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The 'spirit' in the Bible

guibox

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Joined
Nov 30, 2004
Messages
1,255
Many try to interpret the spirit as the soul and that it survives death. However, the two words ‘soul’ and ‘spirit’ cannot be used interchangeably, nor does either refer to something that is immortal. This “spirit†is not conscious or immortal, but the life spark that keeps us alive. It is the Hebrew, “ruach†, which is translated into English as ‘breath’, ‘life force’ and ‘wind’.

The Bible says that all creatures have the breath of life. The essence of life that God gave at creation is in us. Look at what happens when man dies.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it – Ecclesiastes 12:7
But man dieth, and wasteth away. Yea, man giveth up the ghost (spirit) and where is he? – Job 14:10
** Notice something VERY important here...The 'spirit going back to God' is not just for righteous but for EVERY man. Hence, even the wicked man's 'spirit' goes back to God. The Bible doesn't limit it or single out righteous people. Therefore, this spirit cannot be some 'immortal conscious soul of the righteous' that goes to heaven at death

But's let's read on...

Notice the same reference to be used for Christ dying on the cross and Stephen being stoned.

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. And having said thus, he gave up the ghost – Luke 23:46
Do you know what more modern translations interpret 'he gave up the ghost'? It says , 'And Jesus breathed His last'.

And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus receive my spirit – Acts 7:59
What is this spirit or ‘ghost’ and is it immortal? Notice the next verse in Acts 7

And he kneeled down and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this he fell asleep – vs 60
Also notice the remaining verses of Job 14 when he says ‘man gives up the ghost’.

So man lieth down and riseth not till the heavens be no more. They shall not awake nor be raised out of their sleep – Job 14:12
To Job, giving up the ghost meant that you died and as Solomon said, “the thoughts perishâ€Â. We know that Christ did not go to heaven in any form but like he promised, was raised from the grave. He told Mary, "Touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my Father." His giving up the ghost was Him breathing His last. This is taken straight from the OT and is not meant to mean something that survives death. This spirit is nothing more than the breath of life given by God at creation.

All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils – Job 27:3
Hebrew parallelism in this verse (where the same thought is expressed and reiterated another way) shows that this breath of life is the spirit God gave us. As a matter of fact, death is creation in reverse. God makes a body, breaths the spark of life into him and man becomes a living soul. Then at death, the body returns to earth, the life spark back to God who gave it and the soul perishes. Just as man was unconscious until God breathed life into him, so when that spark leaves, he becomes unconscious again.

The problem with the traditional Christian view of man’s nature is that the words ‘soul’ and ‘spirit’ are used interchangeably to talk about the same thing: that man has an essence that survives death. However, the ‘soul’ and ‘spirit’ are not the same thing, neither is either immortal. Rather, the Bible teaches that both are an essential component of man. When one ceases to exist, so does the rest. Think of it as a light bulb.

Lightbulb (body)+electric spark (spirit) = light (soul)

When I shut off the light, that spark is gone, the light dies and an empty bulb-shell remains. The spark is not existing somewhere else. At the resurrection, this breath of life is breathed in to man again but man is raised immortal (1 Corinthians 15:51-56)
 
C

CP_Mike

Guest
The Hebrews spoke of a twilight existance in Sheol where the dead are called 'Rephaim' (Shadows) where death is not extinction, but the weakest form of life. (Ps 88:10)
 
C

cj

Guest
Life is just God, and God is forever.

But this can become a very interesting discussion.


In love,
cj
 
2

2Pillars

Guest
I tend to disagree with the author. The author is combining soul and spirit as apples and oranges.

The Scripture teaches us that there are evil spirits that roam around this world, for their next victim. They are uncleaned spirits which is abomination to our Lord.

Man was given a "breath of LIFE" becoming a natural living soul. He was not given a "breath of spirit" -- as the author would like us to believe.

Those who are Born Again in the image and likeness of God are given a Holy Spirit that is of God - reimforcement of consciousness.

Unless you are Born Again spiritually in likeness of God, you have no spirit to return to God who gives it. That's why one needs to be born again spiritually from their natural state.

God is Holy and would not allow uncleaned spirits in his own domain.


