The second death and the soul of man

[freewill]

I see various evangelical websites explaining what we should believe regarding “the second death”, for example

The second death is mentioned on multiple occasions in the book of Revelation and is synonymous with the lake of fire. It is a “death” in that it is a separation from God, the Giver of life. It is called the “second” one because it follows physical death

The second death is an ultimate and eternal separation from God. The expression is found four times in the book of Revelation ( 2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8). J.H. Thayer defined the “second death” as “the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell” (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark, 1958, p. 283).This condition is characterized as the second death because it follows physical death; it is designated as death because it is the terminal separation from the Lord(Mt. 7:23; 25:41; 2 Thes. 1:9).

I would just like to say here that I agree, “the second death” will mean an endless separation from God for all who are condemned. However, because I see this separation from God also includes those least offensive of the condemned who will ultimately suffer an endless separation and departure from creation and life, I have to say there isn’t much else I can agree with on those web pages insofar as death and punishment are concerned. This is because of the reasons I have already given and because of the reasons given below…

There can only be one possible “first death” from which all other deaths came: The first death was a spiritual death, the death of God’s love living and ruling in the once perfect angel now called Satan. The first death came when a growing pride gave birth to a spirit of rebellion and contempt for God’s love, and with this birth came not just the evil in Satan but a growing corrupting power over so many others in creation.

After the great tribulation then when this contagious and deadly spirit of evil has been allowed by God to run a course of lies, corruption, terror and misery and to reach it’s climax on earth, and after the final judgement when every condemned soul has been seen to be justly cast into the lake of fire, then all creation will forever know where the subtle way of pride –a high or inordinate opinion of one’s own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority can lead. This lesson for all creation then will forever serve as the perfect safeguard for creation, creation therefore will never be threatened again: No free and perfect mind of reason like the fallen angels once had, will ever again admire the wild and exiting spirit of rebellion and dare to venture into Satan’s reckless state of valuing the self above God and truth.

Now the point I am coming to here is this: “the second death” the lake of fire, will be seen and forever known by everyone as simply being the endless death of evil in creation. As the first death gave birth to the spirit of evil which in turn began to corrupt so many in creation, so the second death will be seen as the death of that spirit in creation along with all it’s corrupting power forever.When all evil has been justly cast out of creation into the lake of fire and is seen by all creation to be forever defeated then all creation will know again the pure joy it once experienced before being scarred and threatened by the first death.

I can only therefore conclude that when a man dies in this life his body, soul and consciousness will at some time come alive again, but only when the wisdom and justice of God so wills and only for as long as He so wills; and whilst I can see good reasons to believe there is a punishment of endless torment awaiting the vilest of evil souls, I can also see good reasons to believe there is a punishment of eventual annihilation for those least offensive souls who were born to be condemned never rightly knowing God or having a true understanding of the good they ignored and offended. Whatever physical or mental suffering those least offensive might receive before their final termination will to some degree depend upon whatever suffering or terror they maliciously willed or inflicted on others without good reason and without remorse. “He will render to each one according to his works” Romans 2:6, justice will be done and will be seen to be done. Whilst all who were given knowledge and understanding of the truth and despise and hate the good so clearly revealed through Jesus Christ, and seek only to keep fulfilling their depraved desires to seduce and corrupt, torture and destroy whoever or whatever they know is good shall forever be seen to have been justly given the greater condemnation, and justice will be seen to be done…



The truth is all we have to hold creation together and to keep us sane, all then who know the truth well and now hate and reject the truth and know also the terrible corruption and suffering they continually crave to cause shall indeed reap what they sow: A continuing demonic hatred for the truth and for God and creation, together with an endless need to twist and bury the truth will only bring an endless conflict with God, with the self and with others. Such lost souls shall be given what they need – a complete separation from God, truth and sanity, and their endless insane conflict in their eternal fire of destruction will only bring them endless torment.

