Flemish youth (servant to the Spanish gentleman) who waited at the table, was struck with amazement and pity at the sufferings of the stranger described. On his return to his master's lodgings he began to revolve in his mind what he had heard, which made such an impression on him that he could not rest in his bed. In the short slumbers he had, his imagination pointed to him the person described, on the rack, and burning in the fire. In this anxiety he passed the night; and when the morning came, without disclosing his intentions to any person whatever, he went into the town, and inquired for an English factor. He was directed to the house of a Mr. Wild, to whom he related the whole of what he had heard pass the preceding evening, between his master and the governor, but could not tell Mr. Lithgow's name. Mr. Wild, however, conjectured it was he, by the servant's remembering the circumstance of his being a traveller, and his having had some acquaintance with him.

On the departure of the Flemish servant, Mr. Wild immeidately sent for the other English factors, to whom he related all the paritculars relative to their unfortunate countryman. After a short consultation it was agreed that an information of the whole affair should be sent, by express, to Sir Walter Aston, the English ambassador to the king of Spain, then at Madrid. This was accordingly done, and the ambassador having presented a memorial to the king and council of Spain, obtained an order for Mr. Lithgow's enlargement, and his delivery to the English factor. This order was directed to the governor of Malaga; and was received with great dislike and surprise by the whole assembly of the bloody Inquisition.

Mr. Lithgow was released from his confinement on the eve of Easter Sunday, when he was carried from his dungeon on the back of the slave who had attended him, to the house of one Mr. Bosbich, where all proper comforts were given him. It fortunately happened that there was at this time a squadron of English ships in the road, commanded by Sir Richard Hawkins, who being informed of the past sufferings and present situation of Mr. Lithgow, came the next day ashore, with a proper guard, and received him from the merchants. He was instantly carried in blankets on board the Vanguard, and three days after was removed to another ship, by direction of the general Sir Robert Mansel, who ordered that he should have proper care taken of him. The factor presented him with clothes, and all necessary provisions, besides which they gave him two hundred reals in silver; and Sir Richard Hawkins sent him two double pistoles.

Before his departure from the Spanish coast, Sir Richard Hawkins demanded the delivery of his papers, money, books, etc., but could not obtain any satisfactory answer on that head.

We cannot help making a pause here to reflect how manifestly Providence interfered in behalf of this poor man, when he was just on the brink of destruction; for by his sentence, from which there was no appeal, he would have been taken, in a few days, to Grenada, and burnt to ashes; and that a poor ordinary servant, who had not the least knowledge of him, nor was any ways interested in his preservation, should risk the displeasure of his master, and hazard his own life, to disclose a thing of so momentous and perilous a nature, to a strange gentleman, on whose secrecy depended his own existence. By such secondary means does Providence frequently interfere in behalf of the virtuous and oppressed; of which this is a most distinguished example.

After lying twelve days in the road, the ship weighed anchor, and in about two months arrived safe at Deptford. The next morning, Mr. Lithgow was carried on a feather bed to Theobalds, in Hertfordshire, where at that time was the king and royal family. His majesty happened to be that day engaged in hunting, but on his return in the evening, Mr. Lithgow was presented to him, and related the particulars of his sufferings, and his happy delivery. The king was so affected at the narrative, that he expressed the deepest concern, and gave orders that he should be sent to Bath, and his wants properly supplied from his royal munificence. By these means, under God, after some time, Mr. Lithgow was restored from the most wretched spectacle, to a great share of health and strength; but he lost the use of his left arm and several of the smaller bones were so crushed and broken, as to be ever after rendered useless.

Notwithstanding that every effort was used, Mr. Lithgow could never obtain any part of his money or effects, although his majesty and the ministers of state interested themselves in his behalf. Gondamore, the Spanish ambassador, indeed, promised that all his effects should be restored, with the addition of 1000 Pounds English money, as some atonement for the tortures he had undergone, which last was to be paid him by the governor of Malaga. These engagements, however, were but mere promises; and although the king was a kind of guarantee for the well performance of them, the cunning Spaniard found means to elude the same. He had, indeed, too great a share of influence in the English council during the time of that pacific reign, when England suffered herself to be bullied into slavish compliance by most of the states and kings in Europe.

The Story of Galileo
The most eminent men of science and philosophy of the day did not escape the watchful eye of this cruel despotism. Galileo, the chief astronomer and mathematician of his age, was the first who used the telescope successfully in solving the movements of the heavenly bodies. He discovered that the sun is the center of motion around which the earth and various planets revolve. For making this great discovery Galileo was brought before the Inquisition, and for a while was in great danger of being put to death.

After a long and bitter review of Galileo's writings, in which many of his most important discoveries were condemned as errors, the charge of the inquisitors went on to declare, "That you, Galileo, have upon account of those things which you have written and confessed, subjected yourself to a strong suspicion of heresy in this Holy Office, by believing, and holding to be true, a doctrine which is false, and contrary to the sacred and divine Scripture- viz., that the sun is the center of the orb of the earth, and does not move from the east to the west; and that the earth moves, and is not the center of the world."

In order to save his life. Galileo admitted that he was wrong in thinking that the earth revolved around the sun, and swore that-"For the future, I will never more say, or assert, either by word or writing, anything that shall give occasion for a like suspicion." But immediately after taking this forced oath he is said to have whispered to a friend standing near, "The earth moves, for all that."

