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The 'spirit' in the Bible

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Well somehow we shifted from spirit to soul. LOL, this seems to happen a lot. OK, since we are now there, you said:

[quote:86100]So their destruction is everlasting; without an end. So the soul is immortal in a negative sense.

But this is for anyone to answer. I'm trying to fill some apparent gaps in both beliefs and don't want to look like it's just Mark and myself. How can we reconcile that statement with these verses:

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Remember, 1 Cor 15 is dealing only with the resurrection of righteous individuals. No mention here of the unrighteous achieving immortality. To achieve immortality, there must have been a time of mortality. This passage suggests we don't inherit immortality at death, but at the resurrection/translation/"rapture".[/quote:86100]

You seem to be talking about the spiritual body. What does it have to do with my statement? A soul must have a house. Now the house we have is not built by human hands. We are alive in Christ, and when this earthly tent expires, we fall asleep. It remains that the soul is either in prison, a spirit in torment, unprotected, or in Christ, protected. Being in the bosom of Abraham makes the point that Lazarus was protected.
 
MarkT said:
You seem to be talking about the spiritual body. What does it have to do with my statement? A soul must have a house. Now the house we have is not built by human hands. We are alive in Christ, and when this earthly tent expires, we fall asleep. It remains that the soul is either in prison, a spirit in torment, unprotected, or in Christ, protected. Being in the bosom of Abraham makes the point that Lazarus was protected.
It has everything to do with your statement. I'm trying to come down on one side or another here. I know full well the popular view but since there's evidence for a soul which isn't immortal, I'm not so quick to dismiss it as heretical. You said in your statement the soul was immortal. I asked how does one reconcile that statement with the passages I quoted, which seem to suggest there is mortality before immortality is given to the righteous and the righteous only.

I'm not interested in spiritualizing the text either; I prefer to deal with the Scripture in a more literal way (not literalistic though). Nor do I completely accept the popular understanding of Luke 16. Maybe if someone can show us where soul and immortality are used in conjunction with each other, that would help.

I just keep running headfirst into Genesis 3:4.

Thanks. 8-)
 
vic C. said:
MarkT said:
You seem to be talking about the spiritual body. What does it have to do with my statement? A soul must have a house. Now the house we have is not built by human hands. We are alive in Christ, and when this earthly tent expires, we fall asleep. It remains that the soul is either in prison, a spirit in torment, unprotected, or in Christ, protected. Being in the bosom of Abraham makes the point that Lazarus was protected.

It has everything to do with your statement. I'm trying to come down on one side or another here. I know full well the popular view but since there's evidence for a soul which isn't immortal, I'm not so quick to dismiss it as heretical. You said in your statement the soul was immortal. I asked how does one reconcile that statement with the passages I quoted, which seem to suggest there is mortality before immortality is given to the righteous and the righteous only.

I'm not interested in spiritualizing the text either; I prefer to deal with the Scripture in a more literal way (not literalistic though). Nor do I completely accept the popular understanding of Luke 16. Maybe if someone can show us where soul and immortality are used in conjunction with each other, that would help.

I just keep running headfirst into Genesis 3:4.

Thanks. 8-)

OK. The passages you quoted are not relevant if we are interested in the soul. Let's stick to one topic. Man became a living being, made in the image of God. The soul is the inner you; your person, your inner being, the innermost part. Everything that has an outer being has an inner being. Souls are automatically created when men are made. This is because man is a vessel made of clay. The vessel has an outside and an inside - the body and the soul. I refer you to Paul's explanation; the potter/vessel analogy, and Jesus, who spoke of the body and the soul, both, and the inside of the cup. Try and make a cup with an outside only and no inside. Make an outside only. See, as soon as you make a cup, you automatically create an inside. Take a coffee cup, for example. Tap the outside of the cup. You can't go more outside than outside. Tap the inside. You can't go any more inside. That is the soul; the innermost part of the cup, the innermost being. That is what is washed by the blood of Christ. And that is what I mean by the naked man. You don't want to go spiritual, but you must. Many will show up at the feast, but only the ones who have put on the garment of righteousness, which is faith, will be let in. There's another aspect to the kingdom, which is the house, because the flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, and the soul requires a house. That is the spiritual body. The spiritual body is immortal.