 

[freewill]

Another thing I must add is that to look forward to having a greater joy in heaven through watching the horrifying torments of lost souls in hell, like Jonathan Edwards encouraged his church to do when he preached…

“the sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. It will not only make them more sensible of the greatness and freeness of the grace of God in their happiness, but it will really make their happiness the greater, as it will make them more sensible of their own happiness. It will give them a more lively relish of it: it will make them prize it more. When they see others, who were of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, O it will make them sensible how happy they are. A sense of the opposite misery, in all cases, greatly increases the relish of any joy or pleasure.” From “The Eternity of Hell’s Torments”.

…would be disgusting and perverse in the extreme.

The only good thing about seeing evil souls in torment would be seeing and knowing the wisdom and justice of God has forever destroyed the corrupting power that evil once had over creation and that creation therefore will never be threatened again. If therefore any man who seriously believes all condemned souls are going to live forever in torment and then looks forward to having an exalted happiness in heaven through watching them, even the least offensive of them writhing in endless agony (which is what Jonathan Edwards was teaching his church to do) then he should seriously start questioning his own salvation. Looking forward to an exalted happiness in this way would be offensive to everything decent and good.

Jonathan Edwards again, “After you shall have worn out the age of the sun, moon, and stars, in your dolorous groans and lamentations, without rest day and night, or one minute’s ease, yet you shall have no hope of ever being delivered. After you shall have worn a thousand more such ages, you shall have no hope, but shall know that you are not one whit nearer to the end of your torments. But that still there are the same groans, the same shrieks, the same doleful cries, incessantly to be made by you, and that the smoke of your torment shall still ascend up forever and ever.” “The Eternity of Hell’s Torments”

…and if you still believe in the immortality of every man’s soul like countless Christians down the ages were led to believe, then you must still believe that even the least knowledgeable and least offensive of condemned souls, even the most backward or least intelligent of them will be kept alive forever writhing in endless despair and misery in the fire of terror and torment also. But this is something I cannot believe because there isn’t a single good reason to be seen why I should.

To cause or allow any suffering beyond what is necessary for the eternal safety or well-being of creation would be as offensive to my God as it would be alien to reason and love.


Thank you for your time and may God bless us all

 

[Mike]

Closed for moderator review.

 

[Mike]

I'm opening this thread up again with the caution to take care with your words.

 

[Jim Parker]

I would just like to say here that I agree, “the second death” will mean an endless separation from God for all who are condemned.

The second death is not precisely described. I think you have the best understanding of which we can be confident.

There can only be one possible “first death” from which all other deaths came: The first death was a spiritual death, the death of God’s love living and ruling in the once perfect angel now called Satan.

Disagree.

Mankind has never been too concerned about "spiritual death" primarily because, that concept has no universal meaning but everybody experiences physical death. Religion has been concerned with making death into a transition from this life to some unknown eternal future.

Christianity proclaims that Christ has conquered death.
1Co 15:54-57 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Christianity declares death to be our enemy (1Co 15:26) and that in Christ mankind has eternal life. ( For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 6:23 RSV)

Jesus did not rise from the grave as a spirit. He rose with a real body. (Luk 24:39)

Therefore, the first death is physical death. All of mankind dies because all of mankind sins and the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23) and Jesus has conquered that physical death by His resurrection (1Co 15:54) and all of mankind will be raised again immortal and imperishable. (1 Cor 15:52ff)

I can only therefore conclude that when a man dies in this life his body, soul and consciousness will at some time come alive again,

That's what the ancient Greek philosophers thought but it's not what scripture says.
Jesus rose with his body and we will also rise win the same manner.
If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you. (Ro 8:11 RSV)

God the Logos became flesh (John 1:1, 14) because we are flesh.
He died physical death as a physical man and rose again as a physical man. (...Christ died and lived again, Rom 14:9a RSV)
He did so to destroy death's power over mankind so that mankind would have eternal life.