Summary of the Inquisition
Of the multitudes who perished by the Inquisoition throughout the world, no authentic record is now discoverable. But wherever popery had power, there was the tribunal. It had been planted even in the east, and the Portuguese Inquisition of Goa was, until within these few years, fed with many an agony. South America was partitioned into provinces of the Inquisition; and with a ghastly mimickry of the crimes of the mother state, the arrivals of viceroys, and the other popular celebrations were thought imperfect without an auto da fe. The Netherlands were one scene of slaughter from the time of the decree which planted the Inquisition among them. In Spain the calculation is more attainable. Each of the seventeen tribunals during a long period burned annually, on an average, ten miserable beings! We are to recollect that this number was in a country where persecution had for ages abolished all religious differences, and where the difficulty was not to find the stake, but the offering. Yet, even in Spain, thus gleaned of all heresy, the Inquisition could still swell its lists of murders to thirty-two thousand! The numbers burned in effigy, or condemned to penance, punishments generally equivalent to exile, confiscation, and taint of blood, to all ruin but the mere loss of worthless life, amounted to three hundred and nine thousand. But the crowds who perished in dungeons of torture, of confinement, and of broken hearts, the millions of dependent lives made utterly helpless, or hurried to the grave by the death of the victims, are beyond all register; or recorded only before HIM, who has sworn that "He that leadeth into captivity, shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword."

Such was the Inquisition, declared by the Spirit of God to be at once the offspring and the image of the popedom. To feel the force of the parentage, we must look to the time. In the thirteenth century, the po
 
I think some of that got cut off. I read a lot of it, but admittedly I didn't get to it all yet. The Inquisition and the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages are good examples of how religion organizations can be twisted into a device for control, hysteria, and power.
 
“The corruption of the best is the worst.â€Â


I agree that the inquisition was sinful but I think most people do not know the full context of the time period. They just hear one side of the story. It reminds me a lot of how militant/fundamentalist Muslims use the sins of Abu Ghraib prison to justify the belief that America is the great satan. Protestants had their own inquisition but we never hear about this. Only Catholic wrong doings. Here is a link that gives information of the Protestant inquisition:

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ247.HTM


If you are interested in the other side of the story about the Catholic inquisition go here:

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/h ... h0027.html
 
Cure of Ars,

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I believe all of the persecution going on in the middle ages (and persecution still happens today, BTW) was horrible.

tzalam2,

Although knowing history is important, (yes, the torture Christians endured was ABSOLUTELY horrible) we need to be mindful not to blame the Catholic people of today for what happened back then. (I'm not saying that's what you were doing by posting this, just pointing that out) That would be like blaming me because some white folks 150 years ago owned slaves, or blaming Germans of today for what Hitler did. It's just illogical.




Christians should be concerned today with the spiritual battle that rages on all around us (Ephesians 6:10-17) and focus on planting seeds so that others may come to know Christ and be saved.


By the way....I am neither Catholic or Protestant. I am Christian and Christian only. Just felt compelled to give my .02 cents on the matter.

Romans 12:17-21

In Christian love,
 
There have been inquisitions and religious "purgations" on both sides of the fence. An understanding of the time period is important...
The first inquisition was established in 1184 in France in response to the Catharist heresy. The Catharists combined gnosticism with manicheaism, believed in two gods--a "good" and "evil" God, they scorned marriage but permitted fornication, and encouraged ritualistic suicide. Needless to say, in feudal society they were extremely morally and politically dangerous individuals. Even a strong opponent of Catholicism, Lea, admits, ""The cause of orthodoxy was the cause of progress and civilization. Had Catharism become dominant, or even had it been allowed to exist on equal terms, its influence could not have failed to become disastrous." "
Then there were the Roman (least active) and more famous Spanish Inquistion.
Then there was the inquisition resulting from the Reformation during which thousands of irish and english Catholics were killed. Calvin not only permitted , but in some cases ordered "heretics" to be executed.
Catholics and protestants both felt they were doing what was necessary to preserve their religion.

If anything, the inquisitions (on both sides) prove that Christ came to save sinners as he himself told us! What is the point of bringing the events of the past up over and over again. You are not responsible for the actions of your ancestors at Geneva, I am not to blame for the spanish inquistion.
 
Then there was the inquisition resulting from the Reformation during which thousands of irish and english Catholics were killed.

This, if true, doesn't hold a candle to the more than sixty million tortured, maimed and killed by Catholic Rome during the darkest days known to man when the RCC was in her monsterous and sadistic glory. Is it not true that the RCC cannot err? Is it not true that she never changes (semper eadem)? Knowing that, I submit that if Rome ever got back the temporal power she once had, this country would experience a blood bath second to the Inquisition that went on for 600 years in Europe while a death hold was on everyone not bound to this blasphemous organization.Speaking of "never changing" I perceive much has changed about her over the annals of time with each pope adding to the doctrines and initiating his own papal bulls to leave his own mark in history.

