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THE UNFORGIVEN SIN

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THE UNFORGIVEN SIN
A. S. Copley
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

Multitudes have been greatly confused over these Scriptures. It becomes our happy task to explain this difficult passage which is not so difficult, when it is rightly read. Hebrews 10:26-29 should also be considered with it.

First, bear in mind that this epistle was written to Hebrews, or Jewish Christians, to set before them the redemption of Jesus Christ by means of the Tabernacle and its priestly service in the wilderness. Observe two very important pronouns in this sixth chapter: "those" (Verse 4) and "you" (Verse 9). Paul writes concerning the first, but to the second. These two classes are as distinct from each other as can be. Ponder and see these facts clearly, and you have the key to the problem. Second, remember that the Jews as a nation rejected Christ and the Holy Spirit, by turning down the ministry of the apostles after the Spirit was given. The Jews "were once enlightened, and tasted the heavenly Gift," (Christ), under Jesus' own ministry. They "were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good Word of God and the dynamics of the age to come," during the preaching of the apostles on and after Pentecost. They were made to know that the types and shadows of their Messiah, promised in their own Scriptures, were now fulfilled in Jesus Christ, that He was indeed the Messiah, and hence, that there was no more need of slaying bulls and goats. The only real sacrifice that could take away sins had now beer offered. Acts 4:7-14 shows that they were overwhelmingly convinced that Jesus is the Anointed of God. When they saw the power and boldness of the apostles and the miracles, they "marveled, and could say nothing against it." Were they not thus enlightened^ Did they not taste of the heavenly Gift and of the good Word of God? Did they not partake of the Holy Spirit for He was poured out on all flesh.

Observe the language of Verse One: "Having left the word of the beginning of the Anointed One, we should go on to full growth, not again laying a foundation for repentance from dead works and for faith in God." The truth taught in the four Gospels was "the principles of the doctrine of Christ." His substitutionary death was the all-sufficient foundation for the six essential things mentioned in Verse One. For Israel to continue offering the Levitical sacrifices was equivalent to laying again a foundation for repentance, faith, etc. And more, the apostle exhorts to progress, giving as a conclusive reason, verses 4 - 8, having given other arguments in Chapter 5:11-14. He would not have them to imitate in any sense, those who "sin willfully," or willfully reject the Messiahship of Jesus Christ. But the Jews rejected all that light. They turned down the Word and resisted the Spirit (Acts 7:51). They went on with their typical sacrifices, offering birds, bullocks and goats, by which they virtually said that their Messiah had not come; that Christ had not died for their sins. Such rejection was "sinning willfully," Chapter 10:26. For such people, it was "impossible to renew them unto repentance." They "crucified to themselves the Son of God afresh, exposing Him to public shame." By their conduct they said that He must be crucified again. Of course for such rejecters, "there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sin." They turned away from Him who "tasted death for every man," Jew and Gentile (Hebrews 2:9), and who "put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Hebrews 9:26). They have "trodden under foot the Son of God and have counted the blood of the covenant (that is, the blood of Christ), an unholy thing, and have insulted the Spirit of Grace" (Hebrews 10:29). If these quotations referred to common backsliding, then backsliders could never again repent and be forgiven. Disobedience to God, because of discouragement, or because of being overcome, is not willful sin. Stubbornly doing something, or leaving something undone is not sinning willfully, even persistently going against light, is not the willful sin of Hebrews 10:26. Such conduct comes because of "sin in the flesh," which has not been judged. Such failing saints do not deliberately reject the atoning work of Jesus Christ, or insult the Spirit of grace, but they fail, usually because of a misapprehension of the truth and fail to appropriate the full provision of grace. They do not count the old man dead, judging every motion of self the moment it rises, and take Christ as their only and all sufficiency. Therefore, there is a vast difference between Hebrews 10:29 and 6:9. The former cannot refer to believers, and the latter refers only to believers, who cannot "sin willfully."