That is the core of Christian teaching. Christ became a physical man to die as a physical man and to raise from the dead as a physical man thus destroying the enemy of mankind; physical death.

iakov the fool


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that may result from said reading. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Butch5]

I see various evangelical websites explaining what we should believe regarding “the second death”, for example

The second death is mentioned on multiple occasions in the book of Revelation and is synonymous with the lake of fire. It is a “death” in that it is a separation from God, the Giver of life. It is called the “second” one because it follows physical death

The second death is an ultimate and eternal separation from God. The expression is found four times in the book of Revelation ( 2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8). J.H. Thayer defined the “second death” as “the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell” (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark, 1958, p. 283).This condition is characterized as the second death because it follows physical death; it is designated as death because it is the terminal separation from the Lord(Mt. 7:23; 25:41; 2 Thes. 1:9).

I would just like to say here that I agree, “the second death” will mean an endless separation from God for all who are condemned. However, because I see this separation from God also includes those least offensive of the condemned who will ultimately suffer an endless separation and departure from creation and life, I have to say there isn’t much else I can agree with on those web pages insofar as death and punishment are concerned. This is because of the reasons I have already given and because of the reasons given below…

There can only be one possible “first death” from which all other deaths came: The first death was a spiritual death, the death of God’s love living and ruling in the once perfect angel now called Satan. The first death came when a growing pride gave birth to a spirit of rebellion and contempt for God’s love, and with this birth came not just the evil in Satan but a growing corrupting power over so many others in creation.

After the great tribulation then when this contagious and deadly spirit of evil has been allowed by God to run a course of lies, corruption, terror and misery and to reach it’s climax on earth, and after the final judgement when every condemned soul has been seen to be justly cast into the lake of fire, then all creation will forever know where the subtle way of pride –a high or inordinate opinion of one’s own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority can lead. This lesson for all creation then will forever serve as the perfect safeguard for creation, creation therefore will never be threatened again: No free and perfect mind of reason like the fallen angels once had, will ever again admire the wild and exiting spirit of rebellion and dare to venture into Satan’s reckless state of valuing the self above God and truth.

Now the point I am coming to here is this: “the second death” the lake of fire, will be seen and forever known by everyone as simply being the endless death of evil in creation. As the first death gave birth to the spirit of evil which in turn began to corrupt so many in creation, so the second death will be seen as the death of that spirit in creation along with all it’s corrupting power forever.When all evil has been justly cast out of creation into the lake of fire and is seen by all creation to be forever defeated then all creation will know again the pure joy it once experienced before being scarred and threatened by the first death.

I can only therefore conclude that when a man dies in this life his body, soul and consciousness will at some time come alive again, but only when the wisdom and justice of God so wills and only for as long as He so wills; and whilst I can see good reasons to believe there is a punishment of endless torment awaiting the vilest of evil souls, I can also see good reasons to believe there is a punishment of eventual annihilation for those least offensive souls who were born to be condemned never rightly knowing God or having a true understanding of the good they ignored and offended. Whatever physical or mental suffering those least offensive might receive before their final termination will to some degree depend upon whatever suffering or terror they maliciously willed or inflicted on others without good reason and without remorse. “He will render to each one according to his works” Romans 2:6, justice will be done and will be seen to be done. Whilst all who were given knowledge and understanding of the truth and despise and hate the good so clearly revealed through Jesus Christ, and seek only to keep fulfilling their depraved desires to seduce and corrupt, torture and destroy whoever or whatever they know is good shall forever be seen to have been justly given the greater condemnation, and justice will be seen to be done…



The truth is all we have to hold creation together and to keep us sane, all then who know the truth well and now hate and reject the truth and know also the terrible corruption and suffering they continually crave to cause shall indeed reap what they sow: A continuing demonic hatred for the truth and for God and creation, together with an endless need to twist and bury the truth will only bring an endless conflict with God, with the self and with others. Such lost souls shall be given what they need – a complete separation from God, truth and sanity, and their endless insane conflict in their eternal fire of destruction will only bring them endless torment.