1. Prayers for the dead 300 A.D.
2. Sign of the Cross 310 A.D.
3. Wax votive candles 320 A.D.
4. Veneration of saints and angels 375 A.D.
5. Mary declared "Mother of God" 431 A.D.
6. Priests begin to wear vestments 500 A.D.
7. Worship in Latin 600 A.D.
8. Temporal power of Papacy granted by Phocas 610 A.D.
9. Feast days in honour of Mary 650 A.D.
10. Kissing of the Pope's feet 709 A.D.
11. Temporal power of Papacy confirmed 750 A.D.
12. Adoration of Mary, saints, images and relics
legalised by 2nd Council of Nicea 788 A.D.
13. Holy water 850 A.D.
14. Veneration of St. Joseph 890 A.D.
15. Baptism of bells 965 A.D.
16. Canonization of dead saints 995 A.D.
17. Fasting on Fridays and Lent 998 A.D.
18. Rosary beads 1090 A.D.
19. Pope Boniface VII decrees celibacy of priests 1097 A.D.
20. Inquisition of heretics 1184 A.D.
21. Sale of Indulgences 1190 A.D.
22. Transubstantiation of the wafer 1215 A.D.
23. Confession to a priest 1215 A.D.
24. Adoration of the host (Wafer God) 1220 A.D.
25. Bible forbidden and placed on index of forbidden books --
by Council of Valencia 1229 A.D.
26. Red hats for Cardinals 1245 A.D.
27. Feast of Corpus Christi 1264 A.D.
28. The Miraculous scapular 1287 A.D.
29. Roman church as the only true church 1303 A.D.
30. Cup forbidden to laity at Communion 1415 A.D.
31. Purgatory decreed by Council of Florence 1439 A.D.
32. Doctrine of the seven sacraments 1439 A.D.
33. Tradition of equal authority to the Bible 1545 A.D.
34. Justification by works and not faith alone 1545 A.D.
35. Creed of Pope Plus IV makes all the unscriptural
doctrines of Council of Trent binding 1560 A.D.
36. Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary 1854 A.D.
37. Papal infallibility 1870 A.D.
38. Papal decree on mixed marriages -- all marriages not
celebrated by a Roman priest declared null and void 1908 A.D.
39. Pope reaffirms Mary as Mother of God 1931 A.D.
40. Assumption of the Virgin Mary 1950 A.D.

I firmly believe in my heart that from the Crusades to the Inquisition period, Catholic Rome initiated more atrocities than what we've read of the Inquisition. Read the Vatican Holocaust online. This wasn't the 16th century but the 1940's. When Rome drops the veneration of saints, dumps the mass, sheds their pagan garb and symbolism and stops bowing the knee to a cracker paraded down the street, and ceases the reptitious rosary prayers, then maybe she'll change for the good...I doubt it will ever happen as this is "tradition" and she's infalliable of course.

http://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html


[/b]
 
D46...I saw your "Sola Scriptura" handle.

I think it's interesting that you deride the establishment(RCC) as evil yet it was that same establishment which waded through the numerous epistles and gospels and revelations to choose that which comprises your "scriptura"

BTW...it roughly occured here...

1. Prayers for the dead 300 A.D.
2. Sign of the Cross 310 A.D.
3. Wax votive candles 320 A.D.
4. Veneration of saints and angels 375 A.D.
<----------------------------Canon Determined
5. Mary declared "Mother of God" 431 A.D.
6. Priests begin to wear vestments 500 A.D.
7. Worship in Latin 600 A.D.
8. Temporal power of Papacy granted by Phocas 610 A.D.
9. Feast days in honour of Mary 650 A.D.
10. Kissing of the Pope's feet 709 A.D.
11. Temporal power of Papacy confirmed 750 A.D.
12. Adoration of Mary, saints, images and relics
legalised by 2nd Council of Nicea 788 A.D.
13. Holy water 850 A.D.
14. Veneration of St. Joseph 890 A.D.
15. Baptism of bells 965 A.D.
16. Canonization of dead saints 995 A.D.
17. Fasting on Fridays and Lent 998 A.D.
18. Rosary beads 1090 A.D.
19. Pope Boniface VII decrees celibacy of priests 1097 A.D.
20. Inquisition of heretics 1184 A.D.
21. Sale of Indulgences 1190 A.D.
22. Transubstantiation of the wafer 1215 A.D.
23. Confession to a priest 1215 A.D.
24. Adoration of the host (Wafer God) 1220 A.D.
25. Bible forbidden and placed on index of forbidden books --
by Council of Valencia 1229 A.D.
26. Red hats for Cardinals 1245 A.D.
27. Feast of Corpus Christi 1264 A.D.
28. The Miraculous scapular 1287 A.D.
29. Roman church as the only true church 1303 A.D.
30. Cup forbidden to laity at Communion 1415 A.D.
31. Purgatory decreed by Council of Florence 1439 A.D.
32. Doctrine of the seven sacraments 1439 A.D.
33. Tradition of equal authority to the Bible 1545 A.D.
34. Justification by works and not faith alone 1545 A.D.
35. Creed of Pope Plus IV makes all the unscriptural
doctrines of Council of Trent binding 1560 A.D.
36. Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary 1854 A.D.
37. Papal infallibility 1870 A.D.
38. Papal decree on mixed marriages -- all marriages not
celebrated by a Roman priest declared null and void 1908 A.D.
39. Pope reaffirms Mary as Mother of God 1931 A.D.
40. Assumption of the Virgin Mary 1950 A.D.