God Bless
 

guibox

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Messages
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2Pillars said:
I tend to disagree with the author. The author is combining soul and spirit as apples and oranges.
Author? Me? How flattering! I thought I was just a mere 'poster'. 8-)

2Pillars said:
The Scripture teaches us that there are evil spirits that roam around this world, for their next victim. They are uncleaned spirits which is abomination to our Lord.
Do not get the 'spirits' of demons confused with the 'neshamah' or 'ruach', the life force that inhabits man. They are different.

2Pillars said:
Man was given a "breath of LIFE" becoming a natural living soul. He was not given a "breath of spirit" -- as the author would like us to believe.
But that is what 'ruach' and 'neshamah' and 'pneuma' is translated as. Take it up with the biblical language not with me.

2Pillars said:
Those who are Born Again in the image and likeness of God are given a Holy Spirit that is of God - reimforcement of consciousness.

Unless you are Born Again spiritually in likeness of God, you have no spirit to return to God who gives it. That's why one needs to be born again spiritually from their natural state.
Did you know that the 'spirit' that goes back to God who gave it is not singled out to merely Christians? Everybody's spirit goes back to God because very living 'soul' has this life giving spark in them.

This is where the traditional view of the 'soul going to heaven at death' fails. It is the 'spirit', the 'ruach' that goes back to God. It is not living and it is something that happens to EVERY person, be they good or evil.
 
2

2Pillars

Guest
Dear guidbox,

The breath of life given to Adam was NOT spirit (Gen. 2:7). It was the life giving "breath" coming from Christ, thus man become a natural living soul.

The MAKING of Adam from the dust of the ground becoming a NATURAL living soul (Gen. 2:7) was entirely different event from the CREATION of A&E in the image and likeness of God, spiritually (Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1-2).

1 CORINTHIANS 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Spirit is the “discerner†of thought or intent of the heart – to know what’s good or bad. As we all know, Adam did not have any idea what's good or evil to begin with -- until he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

There are just too many holes in your doctrines to overcome justifying your belief. Here are just few passages which talks about the separation of the soul and spirit, contrary to your doctrinal belief.

HEBREWS 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged SWORD, piercing even to the DIVIDING asunder of soul AND spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

ISAIAH 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for “the†spirit should fail before me, AND “the†souls†which I have made.

Clearly, the text is speaking of two different subjects here, the soul and the spirit. There’s just no way getting around it. Therefore, do not mix their biblical usage.

Conclusion: Unless you are born again spiritually in Christ, you don't have a holy spirit to return to God who gives it. God who is Holy would not allow uncleaned spirit in his own domain - simple as that.


God Bless
 

guibox

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Joined
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Messages
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2Pillars said:
Dear guidbox,

The breath of life given to Adam was NOT spirit (Gen. 2:7). It was the life giving "breath" coming from Christ, thus man become a natural living soul.
Sorry. Job disagrees with you. Even if you were right, the Bible doesn't say that this 'spirit' is our conscious entity that survives death and lives on outside the body.

All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils – Job 27:3
The spirit of God in us IS the breath of life breathed into us at creation. Job also makes it plain that when this spirit is taken away, man ceases to exist. Solomon also says that this spirit goes back to God. It is merely the life force that makes ALL MANKIND exist.

Again, other than mentioning specific examples of Christ and Stephen, the Bible doesn't distinguish that this 'spirit that goes back to God who gave it' is a believer's ONLY but all men. Solomon mentions the exact same thing referring to simply 'man' and not 'believers in God'.

Hence, this 'spirit' is not our 'soul' as is traditionally interpreted, nor is it some living, ethereal conscious part of man. It is merely the life spark breathed into us at creation that made us a living soul.

Death is merely creation in reverse.

To make what you are saying is true, then you'd have to believe that we existed in heaven and God merely placed our essence in a body.

How can some 'spirit' that had no form which was breathed into us by God all of a sudden become our own spirit which survives upon death.

You have no biblical support for such nonsense, Pillars and the linguistic nature of the words for 'spirit' and 'soul' are strongly against you.

2Pillars said:
There are just too many holes in your doctrines to overcome justifying your belief. Here are just few passages which talks about the separation of the soul and spirit, contrary to your doctrinal belief..
Not as many swiss cheese holes in yours to say that the 'spirit' is a living essence of man that survives death and goes to heaven to exist as a 'soulish spirit'.