"For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God; but that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned" (6:7-8). What a beautiful illustration from nature, defining the two classes of men: "those" who reject the "Lamb of God," and "you" who accept Him. The earth becomes fruitful by drinking in the rain which falls upon the ground, but that which is stony and rough, remains barren because it does not drink. The whole country becomes a partaker of the rain; likewise, all Israel were blessed with Jesus' ministry, and the Spirit was poured out upon them all, but only a few ate of Christ and drank of the Spirit. Jesus said: "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, ye have no life in you" (John 6:63). Israel tasted of Christ, they were convinced that He was the Messiah, but they refused to "eat" Him, or take Him as their Redeemer and Savior. They refused the rainfall, the Holy Spirit. Of course they produced only thorns and thistles of persecution. The burnings of just judgment await all who reject God's Son. Chapter 6:9 should finally set us at rest. "But beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." This group trusted in Jesus as the only Sin-bearer, but the apostle finds the reason for his persuasion in God's faithfulness rather than in saints. He adds, "For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love, which ye have showed toward His Name, in that ye have ministered to the saints and do minister," even though they had not gone on and grown as they should have. It was their privilege through the ample provision of grace to become of "full age," and be far more useful, and accordingly receive a much greater reward. And his epistle was written for our profit as well as for the Hebrews.

This is the essential meaning of Matthew 12:32:

An offense against Jesus as the Son of Man could be forgiven, but attributing the miracles of Christ to Satan, was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, because He wrought all His miracles in the power of the Spirit (Mark 3:29-30). It was a rejection of the atonement of Christ, because only by His substitutionary death were His miracles made possible. Sickness is the result of sin, and had it not been God's purpose to "put away sin by the sacrifice of Christ," He could not have empowered Him to heal the sick and cast out demons. Hence, to reject Jesus Christ as the only Redeemer and Savior by means of His sacrificial death is to sin willfully." This is the unpardonable sin. A believer cannot commit that sin, or "sin willfully," or "blaspheme against the Holy Spirit," because he has already accepted the atonement of Christ.

Gentiles as well as Jews are continually committing the unpardonable sin in rejecting the sacrificial atoning death of Jesus Christ. "All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men" (if they believe), because "Christ died for our sins." But the willful sin, the rejection of His death on the cross, cannot be forgiven because "there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sin;" that is, there is no other sin-bearer but Christ. All religions of works commit the unpardonable sin, because they reject the necessity of shedding the blood of Christ. "He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in Himself; he that believeth not God hath made Him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of His Son: and this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son" (I John 5:10-11).

A Reason To Sing
When I have a heavy burden
And my head is bending low
I carry it straight to Jesus;
It's the only place to go.
He can take all the sorrow
With the anxiety, doubts and fears.
He can take a heart that's aching
And eyes that are filled with tears,
Replace them with a rainbow
'Neath the shadow of His wings;
Suddenly the heart that's aching
Has found a reason to sing!
· Dottlee Duggan Reid
 
I 'grew up' with the above understanding of all the passages Mr. Copely uses. It all makes 'sense' (especially when you are a new believer who just loves absorbing all they can hear), but when I started to mature in Christ I started studying things deeper than I had learned.

One thing that I came up against, which could never be answered, is how this statement could be true -

A believer cannot commit that sin, or "sin willfully," or "blaspheme against the Holy Spirit," because he has already accepted the atonement of Christ
.

I do not think its a small thing to say that new believers desire very much to want to know their God and Savior, and want to do what pleases Him - and stay away from things that do not. So its natural to see passages, like the ones quoted in the OP, and have a 'good' Godly fear of not wanting to represent them in any way.

Here is the thing, while a believer should not sin willfully - it does not mean they cannot. While they should not blaspheme against the Holy Spirit - it does not mean they could not.

Spiritual truths that are presented like this, especially in the book of Hebrews, were written to believers. People devoid of the Spirit cannot understand Spiritual truths. 1 Corinthians 2:14

I really think that it puts a stumbling block in front of a person who has believed in Christ for their salvation, to then tell them they could never do anything that would effect that. Believers, just like unbelievers, are still tempted to sin. The only difference is that believers are set free from sin, while unbelievers are still enslaved to sin.