Of course...that wasn't the end of it, but where the majority was determined....are you comfortable allowing the saint venerating and dead praying establishment deciding what comprises your canon?

Since they did the sign of the cross while they choose your inspired canon, shouldn't you do the same?

BTW-welcome to the forums...I don't believe we've had the pleasure yet.
 
60 million is a ridiculous number considering the population of the countries involved in the Inquisition(s) did not reach near 100 million until modern times, and one third of the population at the time was killed off by the plague.

The modern historiography of the Inquisition, most of it by non-Catholic historians, has resulted in a careful, relatively precise, and on the whole rather moderate image of the institution, some of the most important works being; Edward Peters, Inquisition; Paul F. Grendler, The Roman Inquisition and the Venetian Press; John Tedeschi, The Prosecution of Heresy; and Henry Kamen, The Spanish Inquisition.

Some of their conclusions are:


-The inquisitors tended to be professional legists and bureaucrats who adhered closely to rules and procedures rather than to whatever personal feelings they may have had on the subject.
-Those roles and procedures were not in themselves unjust. They required that evidence be presented, allowed the accused to defend themselves, and discarded dubious evidence.
Thus in most cases the verdict was a “just†one in that it seemed to follow from the evidence.
-A number of cases were dismissed, or the proceedings terminated at some point, when the inquisitors became convinced that the evidence was not reliable.
-Torture was only used in a small minority of cases and was allowed only when there was strong evidence that the defendant was lying. In some instances (for example, Carlo Ginzburg's study of the Italian district of Friulia) there is no evidence of the use of torture at all.
-Only a small percentage of those convicted were executed  at most two to three percent in a given region. Many more were sentenced to life in prison, but this was often commuted after a few years. The most common punishment was some form of public penance.
-The dreaded Spanish Inquisition in particular has been grossly exaggerated. It did not persecute millions of people, as is often claimed, but approximately 44,000 between 1540 and 1700, of whom less than two per cent were executed.
-The celebrated case of Joan of Arc was a highly irregular inquisitorial procedure rigged by her political enemies, the English. When proper procedures were followed some years later, the Inquisition exonerated her posthumously.
-Although the Inquisition did prosecute witchcraft, as did almost every secular government, the Roman inquisitors by the later sixteenth century were beginning to express serious doubts about most such accusations.
- Elizabeth I burned heretics, as did her successor James I, as did virtually every Protestant government in Europe until the middle of the seventeenth century. What did give the Inquisition greater impact was that it was well organized and at least in theory universal throughout the Church, whereas Protestant persecution of heresy tended to be spasmodic and dependent mainly on local conditions.
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/h ... h0008.html

The Inquisition(s) were extremely regrettable, and the Church has apologized for the participation of some of its members. The fact that members of the Church did participate does not, however, change the nature of the Church herself. That and the other things you mentioned deserve a seperate thread.
 
yet it was that same establishment which waded through the numerous epistles and gospels and revelations to choose that which comprises your "scriptura"

The Old Testament was on scrolls written down by scribes under the guidance and direction of God as the Books of Moses, the Prophets and the Writings were penned by Jewish hands and kept by God's people. Nero and Constantine ran the true Christians underground for hundreds of years due to the persecutions that were going on during their reign and copies were being made by them and no doubt, hidden for fear of Rome destroying them. I don't think God assigned the RCC(who wasn't even in existence at that time) to put together his holy word in the form of the bible as we know it today. All of the New Testament was written prior to the fall of Jerusalem...around 70 AD and most of it written between 50-65 AD, long before Constantine had Eusebius make up his 50 distorted and corrupt bibles from which Jerome made the Latin Vulgate for the RCC.

If indeed they waded through many epistles, gospels and revelations, it was because they intended to add to the already established word of God. Of course the Shepard of Hermas, for instance, wasn't included in the bible because it wasn't inspired of God no more than other books of the Apocrypha were...they weren't considered canonical by the Jews nor were they ever quoted, contrary to what some believe. There weren't "revelations" to wade through as there was but one Revelation and that was the Revelation of Jesus Christ penned by John while exiled on Patmos.

There's a lot of history on this and I'm sure everyone knows, unless God is a liar, that we have in the King James bible, all God intended for us to have as his infalliable word. I know I'll no doubt get a lot of flak about this, but; suffice it to say, since this topic has been discussed beyond measure no doubt, there were only two avenues of bibles. One from Antioch, Syria and the other from Alexandria, Egypt. The Masoretic text came from Antioch and it is in this stream that the only true bible emerged. Gnostics like Origen were on the other end of the spectrum and corrupted God's word beyond measure.

BTW-I don't do the sign of the cross no more than I bow to a venerated plaster of Paris statue of any sort, nor do I play with beads. All this is of a pagan background going back to Babylon and on to Egypt and Rome.