Perhaps 'immortal' isn't the right word when we are discussing the soul because we're talking about what happens after death, and what happens to the soul after the spirit returns to God. It's not as if the soul was mortal at any time. Maybe saying the soul remains or exists after death would make more sense.

The Psalmist writes, 'What man can live and never see death? Who can deliver his soul from Sheol?, and 'If the LORD had not been my help, my soul would soon have dwelt in the land of silence', and 'O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from Sheol, restored me to life from among those gone down to the Pit.' While we are alive, our soul thirsts for the words of God. It is written, 'Like cold water to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country.' Pr. 25:25 Jesus gave us the living water, the good news; the gospel. He came to us from a far country; from above.

What we hope for is eternal life. What the wicked hope for is death and annihilation. That's all. They don't want to hear about the second death; the lake of fire, where the worm does not die. They are thrown alive into the lake of fire. What happens when you drop something into a fire? It shrivels up. So what is left of them is shriveled up like a worm but it does not die. In any case, the soul remains after death, whether it goes down to the Pit, and it is kept there in prison until the day of judgment, or it is in Christ.
 
Many try to interpret the spirit as the soul and that it survives death. However, the two words ‘soul’ and ‘spirit’ cannot be used interchangeably, nor does either refer to something that is immortal. This “spirit†is not conscious or immortal, but the life spark that keeps us alive. It is the Hebrew, “ruach†, which is translated into English as ‘breath’, ‘life force’ and ‘wind’.

The body of dust is mortal. God said, 'My spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.' When you're talking about the spirit you're talking about the thing which creates something. The soul would be the thing that is created. For example, the spirit from God creates a new heart. Words are spirit. 'Life', for example. God gave man 'life'. God is spirit. God has 'life' in himself. 'Life' belongs to God. Words don't generally have 'life' in themselves. The name of God, 'the LORD', was granted life in himself. Jesus said, 'For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself' John 5:26

Spirits occupy living things, and they can be cast out. The word 'arrogance', for example. It can be cast out. There are also the spirits that are names; what we would call demons. They are names. They have no life in themselves but they can enter living beings and create madness. 'Legion', for example. Jesus cast out the spirits and they entered into the herd of swine.

You have to use spiritual terms to describe the soul. It's the innermost part of a man. The inner man that feels and experiences the spiritual things, the unseen things. The part that believes and knows and understands and stores up the words of God like an ant stores up food in summer. Words come to the soul like sweet morsels. They can also go to it like sharp arrows. To a man of understanding, as the Proverbs say, the words of God are life. He treasures up the commandments in his heart. 'For the commandment is a lamp, and the teaching a light'. But the man who has no understanding, doesn't take instruction, and he hates reproof. He loves death. 'Leave simpleness and live, and walk in the way of insight.' Pr. 9:4 I believe the Proverbs create a new heart in a man; a heart to understand the teachings of Jesus, to hear the voice of God.
 
Thanks for replying Mark. BTW, where did the quote come from? Was it from a post in this thread?

Hi Vic

Sorry for the delay. I've had my mind on so many things. Yes. The quote is from guibox's first post in this thread.
 
The words spirit and soul are interconnected, for life cannot exist one without the other. The word "spirit" comes from the Hebrew word ru´ach and the Greek pneu´ma, which comes from pne´o, meaning to “breathe or blow". These Hebrew and Greek words for spirit have the basic meaning of “breath†but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense. They can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit. All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.

Many confuse spirit and soul due to the churches teachings regarding these words. Their instruction is that the soul is "something" separate from the body and at death departs, being immortal. The Bible, however, says that the soul is not immortal, but can die. Ezekiel 18:4 says that "all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."(King James Bible) Or at Acts 3:23, which says that " it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."(King James Bible)

What, though, is the soul ? The Hebrew word for soul is ne´phesh, and in Greek, psy·khe´ . The connotations that the English “soul†commonly carries in the minds of most persons are not in agreement with the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words as used by the inspired Bible writers. This fact has steadily gained wider acknowledgment. Back in 1897, in the Journal of Biblical Literature (Vol. XVI, p. 30), Professor C. A. Briggs, as a result of detailed analysis of the use of ne´phesh, observed: “Soul in English usage at the present time conveys usually a very different meaning from [ne´phesh] in Hebrew, and it is easy for the incautious reader to misinterpret.â€Â

The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “Nepes [ne´phesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21]), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man-man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15, 17; 13.37).â€Â-1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467.