If we put forth the idea that sin has no effect on us regarding the faith, then we deny the very essence of that faith! Salvation is being set free from sin, not just being set free from the results of sin. To teach one thing over the other is to lead people astray. If a person does not believe we are set free from sin, then they have not believed the Gospel.

Here is the danger - sin separates our hearts from God. Those who have drawn near to God, by the faith they receive in Christ, who then let sin continue(or continually give over to it), become enslaved to the one who they obey.

Rom 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?


When that happens, because they "think" that they could never "do" anything to "loose" salvation, they continually deny the very thing that salvation brought to us - the VERY reason Christ died on the Cross - the very thing the Spirit of God leads us away from.

They deny those things, and give themselves over to sin instead - which is denying the same work of the Spirit that Jesus was manifesting to the crowds to testify that He was the Son of God!

1Jo 3:8
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.


So it is no small thing to think that because we "accepted" His atonement, that we can 'do' or 'believe' anything we want. A person who does truly accepts Christ's substitution sacrifice on their part, must also accept the fact that they are set free from sin in order to serve God!

The even greater despair comes when a person says that because another 'continues in a sin' that it means they never really believed. How sad is that really? We should help the ones who are overtaken in sin, bringing them back to fellowship, so that they will not wonder away to the eternal destruction - not tell them that they must have not 'believed' right, or 'believed' enough!

That puts salvation into their hands - into how 'well' they believe or 'trust'. Or, it tells them not to be concerned with the very thing they had believed(that the reason Christ appeared was to destroy the works of the devil) which sends them down the road of separation from God.

All in all, there is no reason to 'explain' away passages that we see in Hebrews to make them reconcile to a certain belief. When read for what they say, nothing has to be added to them or 'understood' a certain way to be one complete whole with the rest of the Gospel message.

Jas 5:19-20
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
 
First, bear in mind that this epistle was written to Hebrews, or Jewish Christians, to set before them the redemption of Jesus Christ by means of the Tabernacle and its priestly service in the wilderness. Observe two very important pronouns in this sixth chapter: "those" (Verse 4) and "you" (Verse 9). Paul writes concerning the first, but to the second. These two classes are as distinct from each other as can be. Ponder and see these facts clearly, and you have the key to the problem. Second, remember that the Jews as a nation rejected Christ and the Holy Spirit, by turning down the ministry of the apostles after the Spirit was given. The Jews "were once enlightened, and tasted the heavenly Gift," (Christ), under Jesus' own ministry. They "were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good Word of God and the dynamics of the age to come," during the preaching of the apostles on and after Pentecost. They were made to know that the types and shadows of their Messiah, promised in their own Scriptures, were now fulfilled in Jesus Christ, that He was indeed the Messiah, and hence, that there was no more need of slaying bulls and goats. The only real sacrifice that could take away sins had now beer offered. Acts 4:7-14 shows that they were overwhelmingly convinced that Jesus is the Anointed of God. When they saw the power and boldness of the apostles and the miracles, they "marveled, and could say nothing against it." Were they not thus enlightened^ Did they not taste of the heavenly Gift and of the good Word of God? Did they not partake of the Holy Spirit for He was poured out on all flesh.
I believe a word is missing in the bolded sentence above; can anyone fill it in?
 
Here is the thing, while a believer should not sin willfully - it does not mean they cannot. While they should not blaspheme against the Holy Spirit - it does not mean they could not.
Is speeding a wilful sin. What of any other sin listed throughout the bible? Did Moses willfully not believe God to be sent up to the mount to die because of it? And can you cite scripture to that effect?

You know, sometimes it comes down to the adage: "the devil made me do it" for people to say it isn't them sinning willfully. Paul comes close to that in Rom 7:17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. But then Paul after discovering who he was in Christ made this wonderful statement in Rom 8:1. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus!"