60 million is a ridiculous number considering the population of the countries involved in the Inquisition(s)

I don't think that's an unrealistic number at all since were talking about a period of over 600 years. History pretty well proved this long ago and even if that number were off...say by 30 million-what a waste of humanity because they wouldn't bow the knee to Romish doctrine. That's what the vast majority of it was all about. The pope considered himself God and anyone who didn't adhere to all their docrines of transubstantiation and refused to adore the "host" as they did, they were burned prior to being tortured relentlessly. Rome can try to erase all this from the minds of the people, but it did happen and no one can deny it or sugar coat it so it sounds a little better. The St. Bartholomew massacre was enough in it's on where over 10,000 died in one day!

http://jesus-is-lord.com/inquis1.htm

Facts are facts. Rome has persecuted Christians since the time of Nero through the atrocities in Croatia during the 1940's. There's too much documented evidence to prove the contrary. While I don't think the RCC people today should be to blame for all that, as they certainly had nothing to do with it, still; they should be cognizant of the fact that it did occur and the historical figures stand correct regardless of the apologetics attempt to sugar coat facts.

That and the other things you mentioned deserve a seperate thread.

I think this all lined up with the subject at hand, which was the victims of the Inquisition. One was initiated by the Dominicans and the other continued with Pius XII

Oh-thanks for the welcome, ThinkerMan!! I may not be after this post. :wink:
 
This, if true, doesn't hold a candle to the more than sixty million tortured, maimed and killed by Catholic Rome during the darkest days known to man when the RCC was in her monsterous and sadistic glory.

60 Million? Reasonable Protestant historians will put deaths due to inquisitions at 4-5000. The book Salvatoin at Stake by Brad Gregory, a Protestant, acknowledges the atrocities on both sides. The German Government alone at the words of Martin Luther killed 100,000 peasants because of their disruptoin caused by his very own reformation. Further if you want to get in to mudslinging we can definitely talk about slavery in the United States. The South was not Catholic by any strech of the imagination. Baptists I believe were the primary owners of slaves along with some methodists. Granted there were Catholics involved in this as well. Though they recieved an order of Excommunicatoin from Rome if you look at the papal decrees on the matter.



1. Prayers for the dead 300 A.D.

In the Catacombs (christian catacombs) it is inscribed on the walls, "Peter and Paul pray for us". That's a bit before 300 AD. Maybe you can justify your numbers.

2. Sign of the Cross 310 A.D.

a doctrine?

3. Wax votive candles 320 A.D.

Candles is a doctrine?

4. Veneration of saints and angels 375 A.D.

Ever read the story of polycarp. How his bones were collected and revered. Augustine speaks of the Shrine of St. Stephen, you know of Acts 8 fame. Now his bones were in this shrine and the shrine was built long before augustine so your 375 number doesn't make alot of sense. Can you justify your number.

5. Mary declared "Mother of God" 431 A.D.

Luke 1 how about. "Mother of my Lord". Lord is Adonia, which in Hebrew is YHVH which is God.

6. Priests begin to wear vestments 500 A.D.

Proof? By the way vestments is not a doctrine. And if you have a problem with it vestments are used in the heavenly worship. The Synod of Lapdecia mentions the storage of vestments in 341. By no means does it indicate that it is something new. That was just from a brief search of my early church fathers. I am not going to give you silliness alot of time.

7. Worship in Latin 600 A.D.

The language of worship is a doctrine? There was good reason for Latin. People spoke it and it was the language that was read and written in. By the way, once again I ask you to support your information. It seems unlikely to me that Paul went to Rome and conducted worship in Hebrew.

8. Temporal power of Papacy granted by Phocas 610 A.D.

Well first of all, proof. Second of all so what.

9. Feast days in honour of Mary 650 A.D.

Feasts in honor of mary go back before 650 AD sorry to say. But a feast is not a doctrine.

10. Kissing of the Pope's feet 709 A.D.

Doctrine? Hey did you know that bowing down before Queen's started with Solomon? Of course bowing down before kings started with Jacob. God prophesied it through Issac.

11. Temporal power of Papacy confirmed 750 A.D.

Doctrine? Support? Relevancy?

12. Adoration of Mary, saints, images and relics
legalised by 2nd Council of Nicea 788 A.D.

Veneration of these things started long before Nicea. We do not Adore them and never have as a Church doctrine. Nicea made sure this was not abused.

13. Holy water 850 A.D.

Numbers 5
17: and the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. I think your date is a bit off.

14. Veneration of St. Joseph 890 A.D.

I thought you said all of this started much earlier. You don't even know a doctrine from a whole in the ground. Veneration of St. Joe is not a doctrine but it is based on doctrine.

15. Baptism of bells 965 A.D.

Baptism of bells? Do you even know what this means? Do you suppose we think bells recieve the Holy Spirit?

16. Canonization of dead saints 995 A.D.

Well their not dead. "God is not the God of the dead but of the living".

17. Fasting on Fridays and Lent 998 A.D.

Practice. Doctrine is fasting. Surely you have no problem with that. Practice can change in the Church.

18. Rosary beads 1090 A.D.

Rosary beads are doctrne? Do you know how silly you look to a CAtholic in all of this.

19. Pope Boniface VII decrees celibacy of priests 1097 A.D.

Celibacy was practiced long before this. You might want to check ou Matt 19 where Jesus says that some would remain celibate for the kingdom. Priestly celibacy is a practice not a dotrine.

20. Inquisition of heretics 1184 A.D.

Not doctrine. Sorry.