The problem I see here is that there is nothing in the Scriptures that speaks of a spiritual death. However, Paul did say that death entered the word through Adam. The second death, by definition has to be like the first, or it's not the second. If I have a hammer and I wan't a second hammer, a screw driver does not fit the bill. In order for it to be a second it has be a hammer, like the first.

There is a claim that the second death is separation from God. That is not what the second death is. That is a consequence of the second death. The second death is just like the first. All of the dead will be raised. The believers will not die anymore, however, the wicked will die again, physically, just like they did the first time. That is the second death.

 

[Jim Parker]

The second death, by definition has to be like the first, or it's not the second. If I have a hammer and I want a second hammer, a screw driver does not fit the bill. In order for it to be a second it has be a hammer, like the first.

That is logical thinking and quite refreshing. Thanks.

But, (there's that veebleblitzen word!) consider the following.

It seems to me that mankind will be raised physically as Christ was raised physically (Luk 24:39) never to die again. (Rom 6:9) So death, as far as mankind is concerned, is the end of this mortal existence.

After the resurrection, mortality will no longer be an issue for mankind because we will be raised immortal and incorruptible. (1 Cor 15:52-54) So death, as the termination of physical existence, is no longer a possibility. In fact, we are told that death is no longer an issue for mankind because Christ has gained the victory over death.

1Co 15:54-57 (RSV) When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore death must mean something different after the resurrection than before the resurrection because, since immortal resurrected man can no longer die a physical death, the word "death" can no longer mean the end of our physical lives and the decay of our physical bodies. It must refer to something else.

It is only in the Revelation that we find the comments about the 2nd death and among those references, only two give us an inkling of understanding as to what it is.

Rev 20:12-15 (RSV) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:5 (RSV) And he who sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Also he said, "Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true." And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment. He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Scripture tells us that there are two options after the resurrection/ They are: eternal life (which seems to be an everlasting existence united to God in Christ) and eternal condemnation. (which seems to be an everlasting existence separated from God.) (Mat 25:46)

So is death a different thing after the resurrection than it is before?

According to you logic, which I believe is solid, it cannot be.

Then perhaps we should reconsider what we think death is when we refer to it as the end of this pre-resurrection, physical life.

What does scripture say?
Eph 1:15 - 2:7 (RSV)
Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Core: (1) we were dead in our sins (2) we were made alive together with Christ.

Scripture also tells us that Jesus is life (Jhn 1:4; 11:25; 14:6).

So, if I define life as "being united to the One Who IS life" and death as "being separated from the One Who is life," then I can say that, in this current, physical life, if I am not united to God in Christ then I am already dead. I'm just waiting for this physical body to break down and quit working.

Then, when the dead sinner who rejected Christ is resurrected, that existence in death (separation from God and Christ) just continues as it had before his body quit working. He just gets an address change from "planet Earth" to "the Lake of fire." Death doesn't change.

But the experience of death does change. As life in Christ becomes fully and abundantly experienced, so does death, the existence separated from Christ, which we call the "2nd death," become fully and abundantly experienced.

my two kopecks


iakov the fool


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that may result from said reading. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it.Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Butch5]

That is logical thinking and quite refreshing. Thanks.

But, (there's that veebleblitzen word!) consider the following.

It seems to me that mankind will be raised physically as Christ was raised physically (Luk 24:39) never to die again. (Rom 6:9) So death, as far as mankind is concerned, is the end of this mortal existence.

After the resurrection, mortality will no longer be an issue for mankind because we will be raised immortal and incorruptible. (1 Cor 15:52-54) So death, as the termination of physical existence, is no longer a possibility. In fact, we are told that death is no longer an issue for mankind because Christ has gained the victory over death.

1Co 15:54-57 (RSV) When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore death must mean something different after the resurrection than before the resurrection because, since immortal resurrected man can no longer die a physical death, the word "death" can no longer mean the end of our physical lives and the decay of our physical bodies. It must refer to something else.

It is only in the Revelation that we find the comments about the 2nd death and among those references, only two give us an inkling of understanding as to what it is.