Thus, even as the New Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges, the soul is us as a person, with all our desires and feelings. Closely connected, the "spirit" of a person can be his life force, the very principal of life. The account of the creation of man states that God formed man from the dust of the ground and proceeded to “blow [form of na·phach´] into his nostrils the breath [form of nesha·mah´] of life, and the man came to be a living soul [ne´phesh].†(Ge 2:7) Ne´phesh may be translated literally as “a breather,†that is, “a breathing creature,†either human or animal. Nesha·mah´ is, in fact, used to mean “breathing thing [or creature]†and as such is used as a virtual synonym of ne´phesh, “soul", such as at Deuteronomy 20:16 and Joshua 11:11.

The record at Genesis 2:7 uses nesha·mah´ in describing God’s causing Adam’s body to have life so that the man became “a living soul.†Here at Genesis 2:7, the expression "breath of life" (Hebrew, nish·math´ (from nesha·mah´) chai·yim´), that God placed within Adam, ' blowing ' this within his nostrils, literally means the life-force of man or animal. Just as electricity causes an electrical appliance to function, so likewise does the "breath of life". Adam was a "dead soul" until God brought him to life by the "breath of life" or life-force.

Other texts, however, show that more was involved than simple breathing of air, that is, more than the mere introduction of air into the lungs and its expulsion therefrom. Thus, at Genesis 7:22, in describing the destruction of human and animal life outside the ark at the time of the Flood, we read: “Everything in which the breath [form of nesha·mah´] of the force [or, “spirit†(ru´ach)] of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died.†Nesha·mah´, “breath,†is thus directly associated or linked with ru´ach, which here describes the spirit, or life-force, that is active in all living creatures - human and animal souls.

At Genesis 6:17, God said that he was going "to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life (Literally, “in which the active force (spirit) of life [is].†Hebrew, ’asher-boh´ ru´ach chai·yim´) is active from under the heavens." Thus, during the global deluge, in which “all flesh (human and animals) in which the active force†was, these died because their “breath of life†left them. They died, just as the electrical current is turned off of an appliance and it stops. God said that “everything that is in the earth will expire.†Hence, every person or animal outside the ark, died. Referring back to Genesis 7:21,22, it says that “all flesh that was moving upon the earth expired....Everything in which the breath of the force of life ( Hebrew, asher nish·math´ ruach) was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died.â€Â

“The breath of life†(Hebrew, ru´ach chai·yim´) refers to more than just breath or air moving into the lungs. God evidently provided Adam with both the spirit (Hebrew, ru´ach, Greek, pneu´ma; Latin, spi´ri·tum ) or spark of life and the breath needed to keep him alive. Now Adam began to have life as a person, to express personality traits, and by his speech and actions he could reveal that he was higher than the animals, that he was a “son of God,†made in His likeness and image.(Gen 1:27; Luke 3:38)

Because breathing is so inseparably connected with life, nesha·mah´ and ru´ach are used in clear parallel in various texts. Job voiced his determination to avoid unrighteousness “while my breath [form of nesha·mah´] is yet whole within me, and the spirit [weru´ach] of God is in my nostrils.†(Job 27:3-5) Elihu said: “If that one’s spirit [form of ru´ach] and breath [form of nesha·mah´] he [God] gathers to himself, all flesh will expire [that is, “breathe outâ€Â] together, and earthling man himself will return to the very dust.†(Job 34:14, 15)

Similarly, Psalm 104:29 says of earth’s creatures, human and animal: “If you [God] take away their spirit [form of ru´ach], they expire, and back to their dust they go.†At Isaiah 42:5, our Creator, Jehovah God is spoken of as “the One laying out the earth and its produce, the One giving breath [form of nesha·mah´] to the people on it, and spirit [form ru´ach], to those walking in it.†The breath (nesha·mah´) sustains their existence; the spirit (ru´ach) energizes and is the life-force that enables man to be an animated creature, to move, walk, be actively alive.