21. Sale of Indulgences 1190 A.D.

Sale of indulgences is a practice. We still have indulgences today but they don't involve money. Indulgences is the doctrine. Can you show where it was said that indulgences had to be sold according to scripture and tradition.

22. Transubstantiation of the wafer 1215 A.D.

Matt 26 - this is my body I would say is where it started. But you can check out Ignatius of Antoch as well if you like.

23. Confession to a priest 1215 A.D.

Don't have time to look up the refs but your date is very much off. Though John 20:21 will suffice.

24. Adoration of the host (Wafer God) 1220 A.D.
25. Bible forbidden and placed on index of forbidden books --
by Council of Valencia 1229 A.D.

There was no list of Forbidden books at this time first of all. It wasn't started until 300 years later. Fact. Second of all there were only certain versions of the Bible printed by heretics put on. This one is really silly if you even a little historical study.

26. Red hats for Cardinals 1245 A.D.

Doctrine? :lol:

27. Feast of Corpus Christi 1264 A.D.

Doctrine? :lol:

28. The Miraculous scapular 1287 A.D.

:biggrinoctrine? :lol:

29. Roman church as the only true church 1303 A.D.

St. Ignatius and others speak of the purity of the Church of Rome so I think he's got ya beat.

30. Cup forbidden to laity at Communion 1415 A.D.

Doctrine?

31. Purgatory decreed by Council of Florence 1439 A.D.

The word was instituted but the practices surrounding it were long before this.

32. Doctrine of the seven sacraments 1439 A.D.

The seven we hold were split out from what was called sacraments before but were really sacramentals. The doctrine isn't the number but the theology behind a sacrament. So once again you have not proven a change in doctrine.

33. Tradition of equal authority to the Bible 1545 A.D.

You might want to Check out Irenaus who said "if we had not the Bible we would still have the Church". I can look it up for you. This was about 1150. But we can also go to 2 Thess 2:15 which indicates that we are to obey the oral as well as written traditoins.

34. Justification by works and not faith alone 1545 A.D.

You distort. I don't have time to go in to this in detail. We believe in Justification by grace alone through faith. This faith is acted out in works. Noon is justified by works alone. By the way I can show very many early writings that show that works have a role in salvatoin. YOu might want to check out Romans 2:4-8 and Matt 25 as well.

All i have time for right now. But you only show your ignorance with this post of yours. I can writed alot more on each of these if you want to explore them and justify your numbers. My guess is you just did a cut and paste from a website and are incapable of a discussion of them yourself. You certainly didn't do any research.

Blessings
 
Amity said:
Cure of Ars,

Two wrongs don't make a right.

,

I don't see where he said that it was right?

"I agree that the inquisition was sinful"
 
My, my Thessalonian...you sure got wadded up over this! You're right about the cut and paste. I do it just like everyone else does. I could care less about what was done by Rome in 927 or 1152. That was all historical data compiled by someone before me I'm sure. No one ever said all those listed were doctrines as you so graciously point out and misconstrue. If you'll look a little closer, also mentioned was papal bulls (a bunch of bull at that!) while others may be traditions of Rome. It just doesn't matter. The fact is, these doctrines, traditions, bulls, or whatever you choose to call them are all practiced, honored, etc by the RCC. Many of those listed are indeed doctrines...How about salvation only through the Catholic Church, Good Works, Vicar of Christ Infallible of the pope, Sin of Presumption, Infant Baptism, Transubstantiation, Eucharist (preserves from sin, helps the dead, etc), the various doctrines of Mary-saved from birth, perpetual virgin, source of holiness, intecessor, Queen of All, etc. Moreover, the mass, purgatory, praying to saints, Confirmation Indulgences Penance Celibacy and on and on are indeed doctrines of the Catholic church and if you don't know that, you are the one that needs to bone up on your church's history. Much of this is in the Catechism. I probably know as much or more about it than you do. I have done research and study on all this as I feel as a Christian I'd best know my enemies, and the Catholic Church is an enemy of God. There's not a single doctrine, tradition or belief that doesn't contradict the scriptures. But, then again, that was always satan's ploy to counterfeit everything God stood for.

In short, I'm not the one that came up with those 40 different doctrines, bulls or traditions, or whatever you want to call them as you seem to think since you attacked each one of them. I work 10-hour days and don't have the endurance nor the desire to debate Catholic doctrine or tradition with anyone. And, the word of God is never up for debate. You, as others, have been sent strong delusion that you would believe a lie because you have no love for the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12.



60 Million? Reasonable Protestant historians will put deaths due to inquisitions at 4-5000.

History supports the figures. Another ploy to cover up the facts with a smokescreen. This is always the case. Twice that amount, if not more, were murdered at St. Bartholomews massacre.

But you only show your ignorance with this post of yours. I can writed alot more on each of these if you want to explore them and justify your numbers. My guess is you just did a cut and paste from a website and are incapable of a discussion of them yourself. You certainly didn't do any research.

:) If you think this bothers me...if doesn't. I don't need to justify anything to anyone. I wouldn't think that someone who worked in Army Intelligence and has a degree in Electrical Engineering too ignorant. As for research, I've done my share and in fact, was totally appalled at what I found out about your illustrious church. I'm not here to dig, Thessalonian, just to share truth. I have no hatred toward any Catholic people as you may think, just their decieved religion that has deceived since its inception. After all, that's what satan is, a deceiver and enemy of the soul and that of Christ. Hope you have a good evening. :biggrin

BTW-I couldn't hate RC too much as I was married to a convert from the RCC for 18 years. I know all about the "church" through her and did study and research of my own.
 