How could that be?
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but He (Jesus) that is begotten of God keepeth himself (Us), and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not. Are you born of God? and from your testimony I truly believe you are.

Thanks.
 
Paul writes concerning the first, but to the second.
I believe a word is missing in the bolded sentence above; can anyone fill it in?
To me that quote is also written in an indistinct manner, especially from a Yale graduate, but what I gathered from it is that Paul was talking to Jewish Christians concerning the fate of those that that had seen all the miracles, heard the word, and yet fell short of believing on the Lord Jesus.

Thanks.
 
I believe a word is missing in the bolded sentence above; can anyone fill it in?

I don't think there is a word missing.

"Observe two very important pronouns in this sixth chapter: "those" (Verse 4) and "you" (Verse 9). Paul writes concerning the first [those], but to the second [you]."

Paul is writing concerning (about) "those" he describes in verses 4-6, but he is writing to the Jewish Christians he addresses in verse 9.
 
I've always found the most puzzling verses in this vein to be 1 John 5:15-16 (NASB): "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death."

They are puzzling because they seem clearly to be talking about a Christian brother.

Here is a commentary that discusses in clear terms four possible interpretations of these verses and that also serves as a good discussion of the "unforgivable sin" issue in general: http://www.samstorms.com/all-articl...he-sin-unto-death---a-study-on-1-john-5:16-17.

It certainly makes sense, as Copley suggests above, that the unforgivable sin is an unbeliever's rejection of the Holy Spirit - remaining unsaved to the end. But if this is correct, Jesus' statement that sins against the Son of Man will be forgiven but sins against the Holy Spirit will not is a little difficult to understand. Copley solves this puzzle by distinguishing between sins against Jesus in His "human" role as the Son of Man and sins against Jesus in His divine role as the Son of God.

I had always understood that the unforgivable sin was attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan: "I now believe that what I once thought was a call to salvation by the Holy Spirit was nothing more than a deception by Satan." The problem with this, as Copley suggests, is that it requires us to accept that a believer who has been indwelt by the Holy Spirit can fall off the cliff to such an extent that he in essence "defeats" the Spirit.

As a proponent of OSAS, Copley's explanation seems to me to make more sense.
 
Copley solves this puzzle by distinguishing between sins against Jesus in His "human" role as the Son of Man and sins against Jesus in His divine role as the Son of God.

This is why I had wanted to break down the Son of Man part of Jesus and Son of God part, but many people got extremely upset with my premise and said there's no difference.
 
Is speeding a wilful sin. What of any other sin listed throughout the bible? Did Moses willfully not believe God to be sent up to the mount to die because of it? And can you cite scripture to that effect?

You know, sometimes it comes down to the adage: "the devil made me do it" for people to say it isn't them sinning willfully. Paul comes close to that in Rom 7:17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. But then Paul after discovering who he was in Christ made this wonderful statement in Rom 8:1. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus!"

How could that be?
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but He (Jesus) that is begotten of God keepeth himself (Us), and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not. Are you born of God? and from your testimony I truly believe you are.

Thanks.
Of course speeding is a willful sin - although, sometimes you could classify it as a 'unintentional' sin. Moses did willfully sin. I would never deny it. Countless people over the ages, believers from the beginning of time, have all willfully sinned. It's not a point of willfully sinning - its a point of continuing in that sin.

John was stating this very fact in 1 John 5:18. There is a difference between a sin, and sinning. The one that is born of God 'keeps' himself.

That point John was making, is that when the one who is born of God(born from above/born again) abides(keeps/keepeth) in Christ, he does not keep on sinning. When you go back to Johns start of the letter you see this manifested.

1Jo 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


When we abide/walk with Christ - in the light(truth) - when sin happens it most definitely shines on it. Here is the deciding point - do we then step over into the darkness because the light shinning on the sin is uncomfortable, or do we stay in the light and have the blood of Jesus cleanse us from the sin? It's very plain to see, that it is only in the light that the blood of Christ cleanses us - it does not happen in the darkness.