Therefore, if one’s spirit or life-force (“breath of lifeâ€Â) is lost, he then dies. Parents pass on this life-force to their children, for only life can “beget†life. Thus, the soul is not immortal, for it dies when its life-force leaves and is now a “dead soulâ€Â.(Lev 21:11, literally “souls of one being deadâ€Â, Hebrew, naph·shoth´, plural, followed by meth, “deadâ€Â; )
 
MarkT said:
Many try to interpret the spirit as the soul and that it survives death. However, the two words ‘soul’ and ‘spirit’ cannot be used interchangeably, nor does either refer to something that is immortal. This “spirit†is not conscious or immortal, but the life spark that keeps us alive. It is the Hebrew, “ruach†, which is translated into English as ‘breath’, ‘life force’ and ‘wind’.

The body of dust is mortal. God said, 'My spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.' When you're talking about the spirit you're talking about the thing which creates something. The soul would be the thing that is created. For example, the spirit from God creates a new heart. Words are spirit. 'Life', for example. God gave man 'life'. God is spirit. God has 'life' in himself. 'Life' belongs to God. Words don't generally have 'life' in themselves. The name of God, 'the LORD', was granted life in himself. Jesus said, 'For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself' John 5:26

Spirits occupy living things, and they can be cast out. The word 'arrogance', for example. It can be cast out. There are also the spirits that are names; what we would call demons. They are names. They have no life in themselves but they can enter living beings and create madness. 'Legion', for example. Jesus cast out the spirits and they entered into the herd of swine.

You have to use spiritual terms to describe the soul. It's the innermost part of a man. The inner man that feels and experiences the spiritual things, the unseen things. The part that believes and knows and understands and stores up the words of God like an ant stores up food in summer. Words come to the soul like sweet morsels. They can also go to it like sharp arrows. To a man of understanding, as the Proverbs say, the words of God are life. He treasures up the commandments in his heart. 'For the commandment is a lamp, and the teaching a light'. But the man who has no understanding, doesn't take instruction, and he hates reproof. He loves death. 'Leave simpleness and live, and walk in the way of insight.' Pr. 9:4 I believe the Proverbs create a new heart in a man; a heart to understand the teachings of Jesus, to hear the voice of God.
well said Mark.
 
nadab said:
Many confuse spirit and soul due to the churches teachings regarding these words. Their instruction is that the soul is "something" separate from the body and at death departs, being immortal. The Bible, however, says that the soul is not immortal, but can die. Ezekiel 18:4 says that "all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."(King James Bible) Or at Acts 3:23, which says that " it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."(King James Bible)
Good post...I only have time for one comment. So I chose this statement to comment on.

You are correct that many confuse the spirit and soul, but it is not necessarily due to the churches teachings. They confuse it because they do not follow up with study of their own and probably misunderstand what is being said by the leader or teacher of the church.

Ezekiel 18:4 is not saying that the soul dies….this is clearly talking about the “second deathâ€Â, in the lake of fire. The spirit is the breath of life, and returns to where it came. The body returns to dust. The soul sleeps in Jesus if we are saved.

Eccl 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
KJV
:)
 
MarkT said:
The body of dust is mortal. God said, 'My spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.'

Mark, where does scripture say this?
 
Ed, it's in Genesis. It's the God-alloted time for Man to live before the Flood. Many people attribute it to God setting a lifespan, but it's not so.
 
Hello GraceBwithU,
You said why there was a misunderstanding of the words soul and spirit, that "They confuse it because they do not follow up with study of their own and probably misunderstand what is being said by the leader or teacher of the church." Have you considered all the Bible, and not just parts and pieces ? The soul does not "sleep with Jesus", but rather dies, for even Jesus said that he was "sorrowful, even unto death".(Matt 26:38) And of one's spirit (Hebrew ruach), it "returns to the true God" in the sense that only God can restore the "breath of life" to anyone that dies,(Eccl 12:7) by means of a resurrection.(John 5:28,29)