The Bible doesn't support this. Instead we see that Paul's desire at death is to receive the resurrection where we will inherit eternal life realized in our resurrection bodies.

Also I am not saying that the 'soul' and the 'spirit' are the same thing. What I am saying is that one is contigent on the other and both make up man. When one ceases to exist, man no longer exists as a living being in any fashion.

2Pillars said:
Conclusion: Unless you are born again spiritually in Christ, you don't have a holy spirit to return to God who gives it. God who is Holy do not allow uncleaned spirit in his domain - simple as that.

God Bless
Conclusion: You have no biblical support whatsoever for the above statement and both Solomon and Job disagree with you.

I will refer you to CP_Mike's thorough linguistic analysis of the 'soul' and 'spirit'. You will find in this analysis no proof that something thinking, conscious, being survives our physical death as is traditionally taught.

Please read.

CP_Mike said:
Nephesh - Psyche - Soul
The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.
'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death. It is, as we shall see a highly complex image very easy to misinterpret.
Ruah - Pneuma - Spirit
This 'picture - window' into personhood highlights our unique relationship with God.'Ruah' has its roots in the 'wind' which emphasises both its powerful and yet subtle nature. 'Ruah' is used in a number of different contexts:-
• for the wind in nature.
• for the nature of God's being ['Spirit of God', 'Holy Spirit']; dynamic, overwhelming, at times completely dominating [Jg 6:34], the root of prophesying [ISam 10:5-6] and abnormal strength [Jg 14:6].
• for demonic activity [ISam 16:14].
• for the 'principle of life' [akin to 'nephesh' often used interchangeably]. It is the life force present everywhere; independent, universal, it does not die.
• for the vital energy dwelling within each individual, that force which affects temperament.
Human 'ruah' is more than just the natural breath we breathe [which is 'nesama']. There is a vital energy within each person which is the result of the special 'in-breathing' of God; the centre of thoughts, decisions, moods, and is the dimension of personhood most directly open to the influence of God. 'Ruah' particularly stresses:-
• the direction of the will, it is the energy behind willing and acting, that which urges good and evil [Isa 29:24; Ps 51:12].
• the deep emotions; passion [Jg 8:3], grief [Gen 26:35] zeal [Hag 1:14], often seen in the panting of excitement or distress which is different from normal breathing.
• the seat of individual moral qualities and attitudes [Ecc 7:8; Isa 57:15; Num 14:24]. Ezekiel sees the Messianic age as a period when individuals will be permeated by Yahweh's 'ruah' which in turn will renew their own [11; 19; 18:31; 36:26; 39:29]. This is one of the most important words in Paul's vocabulary with his emphasis on regeneration, sanctification, fellowship with God [Gal. 5:22-23 etc].
• the experience of being in touch with God and under God's influence. The human 'ruah' searches out God's ways [Ps 77:7; Isa 26;9], it can be stirred or hardened by God [Jer 51; 11; Dt 2:30].
'Ruah' presents us with human nature's in interplay with the nature of God. It is stressing a person open to and transmitting the life of God [Rm 8:16; ICor 2:10-11]. It has no physical 'animal' character, [never associated with blood], transcending mere desire or feeling.
 
2

2Pillars

Guest
Dear guidbox,

I thought so, you can NOT use the Scripture to prove your case and will rely on other's private interpretation rather than using the Bible to prove itself.

Here’s how the Bible explain the "Spirit" that is of God and those who are just an natural living soul.

1 CORINTHIANS 2: 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

v13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

v14 But the NATURAL MAN receiveth NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually DISCERNED.

Now, if I follow your assumption that the breath of life given by the Lord was already a “spirit†then all the beast of the earth and fowl of the air with nostril have a spirit to know good and evil!? READ…

GENESIS 6:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. v15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of ALL FLESH, wherein is the BREATH OF LIFE.

See, your argument is going nowhere. Perhaps, you need to sit back and try to consume what I have posted.


God bless
 

guibox

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I can pretty much guarantee that you did not read, never mind try to process CP_Mike's argument straight from the Bible on these words.

Hence, our discussion is over.
 
2

2Pillars

Guest
Dear guidbox,


I don't mind your decision to finish this discussion. Simply because, you cannot use Scripture to support your opinions. You can only use your interpretational methods which don't agree with Scripture nor History. You can only base your "proper interpretation" on your own religion's views.