So to say that the blood of Christ cleanses a person who walks in darkness - even after they have believed in Christ - is not correct according to John. This IS the message.

It is why John goes on to say that the reason - not 'a' reason - Christ came was to destroy the works of the devil. He did not come to us, die on the cross, just so that we would feel confident about entering into heaven. Eternal life is always spoken of as a sublet, a beneficial outcome, of being in Christ - not the focus of what we believe in.

Salvation is not something to be achieved, it is something to be experienced.
 
I've always found the most puzzling verses in this vein to be 1 John 5:15-16 (NASB): "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death."

They are puzzling because they seem clearly to be talking about a Christian brother.

This verse coincides with verses:

1 John 2:9-10 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.

1 John 3:11-12 This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous.

So, this is referring to the brotherhood of we as humans. Sometimes it is hard not to take up prayer for literally everything, because that is how things get solved. For some reason, this is not to be prayed about and I understand why.
 
To me that quote is also written in an indistinct manner, especially from a Yale graduate, but what I gathered from it is that Paul was talking to Jewish Christians concerning the fate of those that that had seen all the miracles, heard the word, and yet fell short of believing on the Lord Jesus.

Thanks.
First thanks for posting this excellent expository sermon.

In exegesis an important tenet is to know the audience. Copley meets this requirement well. I listened to a similar sermon which opined on the audience of Hebrews, some of which may have returned to the temple sacrifices as not seeing the Atonement of Christ as sufficient. Thus eliciting the very direct comments of the Hebrew's author (Paul). Perhaps a linkage to the "foolish Galatians" comment of Paul in Galatians 3:

Galatians 3: King James Version (KJV)

3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
 
I've always found the most puzzling verses in this vein to be 1 John 5:15-16 (NASB): "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death."

They are puzzling because they seem clearly to be talking about a Christian brother.

Here is a commentary that discusses in clear terms four possible interpretations of these verses and that also serves as a good discussion of the "unforgivable sin" issue in general: http://www.samstorms.com/all-articl...he-sin-unto-death---a-study-on-1-john-5:16-17.

It certainly makes sense, as Copley suggests above, that the unforgivable sin is an unbeliever's rejection of the Holy Spirit - remaining unsaved to the end. But if this is correct, Jesus' statement that sins against the Son of Man will be forgiven but sins against the Holy Spirit will not is a little difficult to understand. Copley solves this puzzle by distinguishing between sins against Jesus in His "human" role as the Son of Man and sins against Jesus in His divine role as the Son of God.

I had always understood that the unforgivable sin was attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan: "I now believe that what I once thought was a call to salvation by the Holy Spirit was nothing more than a deception by Satan." The problem with this, as Copley suggests, is that it requires us to accept that a believer who has been indwelt by the Holy Spirit can fall off the cliff to such an extent that he in essence "defeats" the Spirit.

As a proponent of OSAS, Copley's explanation seems to me to make more sense.

Most, like Copley, believe that it is only a 'unbelievers' rejection of the Holy Spirit. When, in fact, it is anyone's rejection of the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not say that all sins will be forgiven unbelievers except blasphemy of the Spirit - He did not differentiate between mankind in their belief, or level of belief, when dealing with this blasphemy.

Mat 12:31
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.


It is anyone's rejection, including that of a person who has believed that Jesus is the Messiah. How? Because, Jesus brought salvation to ALL mankind. When a believer denies the work of the Spirit in their lives, to destroy the works of the devil, they are denying the 'power' of God that leads them to overcome sin. It is the very same power that Jesus was performing miracles with when He 'overcame' the 'sin' of people He healed - and what prompted the 'religious' leaders to blaspheme.

Mat 9:5-6
For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—“Rise, pick up your bed and go home."


The "unforgivable" sin, as it has been so called, is a life of rejection - a hardening of the heart of a person to this power God has. Its not a 'one' time event/sin. As you brought up, John deals with this very thing - and the writer of Hebrews does also.

