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The State of Theology

Do you believe a person is righteous because of his actions or because of their faith in Christ ?


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JLB

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I was reading the article entitled “Distressing State of Theology” which was a survey put out by Ligonier Ministries and came across one of the questions in the survey which asked some questions which I will post a few below.


Survey respondents were asked whether they agreed (strongly or somewhat), disagreed (strongly or somewhat), or weren’t sure about a variety of statements. Here’s how those who are considered evangelicals responded to the following statements regarding basic beliefs about the person and work of the Godhead—prepare to be shocked by almost all of these:

  • 32% agree: Jesus was a great teacher, but he was not God.
  • 46% agree: God accepts the worship of all religions, including Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
  • 56% agree: Jesus is the first and greatest being created by God. (An additional 11% are not sure!)
  • 32% agree: Jesus was a great teacher, but he was not God.
  • 51% agree: The Holy Spirit is a force but is not a personal being.
  • 54% disagree: Even the smallest sin deserves eternal damnation.
  • 80% agree: God counts a person as righteous not because of one’s works but only because of one’s faith in Jesus Christ.

Here is the question I hope to discuss with some of you in this thread.

God counts a person as righteous not because of one’s works but only because of one’s faith in Jesus Christ. 80% Agree

Link below.



I actually view this as somewhat of a “trick” question, even though I know it wasn’t intended to be.


Here is the question again, with the change of one word to hopefully clarify the question for this discussion.


God counts a person as righteous not because of one’s actions but only because of one’s faith in Jesus Christ.



I guess it’s not really a question, but a statement to be either agreed with or not.
 
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Here is one of the verses that I believe was used to answer this question.


What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Romans 4:1-5


Key Verse:

  • But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,



JLB
 
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It begins with faith that we are made righteous by God's righteousness unto good works as we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
BTW, Ligonier Ministries was started by Calvinist Dr. R.C. Sproul who wrote the Reformation Study Bible in 1988 as an attempt to create a modern Geneva Bible with study notes done in the Reformed tradition.
 
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BTW, Ligonier Ministries was started by Calvinist Dr. R.C. Sproul who wrote the Reformation Study Bible in 1988 as an attempt to create a modern Geneva Bible with study notes done in the Reformed tradition.
revalant in what way?

john MacArthur ,also reformed ,is fighting against the laws against churches in California ,should we just call them cults ?
 
This lines up with barna studies. All that glitters is not gold. Full church parking lots do not necessarily indicate lots of soul winning.
 
revalant in what way?

john MacArthur ,also reformed ,is fighting against the laws against churches in California ,should we just call them cults ?

No real relevance other than just letting JLB know that website contains Calvinistic traditional teachings. Let the reader be aware of what they are reading, that's all.

What does John MacArthur have to do with Ligonier Ministries or the survey they put out? We are not talking about what he is fighting for. That would be another topic.
 
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Here is one of the verses that I believe was used to answer this question.


What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Romans 4:1-5


Key Verse:

  • But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,



JLB
James would add to that "how do we know Abraham believed God?" By what He did. That is his faith and action worked together. His "faith" was made complete. That's not the same as works to be righteous. For what work did the man on the cross next to Jesus do to have his sins forgiven?

You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is dead? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
 
revalant in what way?

john MacArthur ,also reformed ,is fighting against the laws against churches in California ,should we just call them cults ?

I dont agree with much of his theology, but I hope it goes well with his church against the liberals in CA.
 
It begins with faith that we are made righteous by God's righteousness

I agree.

However the key word is "begins".

Even still faith requires an action for it to be complete, otherwise faith remains inactive, dormant and dead, just like a body without a spirit is dead .

Do you know what the action is that completes faith and causes it to be activated and alive?
 
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No real relevance other than just letting JLB know that website contains Calvinistic traditional teachings. Let the reader be aware of what they are reading, that's all.