Therefore, we will just agree to disagree.


God Bless


PS. I did read briefly the commentaries you provided above BUT has nothing to do DIRECTLY to the issues that I was bringing up. It is a cut-and-paste which is out of context to the continuining discussion and rebuttal that I was posting. Therefore, IRRELEVANT to the basis of my objection.
 

guibox

Member
Joined
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Messages
1,255
2Pillars said:
Dear guidbox,


I don't mind your decision to finish this discussion. Simply because, you cannot use Scripture to support your opinions. You can only use your interpretational methods which don't agree with Scripture nor History. You can only base your "proper interpretation" on your own religion's views.

Therefore, we will just agree to disagree.
Yes we shall.

However, if you read my initial post, you will see that I used nothing but the bible for the interpretation of the 'spirit'. Sorry you seem to disagree but dont' bring my methods of interpretation into question when I exegetically used the scriptures to prove it. Perhaps you should go back and read it again.

You have not disputed my initial biblical posting: that the 'spirit that returns to God who gave it' is not limited to only Christians, nor is it some conscious, thinking part of man that survives death outside the body. I believe that I proved that in context using both the OT and the NT in their correlation to each other and to the nature of the language. Something that CP_Mike's post reiterates.

Ignoring it doesn't make your views any more true or ours any less false.
 

Relic

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Joined
Feb 17, 2004
Messages
4,097
.


2Pillars , Thank you. :smt023

2Pillars please Note: I sent you a PM the other day, please do open it. :)


=====================



guibox, :o


whew! Your logic and references are all scattered and unrelated to the specifics in some areas of your postings. Your general analogy is just out of line with the Words of Jesus.


If people were to believe the way in which you take scripture and definitions out of context, they would have to ignored the Words of Jesus. And we all know to NOT do that! You have missed keeping Jesus words in mind while using comparisons to your presentation


I went through this thread last night and I do have some rebuttals for you to answer to. I made some notes last night and I will post them when I have the time. There is sooo much you are in error and out of context with.
Mind you, I don't disagree with you totally, However, there is way too much of what you presented that just totally contradicts the Words of Jesus. :-?

The evidence that Spirit is not put to an end outweighs what you have presented here. Sorry, You have proven nothing but that you have speculated upon what happens to the spirit once the body is in the grave.

I have to go through my notes in order to condense my post. Not an easy thing for me to do. So please bear with me while I work on that.

I'll be back. :biggrin


.
 

guibox

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2004
Messages
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Relic said:
The evidence that Spirit is not put to an end outweighs what you have presented here. Sorry, You have proven nothing but that you have speculated upon what happens to the spirit once the body is in the grave.
I have not argued that the spirit is 'put to an end'. The Bible makes it plain that the 'spirit goes back to God who gave it'. What I feel I have proven is that this 'spirit' is not man's cogitating, thinking consciousness that 'goes to heaven at death' as is traditionally taught as the 'soul' (and in which texts such as 2 Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:21-23 is used to 'prove'.

What the Bible proves linguistically and contextually (and of which neither you nor 2Pillars has disproven) that ALL men's spirits go back to God and that this 'spirit' is merely the life force that makes man a 'soul' a 'living being'.

I suggest you go back and read this initial post and see where I am coming from contextually.
 
C

CP_Mike

Guest
2pillars

Unless you are Born Again spiritually in likeness of God, you have no spirit to return to God who gives it. That's why one needs to be born again spiritually from their natural state.
That is not strictly true. Human Ruah is not the same as God's ruah. I see plenty of people who make 'moral' choices and they are certainly not believers. In the same way, we all see people who are seeking some kind of spiritual reality in their lives. If they had no human Ruah, how can God 'harden their hearts'?

EG DT 2:30

30 But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the LORD your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands, as he has now done.
 
2

2Pillars

Guest
CP_Mike said:
2pillars

Unless you are Born Again spiritually in likeness of God, you have no spirit to return to God who gives it. That's why one needs to be born again spiritually from their natural state.
That is not strictly true. Human Ruah is not the same as God's ruah. I see plenty of people who make 'moral' choices and they are certainly not believers. In the same way, we all see people who are seeking some kind of spiritual reality in their lives. If they had no human Ruah, how can God 'harden their hearts'?