D46 said:
My, my Thessalonian...you sure got wadded up over this!

Wadded up? You'll know when I get wadded up.

You're right about the cut and paste. I do it just like everyone else does.

Yes, you love the shotgun approach. No accountability for what you cut and paste. Your only hope is that some of it will stick. None of it does of course.

I could care less about what was done by Rome in 927 or 1152. That was all historical data compiled by someone before me I'm sure. No one ever said all those listed were doctrines as you so graciously point out and misconstrue.

Wasn't it you who said.

" perceive much has changed about her over the annals of time with each pope adding to the doctrines and initiating his own papal bulls to leave his own mark in history."

Well I supose you could have simply meant to decieve by saying this. Or perhap you are now just trying to save face. More likely the latter in my book.

There's not a single doctrine, tradition or belief that doesn't contradict the scriptures. But, then again, that was always satan's ploy to counterfeit everything God stood for.

Everything the Catholic Church teaches contradicts scripture? Or just the fourty you have listed?

In short, I'm not the one that came up with those 40 different doctrines, bulls or traditions, or whatever you want to call them as you seem to think since you attacked each one of them.

Attacked. You are very funny. When we refute your claims we are said to be attacking. When you slander, lie, and distort it is okay.

I work 10-hour days and don't have the endurance nor the desire to debate Catholic doctrine or tradition with anyone. And, the word of God is never up for debate. You, as others, have been sent strong delusion that you would believe a lie because you have no love for the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12.

I only know of one who is dillusional around here. Of course you slander me in the process. Seems personal attacks is your response.




60 Million? Reasonable Protestant historians will put deaths due to inquisitions at 4-5000.

History supports the figures. Another ploy to cover up the facts with a smokescreen. This is always the case. Twice that amount, if not more, were murdered at St. Bartholomews massacre.[/quote]

Twice the 60 Million? 120 million? Your kidding right?




:) If you think this bothers me...if doesn't. I don't need to justify anything to anyone. I wouldn't think that someone who worked in Army Intelligence and has a degree in Electrical Engineering too ignorant. [/quote]

Pride is your problem apparently. Ignorance is not based on how smart you are. I am 90 ingornant of cell biology and nuclear physics. That you are an electrical engineer (so am I by the way) does not make you immune to ignorance. Surely there are many things in history and science that you can admit you are ignorant of. Or has pride got your tongue?

As for research, I've done my share and in fact, was totally appalled at what I found out about your illustrious church. I'm not here to dig, Thessalonian, just to share truth. I have no hatred toward any Catholic people as you may think, just their decieved religion that has deceived since its inception. After all, that's what satan is, a deceiver and enemy of the soul and that of Christ. Hope you have a good evening. :biggrin

BTW-I couldn't hate RC too much as I was married to a convert from the RCC for 18 years. I know all about the "church" through her and did study and research of my own.

Well when you study from those who are prejudice it is not surprizing how you end up. That one about the Bible being put on the list of forbidden books was very funny.

Blessings
 
D46 said:
My, my Thessalonian...you sure got wadded up over this!

Wadded up? You'll know when I get wadded up.

You're right about the cut and paste. I do it just like everyone else does.

Yes, you love the shotgun approach. No accountability for what you cut and paste. Your only hope is that some of it will stick. None of it does of course.

I could care less about what was done by Rome in 927 or 1152. That was all historical data compiled by someone before me I'm sure. No one ever said all those listed were doctrines as you so graciously point out and misconstrue.

I've seen this stuff posted on many boards, like that same old fruitcake at Christmass time that keeps getting passed around. I wish you people could really feel embarrassement for the blunders you recycle.
Wasn't it you who said.

" perceive much has changed about her over the annals of time with each pope adding to the doctrines and initiating his own papal bulls to leave his own mark in history."

Well I supose you could have simply meant to decieve by saying this. Or perhap you are now just trying to save face. More likely the latter in my book.

There's not a single doctrine, tradition or belief that doesn't contradict the scriptures. But, then again, that was always satan's ploy to counterfeit everything God stood for.

Everything the Catholic Church teaches contradicts scripture? Or just the fourty you have listed?

In short, I'm not the one that came up with those 40 different doctrines, bulls or traditions, or whatever you want to call them as you seem to think since you attacked each one of them.

Attacked. You are very funny. When we refute your claims we are said to be attacking. When you slander, lie, and distort it is okay.

I work 10-hour days and don't have the endurance nor the desire to debate Catholic doctrine or tradition with anyone. And, the word of God is never up for debate. You, as others, have been sent strong delusion that you would believe a lie because you have no love for the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12.

Nor the ability quite apparently as all you do is cut and paste and recycle the same old worn out nonsense that is posted all over the internet.
It took me no time at all to refute such tripe.
I only know of one who is dillusional around here. Of course you slander me in the process. Seems personal attacks is your response.