What does John MacArthur have to do with Ligonier Ministries or the survey they put out? We are not talking about what he is fighting for. That would be another topic.
most churches here unless they say other wise ,you won't know .
 
I was reading the article entitled “Distressing State of Theology” which was a survey put out by Ligonier Ministries and came across one of the questions in the survey which asked some questions which I will post a few below.


Survey respondents were asked whether they agreed (strongly or somewhat), disagreed (strongly or somewhat), or weren’t sure about a variety of statements. Here’s how those who are considered evangelicals responded to the following statements regarding basic beliefs about the person and work of the Godhead—prepare to be shocked by almost all of these:

  • 32% agree: Jesus was a great teacher, but he was not God.
  • 46% agree: God accepts the worship of all religions, including Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
  • 56% agree: Jesus is the first and greatest being created by God. (An additional 11% are not sure!)
  • 32% agree: Jesus was a great teacher, but he was not God.
  • 51% agree: The Holy Spirit is a force but is not a personal being.
  • 54% disagree: Even the smallest sin deserves eternal damnation.
  • 80% agree: God counts a person as righteous not because of one’s works but only because of one’s faith in Jesus Christ.

Here is the question I hope to discuss with some of you in this thread.

God counts a person as righteous not because of one’s works but only because of one’s faith in Jesus Christ. 80% Agree

Link below.



I actually view this as somewhat of a “trick” question, even though I know it wasn’t intended to be.


Here is the question again, with the change of one word to hopefully clarify the question for this discussion.


God counts a person as righteous not because of one’s actions but only because of one’s faith in Jesus Christ.



I guess it’s not really a question, but a statement to be either agreed with or not.

As stated, I'm not sure that this is a yes or no question. Indeed, we are made righteous by faith, and we are counted righteous by faith, (Rom 4:3) but that is just the starting point. As we grow in Christ, we learn that he has provided the means for " all the righteous requirements of the law to be fully met in us" who follow the Spirit, (Rom 8:4) and that "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning..." (1 John 3:6-8)

So we, by means of God's grace, are made capable of doing things righteously, but we become righteous in ourselves by means of our own actions. Synergy demands both God and man have vital responsibilities in our being made righteous. So I think it is both faith and action that God counts as righteous: by faith to the forgiveness of sin and becoming legally right before God, and by obedience to demonstrate the effectiveness of faith on our life after the initial act of faith.

Doug
 
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Do you believe a person is righteous because of his actions or because of their faith in Christ ?

It's not an "or" question because faith is an action, it is something done, it is obedience. Faith is not just a mental assent of the mind, it is not just mentally acknowledgment of certain facts and nothing more.

The question is based on the false premise "faith only" saves.

Since faith is obedience, can it be shown by anyone where in the Bible a person's obedience to the will of God earned them salvation, merited them God's grace?
 
It's not an "or" question because faith is an action, it is something done, it is obedience.

Yes biblical faith that is "alive" or that has been "activated", having been made complete , is done so by the corresponding action of obedience.

This is the "work" that James refers to in his example of Abraham.

Paul calls it the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


  • the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

This is why I chose action in the poll and not faith.

Faith alone can not save, can not justify, if it doesn’t have the corresponding action of obedience.

Of course where you and I differ is, you say that the action required is water baptism and I say it is confessing Jesus as Lord.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is the corresponding action of obedience to the Gospel command; Repent.


For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10


The command to repent must be obeyed for a person to be saved.

Repent means turn to God.



JLB
 
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Here is the question again, with the change of one word to hopefully clarify the question for this discussion.


God counts a person as righteous not because of one’s actions but only because of one’s faith in Jesus Christ.


When we are first being saved, (the action of repenting), by confessing Jesus as your Lord, is how we are made righteous;
justified, and forgiven of our past pasts, standing before God as clean and pure and holy.


Just because we have faith from hearing the Gospel doesn’t mean anything until we respond in obedience to the command to repent.



JLB
 
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