Rev 20:12-15 (RSV) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:5 (RSV) And he who sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Also he said, "Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true." And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment. He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Scripture tells us that there are two options after the resurrection/ They are: eternal life (which seems to be an everlasting existence united to God in Christ) and eternal condemnation. (which seems to be an everlasting existence separated from God.) (Mat 25:46)

So is death a different thing after the resurrection than it is before?

According to you logic, which I believe is solid, it cannot be.

Then perhaps we should reconsider what we think death is when we refer to it as the end of this pre-resurrection, physical life.

What does scripture say?
Eph 1:15 - 2:7 (RSV)
Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Core: (1) we were dead in our sins (2) we were made alive together with Christ.

Scripture also tells us that Jesus is life (Jhn 1:4; 11:25; 14:6).

So, if I define life as "being united to the One Who IS life" and death as "being separated from the One Who is life," then I can say that, in this current, physical life, if I am not united to God in Christ then I am already dead. I'm just waiting for this physical body to break down and quit working.

Then, when the dead sinner who rejected Christ is resurrected, that existence in death (separation from God and Christ) just continues as it had before his body quit working. He just gets an address change from "planet Earth" to "the Lake of fire." Death doesn't change.

But the experience of death does change. As life in Christ becomes fully and abundantly experienced, so does death, the existence separated from Christ, which we call the "2nd death," become fully and abundantly experienced.

my two kopecks


iakov the fool


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that may result from said reading. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it.Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

Thanks Jim,

I understand what you're saying. I just don't think that the definition of death is separation from God. I believe that it's consequence of it. Paul said that death entered through Adam. I think that is clearly physical death. God put an angel at the entrance to the garden so that they would not have access to the tree of life and live forever. The tells me that we are talking about physical death.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I see various evangelical websites explaining what we should believe regarding “the second death”, for example

The second death is mentioned on multiple occasions in the book of Revelation and is synonymous with the lake of fire. It is a “death” in that it is a separation from God, the Giver of life. It is called the “second” one because it follows physical death

The second death is an ultimate and eternal separation from God. The expression is found four times in the book of Revelation ( 2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8). J.H. Thayer defined the “second death” as “the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell” (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark, 1958, p. 283).This condition is characterized as the second death because it follows physical death; it is designated as death because it is the terminal separation from the Lord(Mt. 7:23; 25:41; 2 Thes. 1:9).

I would just like to say here that I agree, “the second death” will mean an endless separation from God for all who are condemned. However, because I see this separation from God also includes those least offensive of the condemned who will ultimately suffer an endless separation and departure from creation and life, I have to say there isn’t much else I can agree with on those web pages insofar as death and punishment are concerned. This is because of the reasons I have already given and because of the reasons given below…

There can only be one possible “first death” from which all other deaths came: The first death was a spiritual death, the death of God’s love living and ruling in the once perfect angel now called Satan. The first death came when a growing pride gave birth to a spirit of rebellion and contempt for God’s love, and with this birth came not just the evil in Satan but a growing corrupting power over so many others in creation.

After the great tribulation then when this contagious and deadly spirit of evil has been allowed by God to run a course of lies, corruption, terror and misery and to reach it’s climax on earth, and after the final judgement when every condemned soul has been seen to be justly cast into the lake of fire, then all creation will forever know where the subtle way of pride –a high or inordinate opinion of one’s own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority can lead. This lesson for all creation then will forever serve as the perfect safeguard for creation, creation therefore will never be threatened again: No free and perfect mind of reason like the fallen angels once had, will ever again admire the wild and exiting spirit of rebellion and dare to venture into Satan’s reckless state of valuing the self above God and truth.

Now the point I am coming to here is this: “the second death” the lake of fire, will be seen and forever known by everyone as simply being the endless death of evil in creation. As the first death gave birth to the spirit of evil which in turn began to corrupt so many in creation, so the second death will be seen as the death of that spirit in creation along with all it’s corrupting power forever.When all evil has been justly cast out of creation into the lake of fire and is seen by all creation to be forever defeated then all creation will know again the pure joy it once experienced before being scarred and threatened by the first death.