Heb 3:12-15
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”


Sometimes the most obvious things hide in plain sight. Here the writer of Hebrews is talking to believers. Stating that they should take care that there not be an unbelieving heart in them, which would lead them to fall away.

All too often this passage is said to be directed toward unbelievers. That cannot be - simply because the writer is proclaiming that they have belief(or at least assuming that they did) - he wanted them to take care that there does not come unbelief that leads them away!
 
It certainly makes sense, as Copley suggests above, that the unforgivable sin is an unbeliever's rejection of the Holy Spirit - remaining unsaved to the end. But if this is correct, Jesus' statement that sins against the Son of Man will be forgiven but sins against the Holy Spirit will not is a little difficult to understand. Copley solves this puzzle by distinguishing between sins against Jesus in His "human" role as the Son of Man and sins against Jesus in His divine role as the Son of God.

Thanks for the link. As for the above, hopefully not contributing to the puzzle, we have this:

John 15: King James Version (KJV)
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

I bolded a few lines up above. However, of import is verse 26 to the discussion. The Holy Spirit testifies of Christ----Death, Resurrection, Ascension and coming again.
 
Of course speeding is a willful sin - although, sometimes you could classify it as a 'unintentional' sin. Moses did willfully sin. I would never deny it. Countless people over the ages, believers from the beginning of time, have all willfully sinned. It's not a point of willfully sinning - its a point of continuing in that sin.
And so did you give up driving when you found yourself accidentally speeding? :salute
John was stating this very fact in 1 John 5:18. There is a difference between a sin, and sinning. The one that is born of God 'keeps' himself.
To me it appears that you are attempting to give you the credit for keeping you instead of Jesus. 1Jn 5:18 in no way to me shows our need of keeping anything to be considered as to not be sinning: plainly it reads as "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not." I did not shed blood, I do not do the keeping, and I will not be the One responsible in any part of God's salvation. It comes down to why did Paul want to give up all in:
Php 3:8. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness . . .

Even the measure of faith we have was given us in Rom 12:3. We can not even claim the maturity many think they have achieved. We find in Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. It is then God can fulfill the righteousness of the law in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit in Rom 8:4. Can we really claim the victory in me, or give all the glory to God?

Thanks for your reply.
 
Thanks for the link. As for the above, hopefully not contributing to the puzzle, we have this:

John 15: King James Version (KJV)
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

I bolded a few lines up above. However, of import is verse 26 to the discussion. The Holy Spirit testifies of Christ----Death, Resurrection, Ascension and coming again.

So Right!

1Jo 5:6-12
This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.


Anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ is not just 'aimlessly' not believing something - they are rejecting the Spirit of God who is the one who testifies. In doing that, they are stating that what the Spirit does is 'worthless' - which is blasphemy in its fullest sense.
 
This verse coincides with verses:

1 John 2:9-10 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.

1 John 3:11-12 This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous.

So, this is referring to the brotherhood of we as humans. Sometimes it is hard not to take up prayer for literally everything, because that is how things get solved. For some reason, this is not to be prayed about and I understand why.

The notion that this is talking about the "brotherhood of mankind" is indeed one accepted interpretation. There is apparently nothing about the Greek word that requires "brother" to be interpreted as "fellow believer."

The verses remain odd and are among the most debated in the NT, and I don't want to derail the thread. Consider the language "There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this." Isn't praying for the unsaved what we do all the time? Perhaps it means "Don't request that someone who denies the Holy Spirit be saved anyway."
 
The verses remain odd and are among the most debated in the NT, and I don't want to derail the thread. Consider the language "There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this."
Good insight here. My thinking on a sin unto physical death for the believer is one such as the man in 1 Cor 5:1 having his father's wife.
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Again Moses was to go up and die in the mount because he didn't believe God in Num 20:12, and sinning against God in Deut 32:50-51. This was physical death; not spiritual death.
 