EG DT 2:30

30 But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the LORD your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands, as he has now done.
Dear Mike,


The bone of contention here, just to give you an idea … guidbox ASSUMED that the “breath of life†given to Adam in the beginning Genesis 2:7 was actually his spirit or consciousness which equates to the knowledge of good and evil.

IF so, based on his/her assumption, then, all creatures and animals that was given the same breath of life - formed with nostrils Gen. 7:22 – also have spirit - the knowledge of good and evil. Absurd, isn’t it?

The actual usage of the definite article “THE†to describe THE BREATH OF LIFE (not neshama) should have served as a hint that his/her theory is flawed.. Had it been the case, the Scripture would have specifically described it so, as it is clearly documented on this cited text below..

look and read….

John 20:22 “And when he had said this, HE BREATH ON THEM, and saith unto them, "RECEIVED YE THE HOLY GHOST:â€Â

As everybody could see, the text is very specific describing what kind of breath that was given - to avoid this kind of guidbox’ confusion.

Now, to answer your question specifically -

Adam and Eve were innocent of the knowledge of the spirit (consciousness) good and evil until they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knoweldge. It was only then, they learned about shame and guilt of what they have done.

Our INHERITED natural spirit of consciousness of good and evil only came about after Adam’s had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

Therefore, your question of the hardening of the heart of Sihon king of Heshbon became possible because of the reason stated above.

God knows that natural man’s consciousness to good is willing, but, the flesh is weak, therefore, will necessitate his spiritual help. That’s why we are called upon, to be born again, spiritually.

Scripture also clearly documents us that unless you are born again in the Spirit of God, you CANNOT enter the kingdom of God.

Based on the above, how can someone like guidbox take a position that uncleaned spirits will return to God - who gave it ??? - is beyond my imagination.

Read my lips guidbox, God, who is Holy, do not pour uncleaned spirits to us, therefore, the same will not return to his Kingdom.


God Bless
 
S

SputnikBoy

Guest
2Pillars said:
The bone of contention here, just to give you an idea … guidbox ASSUMED that the “breath of life†given to Adam in the beginning Genesis 2:7 was actually his spirit or consciousness which equates to the knowledge of good and evil.

Guibox 'assumed' no such thing as far as I can see. You are the one who is 'assuming' here, pillars. Guibox gave no more than the biblical truth that God made Adam out of dust, breathed into his nostrils the 'breath of life' (spirit=breath=Greek 'pneuma') and Adam became a living soul. Guibox also said as simply as he could that this same event is 'reversed' at death. Man returns to dust, the 'spirit' or 'breath' or Greek 'pneuma' goes back to God who gave it. Do you have a particular issue with this?

IF so, based on his/her assumption, then, all creatures and animals that was given the same breath of life - formed with nostrils Gen. 7:22 – also have spirit - the knowledge of good and evil. Absurd, isn’t it?

Perhaps I'm thick but it seems as though you've added some other element to this debate that was not intended. The 'spirit' being discussed here is 'spirit' as in 'breath'. With this 'spirit' we live, without it we die.

The actual usage of the definite article “THE†to describe THE BREATH OF LIFE (not neshama) should have served as a hint that his/her theory is flawed.. Had it been the case, the Scripture would have specifically described it so, as it is clearly documented on this cited text below..

look and read….

John 20:22 “And when he had said this, HE BREATH ON THEM, and saith unto them, "RECEIVED YE THE HOLY GHOST:â€Â

As everybody could see, the text is very specific describing what kind of breath that was given - to avoid this kind of guidbox’ confusion.

YOU are the one who is creating the confusion, pillars. Why are you doing this? The 'spirit' that God breathed into Adam was - again - the breath of life. This is 'spirit' or Greek 'pneuma' which also translates as 'air'.

Now, to answer your question specifically -

Adam and Eve were innocent of the knowledge of the spirit (consciousness) good and evil until they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knoweldge. It was only then, they learned about shame and guilt of what they have done.

Our INHERITED natural spirit of consciousness of good and evil only came about after Adam’s had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

Therefore, your question of the hardening of the heart of Sihon king of Heshbon became possible because of the reason stated above.

God knows that natural man’s consciousness to good is willing, but, the flesh is weak, therefore, will necessitate his spiritual help. That’s why we are called upon, to be born again, spiritually.