I can only therefore conclude that when a man dies in this life his body, soul and consciousness will at some time come alive again, but only when the wisdom and justice of God so wills and only for as long as He so wills; and whilst I can see good reasons to believe there is a punishment of endless torment awaiting the vilest of evil souls, I can also see good reasons to believe there is a punishment of eventual annihilation for those least offensive souls who were born to be condemned never rightly knowing God or having a true understanding of the good they ignored and offended. Whatever physical or mental suffering those least offensive might receive before their final termination will to some degree depend upon whatever suffering or terror they maliciously willed or inflicted on others without good reason and without remorse. “He will render to each one according to his works” Romans 2:6, justice will be done and will be seen to be done. Whilst all who were given knowledge and understanding of the truth and despise and hate the good so clearly revealed through Jesus Christ, and seek only to keep fulfilling their depraved desires to seduce and corrupt, torture and destroy whoever or whatever they know is good shall forever be seen to have been justly given the greater condemnation, and justice will be seen to be done…



The truth is all we have to hold creation together and to keep us sane, all then who know the truth well and now hate and reject the truth and know also the terrible corruption and suffering they continually crave to cause shall indeed reap what they sow: A continuing demonic hatred for the truth and for God and creation, together with an endless need to twist and bury the truth will only bring an endless conflict with God, with the self and with others. Such lost souls shall be given what they need – a complete separation from God, truth and sanity, and their endless insane conflict in their eternal fire of destruction will only bring them endless torment.

Two points on why this will not preach. You have ditched the Word of God and it looks like, in favor of man made wisdom. Every one of us is created in the Image of God but God is a spirit, what some all a ghost. We pick up our physical cups and sip our Coffee, that is not like God! Where is the Image of God then? Scripture says God breathed life into them. And there goes that problem once more, God is a Spirit Being!

Do Ghosts breath? I do not know but I do know, because God has told me, that there was nothing but Him and the other spirits He created... no air until God created it. John 1:1-5)

I cannot prove it but I propose that every Aborted Baby already has the Image of God from the time the sperm attaches to the egg, even before both become. And so it is that our spirits are also eternal. And being eternal, there an be no extinction.

 

[freewill]

The problem I see here is that there is nothing in the Scriptures that speaks of a spiritual death.

I see no such problem, for there was a very real spiritual death the very day, indeed the very moment the free and perfect yet curious and naive Adam, listened to Satan and ignored God, Genesis 2:17 “in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” Clearly Adam did not die physically on that day, but he did die spiritually through valuing his own desire to know good and evil above his Father’s warning. On that day the pure and innocent spirit of humility and truth that ruled in Adam was confounded and corrupted into a self first spirit of lies and rebellion against God. The spirit that once formed the heart of the ruling character in Adam was now dead in Adam.
The moment Adam gave in to Satan’s temptation to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then that person whom God had created perfect changed into something alien to God. Adam had become a child of the god of evil, an offence to all that is good. The Adam whom God created and had fellowship with was no longer living.

The first man Adam clearly had both a spiritual and a physical element and Genesis 3 explains that he died spiritually the day he ate the forbidden fruit. He also died physically at the age of 930 years as Genesis 5:5 tells us. Even so, there must have been an earlier spiritual death for Satan to have existed, and that death would have been the first death…

The love revealed through the finished work of Jesus Christ is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit that rules creation and will live in everyone who is born again. The first death was the death of God’s love living and ruling in the once perfect angel now called Satan. The first death came when a growing pride gave birth to a spirit of rebellion and contempt for God’s love, and with this birth came not just the evil in Satan but a growing evil in so many others in creation who were corrupted by that evil.

The second death, by definition has to be like the first, or it's not the second. If I have a hammer and I wan't a second hammer, a screw driver does not fit the bill. In order for it to be a second it has be a hammer, like the first.