And so did you give up driving when you found yourself accidentally speeding? :salute
Most certainly not - but does that mean I always try to disobey, and care not what the laws of our land is? No one is saying that believers do not sin - but I would have to assume that if the Spirit of God was telling you not to speed - you are going to stop speeding, or at least not be careless about it. Being led of the Spirit is not a set of rules, its a life 'walk'.

To me it appears that you are attempting to give you the credit for keeping you instead of Jesus. 1Jn 5:18 in no way to me shows our need of keeping anything to be considered as to not be sinning: plainly it reads as "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not." I did not shed blood, I do not do the keeping, and I will not be the One responsible in any part of God's salvation. It comes down to why did Paul want to give up all in:
Php 3:8. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness . . .

Even the measure of faith we have was given us in Rom 12:3. We can not even claim the maturity many think they have achieved. We find in Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. It is then God can fulfill the righteousness of the law in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit in Rom 8:4. Can we really claim the victory in me, or give all the glory to God?

Thanks for your reply.
I can assure you - unequivocally - I hold zero credit for being kept in Christ. If I did not have the Spirit constantly turning my head the right direction each time I wondered off, no telling where I would be. This is what His discipline does for us.

1 John 5:18 might not say specifically what you do not see - but that is one sentence out of 5 chapters that John wrote. If you back up to the first chapter you see that John talks about us walking in the light. If you just back up to the beginning of chapter 5, you see that John speaks about keeping His commandments.

The original point I was trying to make is that 5:18 specifically states "sinning" not "sin". The whole point was it's not 'sin' singular, its 'sinning' plural/continual.

I so agree with what you say, really. It is all about Christ and His work in us by His Spirit. That's why it is so crucial to understand that when we walk contrary to the Spirit, our hearts become hardened by sin, and it is possible to reach that point(as is prophesied to happen) where we 'apostasies' from the faith.

The fact that God gave us the faith in the first place means to deny it, is to blaspheme the one who brought it to us - the Spirit of God.

Gal 5:5
For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.


This is why it is said, by Christ, to be 'unforgivable sin'. Because if anyone, regardless on what they have done/believed, rejects the Spirit of God - rejecting the faith the Spirit gives - rejects the righteousness that the Spirit brings by faith!

You therefore cannot have forgiveness because you reject it, not because God will not forgive you.

1Jo 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

It's all about Him - we can claim nothing. He simply gives us the choice to believe or not. If we believe, we walk in the light and we are cleansed from sin. If we do not believe we walk in darkness, and the blood does not cleanse us.
 
Slow down. LOL

By the time my Mississippi mind gets going you will wonder why I am dealing with the OP in ten different posts.

Word in hearts and minds.
What does the word in a heart yield?
What does the word in a mind yield?

John taught repentance and believe in the one who comes after me.

Jesus's death, Holy Ghost, fire (not in above passage), and powers are post / after John's repentance. To back up to repentance is backing up to before The work accomplished on the cross by Jesus.
First, bear in mind that this epistle was written to Hebrews, or Jewish Christians, to set before them the redemption of Jesus Christ by means of the Tabernacle and its priestly service in the wilderness.
Hebrews 1:1 KJV
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

All the words and symbols of the law became Jesus (word became flesh).

eddif
 
Good insight here. My thinking on a sin unto physical death for the believer is one such as the man in 1 Cor 5:1 having his father's wife.
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Again Moses was to go up and die in the mount because he didn't believe God in Num 20:12, and sinning against God in Deut 32:50-51. This was physical death; not spiritual death.

You bring up an interesting point Eugene.

Why was Moses sin forgiven, but the Israelite's who sinned in worshiping the golden calf was not?

Why was Moses name left in God's book, but the others had their names blotted out?

Exo 32:30-34
The next day Moses said to the people, “You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” So Moses returned to the LORD and said, “Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold. But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.” But the LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book. But now go, lead the people to the place about which I have spoken to you; behold, my angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit, I will visit their sin upon them.”
 
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