60 Million? Reasonable Protestant historians will put deaths due to inquisitions at 4-5000.

History supports the figures. Another ploy to cover up the facts with a smokescreen. This is always the case. Twice that amount, if not more, were murdered at St. Bartholomews massacre.[/quote]

Twice the 60 Million? 120 million? Your kidding right? I believe there were about 90 million in all of Europe at the time of ST. B-day. Now somehow the Church killed 120 million were murded then? You can't be serious. I thought you said you weren't ignornant. I can think of some other words but the mods are getting very sensitive around here. You do me a favor posting such nonsense. Thanks.




:) If you think this bothers me...if doesn't. I don't need to justify anything to anyone. I wouldn't think that someone who worked in Army Intelligence and has a degree in Electrical Engineering too ignorant. [/quote]

Pride is your problem apparently. Ignorance is not based on how smart you are. I am 90 ingornant of cell biology and nuclear physics. That you are an electrical engineer (so am I by the way) does not make you immune to ignorance. Surely there are many things in history and science that you can admit you are ignorant of. Or has pride got your tongue?

As for research, I've done my share and in fact, was totally appalled at what I found out about your illustrious church. I'm not here to dig, Thessalonian, just to share truth. I have no hatred toward any Catholic people as you may think, just their decieved religion that has deceived since its inception. After all, that's what satan is, a deceiver and enemy of the soul and that of Christ. Hope you have a good evening. :biggrin

BTW-I couldn't hate RC too much as I was married to a convert from the RCC for 18 years. I know all about the "church" through her and did study and research of my own.

Well when you study from those who are prejudice it is not surprizing how you end up. That one about the Bible being put on the list of forbidden books was very funny.

Blessings
 
Twice that amount, if not more, were murdered at St. Bartholomews massacre.

Twice the 60 Million? 120 million? Your kidding right? I believe there were about 90 million in all of Europe at the time of ST. B-day. Now somehow the Church killed 120 million were murded then? You can't be serious. I thought you said you weren't ignornant. I can think of some other words but the mods are getting very sensitive around here. You do me a favor posting such nonsense. Thanks.

You don't read very well do you? Twice the amount killed according to you post about the "reasonable Protestant Historians due to inquisitions of 4-5000". Twice that is ten thousand if that sounds more correct to you as I attempted to show and there's documented evidence to this fact.

That one about the Bible being put on the list of forbidden books was very funny.

Glad you found some humor in this. Regardless of the date, the bible was a forbidden book by the established "Church". Historical evidence of this is no great secret.

I see no need in continued dialoge in this as you appear to be too angry to be able to discuss a topic such as this. I didn't join this forum to ridicule or demean anyone, only to approach a subject with truth and that I have done so whether you choose to believe it or not matters very little to me. You can believe what you want. I presented facts and they cannot be disputed.
 
[ You don't read very well do you? Twice the amount killed according to you post about the "reasonable Protestant Historians due to inquisitions of 4-5000". Twice that is ten thousand if that sounds more correct to you as I attempted to show and there's documented evidence to this fact.[/quote]

No, you don't post to well.


Glad you found some humor in this. Regardless of the date, the bible was a forbidden book by the established "Church". Historical evidence of this is no great secret.

Yes I know. Details, details. The Bible was put on no such list. Certain versions of the Bible were. Some who were distorting the Bible were told not to read it. But it was in general not forbidden for reading.

I see no need in continued dialoge in this as you appear to be too angry to be able to discuss a topic such as this. I didn't join this forum to ridicule or demean anyone, only to approach a subject with truth and that I have done so whether you choose to believe it or not matters very little to me. You can believe what you want. I presented facts and they cannot be disputed.

Angry? How do you read anger in my words. If I am direct with you I am angry. If I don't succumb to your BS I am angry. You ridicule and demean daily. They can't be disputed? :lol: Oh yes infallible one.

Your white flag is accepted.

Blessings
 
[ You don't read very well do you? Twice the amount killed according to you post about the "reasonable Protestant Historians due to inquisitions of 4-5000". Twice that is ten thousand if that sounds more correct to you as I attempted to show and there's documented evidence to this fact.[/quote]

No, you don't post to well.


Glad you found some humor in this. Regardless of the date, the bible was a forbidden book by the established "Church". Historical evidence of this is no great secret.

Yes I know. Details, details. The Bible was put on no such list. Certain versions of the Bible were. Some who were distorting the Bible were told not to read it. But it was in general not forbidden for reading.

I see no need in continued dialoge in this as you appear to be too angry to be able to discuss a topic such as this. I didn't join this forum to ridicule or demean anyone, only to approach a subject with truth and that I have done so whether you choose to believe it or not matters very little to me. You can believe what you want. I presented facts and they cannot be disputed.

Angry? How do you read anger in my words? If I am direct with you I am angry? I don't get angry at such tripe as the likes of you post. If I don't succumb to your BS I am angry? You ridicule and demean daily. That can't be disputed? Your "facts" can't be disputed? :lol: Oh yes infallible one.

Your white flag is accepted.

Blessings
 
Well, seeing that Peter is your rock, you are lost! For in Acts 4:12 Peter himself differs with you!

_________________
"Peter you are my rock, and on this Rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail. Matt 16:18



OH, and the number of Christian martyr's that were killed by Rome? According to Fox Book of Martyr's, it was upward of 150 000 000, & it states that, that might be a low number.

---John
 
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