Scripture also clearly documents us that unless you are born again in the Spirit of God, you CANNOT enter the kingdom of God.

Based on the above, how can someone like guidbox take a position that uncleaned spirits will return to God - who gave it ??? - is beyond my imagination.

Read my lips guidbox, God, who is Holy, do not pour uncleaned spirits to us, therefore, the same will not return to his Kingdom.

Read MY lips, pillars. You have gone off on a tangent - God only knows why - that is unrelated to the topic under discussion. Just stick to the topic. Please ...answer this question just as it stands. WHAT did God breathe into Adam to make him a 'living soul'? Just answer this and then we can perhaps move on.
 

Relic

Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2004
Messages
4,097
.

How do you eat an elephant? :-? :smt017

Too much going on to settle much of anything here. It's like so many issues are brought to the front way before any one issue is settled.

Not much accomplishment here at all, but just a bunch of quibbling with what myself and 2Pillars post vs. what you and CP-Mike have presented. :-? That's sad. Hopefully the bickering will stop and the truth that is undeniable will finally prevail. aye? :)


guibox,

Even though I have many notes from going over this thread. I feel the need to keep it uncluttered as much as possible right now.
As it is... there is just too much to weed through in this thread in order to come to some sort of organized debate. If that is possible.
I wonder.... :roll:

So for right now, I have one verse for you to think about... in terms of whether ALL men's spirits return to God once the body/flesh is in the grave.

quibox said:
What the Bible proves linguistically and contextually (and of which neither you nor 2Pillars has disproven) that ALL men's spirits go back to God
Because I beg to differ on your opinion and tend toward agreeing with the comment made by 2Pillars....

2Pillars said:
...Based on the above, how can someone like guidbox take a position that uncleaned spirits will return to God - who gave it ??? - is beyond my imagination. ...

... ... God, who is Holy, do not pour uncleaned spirits to us, therefore, the same will not return to his Kingdom.
The burden of proof is in the following scripture which most definitely says different than what guibox claims.

In the Word of our Savior Jesus Christ.
John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation
.



So then, John 5:28-29 Shows clearly that not ALL men will be going back to God. It is very clear, some go to damnation.

And so.... God does not allow the wicked to be in His Heavenly place,
but they are
away from, outside of the heavenly presence of God.
If I am not mistaken, I think this is relative to what 2Pillars stated above.



Also, once we have settled this matter I have to point out to you that the scripture above also covers, in part, the bit you believe about the consciousness of spirit once it has left the body/flesh. You may ask...How so? Well, not only does the above scripture show a separation from God to those who are wicked as to where they go after death of the body, but also, it is clearly indicative that those who "hear" the voice from out of their graves, (Notice they "hear" the voice) and that in itself, meaning that those who are asleep in their graves, are indeed conscious. The meaning of the word sleep, does not indicate a terminated spirit.
Example; Not much different than when I go to sleep at night, I am conscious, but yet, I am sleeping aware of my existence.

.

Now, as for the rest of your out of context postings .... :-? So much, so little time..... :sad I will address the rest of the issues you brought up once we have settle this matter. :)

How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. I do not like to have it all thrown at me as if in a food fight.

And so, if that is settled then we can move onto the consciousness of spirit issue. But please don't bog down the debate with a whole bunch of issues all at once. One or two is not difficult to keep things going smoothly, is it?


peace. :)


.
 
J

Julian Pyke

Guest
All i can say is, read the Amplified Bible... which provides description of just about verything, including spirit.
 
2

2Pillars

Guest
guibox said:
** Notice something VERY important here...The 'spirit going back to God' is not just for righteous but for EVERY man. Hence, even the wicked man's 'spirit' goes back to God. The Bible doesn't limit it or single out righteous people. Therefore, this spirit cannot be some 'immortal conscious soul of the righteous' that goes to heaven at death
Dear Readers,

It is shame that others will go out of their way to pervert the Scripture in vain attempt to support their distorted view. I guess, if they stop blaspheming the Word of God, he will let them understand a little bit of it. :roll:

Look and read what the Scripture says - contrary to guidbox and co. distorted belief


Matthew 11
43 When the UNCLEAN SPIRIT is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, AND FINDETH NONE.

44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

I hope the above will help to put an end to some of their doctrinal errors.


God Bless
 

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