But the second death will be like the first death because it will also be a spiritual death: it will be the death of the spirit of evil in creation. Just as the first death was the death of the spirit of good in a once perfect angel in creation, which gave birth to the spirit of evil that went on to corrupt and defile so many others in creation, so “the second death”, referred to as “the lake of fire”, Revelation 20:14 will be seen and forever known by everyone as simply being the death of the spirit of evil in creation.

When all evil has been justly cast out of creation into the lake of fire and is seen by all creation to be forever defeated then all creation will know again the pure joy it once experienced before being scarred and threatened by the first death.

But to cause or allow or to hope for, like some still do, a suffering beyond what is necessary for the eternal safety or well-being of creation would be as offensive to God as it would be alien to reason and love.


Our freedom now is our freedom to choose reason and love or the lake of fire.

 

[Butch5]

I see no such problem, for there was a very real spiritual death the very day, indeed the very moment the free and perfect yet curious and naive Adam, listened to Satan and ignored God, Genesis 2:17 “in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” Clearly Adam did not die physically on that day, but he did die spiritually through valuing his own desire to know good and evil above his Father’s warning. On that day the pure and innocent spirit of humility and truth that ruled in Adam was confounded and corrupted into a self first spirit of lies and rebellion against God. The spirit that once formed the heart of the ruling character in Adam was now dead in Adam.
The moment Adam gave in to Satan’s temptation to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then that person whom God had created perfect changed into something alien to God. Adam had become a child of the god of evil, an offence to all that is good. The Adam whom God created and had fellowship with was no longer living.

The first man Adam clearly had both a spiritual and a physical element and Genesis 3 explains that he died spiritually the day he ate the forbidden fruit. He also died physically at the age of 930 years as Genesis 5:5 tells us. Even so, there must have been an earlier spiritual death for Satan to have existed, and that death would have been the first death…

The love revealed through the finished work of Jesus Christ is the essence and character of the Holy Spirit that rules creation and will live in everyone who is born again. The first death was the death of God’s love living and ruling in the once perfect angel now called Satan. The first death came when a growing pride gave birth to a spirit of rebellion and contempt for God’s love, and with this birth came not just the evil in Satan but a growing evil in so many others in creation who were corrupted by that evil.

I don't know where you got that from, but it's not the Scriptures. Paul said that death entered the world through Adam, not Satan. Also there is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches a spiritual death. Even the passage you quoted from Genesis says nothing about a spiritual death. That's a man made doctrine. Peter when alluding to David said,

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Pet. 3:8 KJV)

Both the Jews and the early Christians understood this prophetic day of one thousand years to be the day in which Adam died.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5

The Lord, therefore, recapitulating in Himself this day, underwent His sufferings upon the day preceding the Sabbath, that is, the sixth day of the creation, on which day man was created; thus granting him a second creation by means of His passion, which is that [creation] out of death. And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since “a day of the Lord is as a thousand years,” he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin. Whether, therefore, with respect to disobedience, which is death; whether [we consider] that, on account of that, they were delivered over to death, and made debtors to it; whether with respect to [the fact that on] one and the same day on which they ate they also died (for it is one day of the creation); whether [we regard this point], that, with respect to this cycle of days, they died on the day in which they did also eat, that is, the day of the preparation, which is termed “the pure supper,” that is, the sixth day of the feast, which the Lord also exhibited when He suffered on that day; or whether [we reflect] that he (Adam) did not overstep the thousand years, but died within their limit, — it follows that, in regard to all these significations, God is indeed true. For they died who tasted of the tree; and the serpent is proved a liar and a murderer, as the Lord said of him: “For he is a murderer from the beginning, and the truth is not in him.”
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

Book of Jubilees

29 And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth year [930 A.M.] thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he was the first to be buried in the earth. 30 And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: 'On the day that you eat thereof you shall die.' For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

But the second death will be like the first death because it will also be a spiritual death: it will be the death of the spirit of evil in creation.