The soul is us as a person, with all our desires and can also be rendered as life. At Ezekiel 18:4,20, the soul is clearly shown to die. This has no reference to the "second death" as mentioned at Revelation 20:14. Those thrown into the "lake of fire" by God will never receive a resurrection from the dead. To further give evidence that the soul is us as a person, Leviticus 17:10 says that God will set his face against any soul that eats blood. Verse 12 says that no soul should eat blood. And as has been shown at Genesis 2:7, after God had put within Adam the "breath of life", he now became a "living soul.", not possessing a soul. The apostle Paul quoted from Genesis 2:7, saying that "So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."(American Standard Version)

Abraham was told by God concerning the covenant he made with him, that "the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant". (Gen 17:14, King James Bible ) Thus, the soul can live or it can die or be "cut off " Of the Passover, God said that "the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people."(Numbers 9:13, King James Bible ) When the nation of Israel were traveling in the wilderness, after having left the land of Egypt, they complainingly said of the manna: "But now our soul has dried away : there is nothing at all , beside this manna, before our eyes". (Numbers 11:6, King James Bible )

Even animals are souls, for God told Moses concerning taxing the "booty of war: "And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out battle : one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep". (Numbers 31:28, King James Bible ) Therefore, the soul is not immortal, for it can "be put to death"or can be "dried away". It eats, for Leviticus 7:20 says: "But the soul that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off from among his people". (King James Bible ) And just before the nation of Israel entered the land of Canaan, Moses told the nation: "When the LORD thy God shall enlarge thy border, as he hath promised thee, and thou shalt say, I will eat flesh, because thy soul longeth to eat flesh : thou mayest eat flesh, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after". (Deut 12:20, King James Bible ) Therefore, the soul or person with life, longs to eat, and when someone dies, it can rightly be said that one's soul has died. For as Jesus said on the night before he died: "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death." (Matt 26:38, King James Bible )

At Jeremiah 2:34, God says that "in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents:"(King James Bible) Thus, the soul has blood. It has breath, desires, eats, and dies. It is us as a person, with our life. The teaching of the immortality of the soul came Greek philosophy. The Greeks articulated this belief in philosophical terms. Socrates, the famous Greek philosopher, has been quoted as saying: “The soul, . . . if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, . . . goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear . . . and all the other human ills, and . . . lives in truth through all after time with the gods.â€Ââ€â€Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The concept of the human soul itself is not the same in the O[ld] T[estament] as it is in Greek and modern philosophy.†Yes, the teaching by the churches or anyone, for that matter, of the immortality of the soul, is not found in the Bible, but came from Greek philosophical ideologies. Interestingly, being a soul is not unique to man. Genesis 1:20 tells us that in one creative epoch, God said: “Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls (Hebrew ne´phesh ha·chai·yahÂÂ).†Even fish are souls!
 
vic C. said:
Ed, it's in Genesis. It's the God-alloted time for Man to live before the Flood. Many people attribute it to God setting a lifespan, but it's not so.

What amazes me is that someone can say something is in the bible and no-one questions it. Why?

All I'm asking is where is the scripture that says 'My spirit shall not abide in man forever, . . '

I know what it says in regard to the number of man's days, but that is not the issue. It is the statement regarding God's spirit I am questioning.
 
mutzrein said:
vic C. said:
Ed, it's in Genesis. It's the God-alloted time for Man to live before the Flood. Many people attribute it to God setting a lifespan, but it's not so.

What amazes me is that someone can say something is in the bible and no-one questions it. Why?

All I'm asking is where is the scripture that says 'My spirit shall not abide in man forever, . . '

I know what it says in regard to the number of man's days, but that is not the issue. It is the statement regarding God's spirit I am questioning.
I understand Ed. This is the main reason that we should state our Bible version. Myself; I didn't question it because my KJV says "always" and I'm certain I know what "always" suggest.

KJV Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Me thinks it's pretty clear. :wink:

But for reference's sake... Genesis 6:3:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=47; (ESV)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=50; (NKJV)

and likely the most literal;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=15; (Young's Literal)
 
mutzrein said:
MarkT said:
The body of dust is mortal. God said, 'My spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.'

Mark, where does scripture say this?

It's from the RSV; the corrected King James translation, published 1952.
 
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