Just as the first death was the death of the spirit of good in a once perfect angel in creation, which gave birth to the spirit of evil that went on to corrupt and defile so many others in creation, so “the second death”, referred to as “the lake of fire”, Revelation 20:14 will be seen and forever known by everyone as simply being the death of the spirit of evil in creation.

When all evil has been justly cast out of creation into the lake of fire and is seen by all creation to be forever defeated then all creation will know again the pure joy it once experienced before being scarred and threatened by the first death.

But to cause or allow or to hope for, like some still do, a suffering beyond what is necessary for the eternal safety or well-being of creation would be as offensive to God as it would be alien to reason and love.


Our freedom now is our freedom to choose reason and love or the lake of fire.

I don't know where you got that.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I don't know where you got that from, but it's not the Scriptures. Paul said that death entered the world through Adam, not Satan. Also there is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches a spiritual death. Even the passage you quoted from Genesis says nothing about a spiritual death. That's a man made doctrine. Peter when alluding to David said,

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Pet. 3:8 KJV)

Both the Jews and the early Christians understood this prophetic day of one thousand years to be the day in which Adam died.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5

The Lord, therefore, recapitulating in Himself this day, underwent His sufferings upon the day preceding the Sabbath, that is, the sixth day of the creation, on which day man was created; thus granting him a second creation by means of His passion, which is that [creation] out of death. And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since “a day of the Lord is as a thousand years,” he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin. Whether, therefore, with respect to disobedience, which is death; whether [we consider] that, on account of that, they were delivered over to death, and made debtors to it; whether with respect to [the fact that on] one and the same day on which they ate they also died (for it is one day of the creation); whether [we regard this point], that, with respect to this cycle of days, they died on the day in which they did also eat, that is, the day of the preparation, which is termed “the pure supper,” that is, the sixth day of the feast, which the Lord also exhibited when He suffered on that day; or whether [we reflect] that he (Adam) did not overstep the thousand years, but died within their limit, — it follows that, in regard to all these significations, God is indeed true. For they died who tasted of the tree; and the serpent is proved a liar and a murderer, as the Lord said of him: “For he is a murderer from the beginning, and the truth is not in him.”
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

Book of Jubilees

29 And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth year [930 A.M.] thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he was the first to be buried in the earth. 30 And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: 'On the day that you eat thereof you shall die.' For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.





I don't know where you got that.

Butch, what do you think the Second Death that is mentioned foru times in the Book of Revelation? (Rev 2:11, Rev 20:6 & 14, and Rev 21:8)

 

[Butch5]

Butch, what do you think the Second Death that is mentioned foru times in the Book of Revelation? (Rev 2:11, Rev 20:6 & 14, and Rev 21:8)

I think it's death, physical death.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I think it's death, physical death.

No, the lost man dies the second death and the Saved man doesn't so that cannot be. Everybody dies the first death except they be taken our of this world by God. The second death is eternally suffered and the first death is the transition into the Eternal Realm

 

[Butch5]

No, the lost man dies the second death and the Saved man doesn't so that cannot be. Everybody dies the first death except they be taken our of this world by God. The second death is eternally suffered and the first death is the transition into the Eternal Realm

Everyone dies the first death and the wicked die the second. Both are physical.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Everyone dies the first death and the wicked die the second. Both are physical.

Impossible, men are born dead to the spirit world.

 

[Butch5]

Impossible, men are born dead to the spirit world.

Born dead to the spirit world? What does that mean? Paul said that death entered through Adam, that was physical death. The second death is called the second because it is like the first. If I have a hammer and I go to get a second hammer I don't get a screwdriver or a pair of pliers. I get another hammer like the first.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Born dead to the spirit world? What does that mean? Paul said that death entered through Adam, that was physical death. The second death is called the second because it is like the first. If I have a hammer and I go to get a second hammer I don't get a screwdriver or a pair of pliers. I get another hammer like the first.

You are not studying the scriptures and then prayerfully meditating on them, assuming your salvation is correct. The Second Death is eternal suffering annd separation from God in the Abyss/Lake of Fire. (Rev. 20:14)