The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[for_his_glory]

If I understand you correctly, you saying God chooses who are His based upon whether or not they are "in His will and obedient to Him" and chooses who to reject based upon their disobedience to His will?

If I am understanding you correctly, then I have a question: does God have the choice of rejecting a person "in His will and obedient to Him" or choosing a person that is not "in His will and obedient to Him?"

God is not going to accept anyone who is not obedient to His will, commands and statures. Other words if you are walking according to the flesh and the rudiments of this world then you are none of His.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Hospes]

God is not going to accept anyone who is not obedient to His will, commands and statures. Other words if you are walking according to the flesh and the rudiments of this world then you are none of His.

I'm not sure how this is a reply to what I wrote or what I asked. I am, though, interested in knowing if I restated your beliefs correctly and if so, how you'd answer my question.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think you mean something different than what you write. You may find certain labels unhelpful, restricting, etc., but I assure you that you believe in them. You are labeled a "Staff member" and "Administrator". These are helpful labels to folks like me that need to know a bit about your role. Even the word "Christian" is a label placed on those who follow Jesus.

Never have understood the pejorative term "organized religion." Is it more admirable to be part of disorganized religion?


It is only in the last 100 years or so that the word "religion" has fallen in disrepute. In the scriptures - you referenced where James used it in a good way - it is a fine word describing the worship and practice of religious people. A person may have false religion as mentioned in James 1:26 (ESV) or have true/pure religion as you mentioned in James 1:27 (ESV)

Anyway, it's a shame we are losing the use of a perfectly good word for no real benefit other than we get to have the self-satisfaction of saying "Christianity is a relationship, not a religion."

I'm speaking about God's pure religion as in James 1:27 for this is the will of God that we love one another helping those who are less fortunate than we are as this is the works of faith as in Matthew 25:31-40.

Do you honestly think that God created all these different denominations/non-denominations that all teach another gospel separate from the gospel of Christ for what He has already taught.

When I say labels I am speaking about Christians that label themselves as, Calvinist, Dispensationalist, Jehovah Witness, Mormon, Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic, AOG, UCC and the list goes on and on. Everyone wants to be known by a name/label, as each and everyone of them claims to hold all truths.

If we are to be labeled with anything it should only be the church (body of Christ) as it was on the day of Pentecost and at Antioch when the Disciples were the first ones to be called Christians as they taught the doctrines (teachings) of Christ as they carried out the gospel message to the world like we are now called to do so by the calling of God and the anointing of the indwelling Holy Spirit that works through us to deliver the gospel of good news to the world.

The value of evangelism is to bring the gospel message of hope to all who will have ears to hear the word of God being preached and will gladly receive it like that on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:37-41. We are to be followers of Christ, not followers of man made religions.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm not sure how this is a reply to what I wrote or what I asked. I am, though, interested in knowing if I restated your beliefs correctly and if so, how you'd answer my question.

Your question was: does God have the choice of rejecting a person "in His will and obedient to Him" or choosing a person that is not "in His will and obedient to Him?"

I answered that in post #921: God is not going to accept anyone who is not obedient to His will, commands and statures. Other words if you are walking according to the flesh and the rudiments of this world then you are none of His.

Is this not what you asked?

 

[Hospes]

Do you honestly think that God created all these different denominations/non-denominations that all teach another gospel separate from the gospel of Christ for what He has already taught.

I am not sure what God intended regarding denominations. I don't see "another Gospel" being preached in all of them. In fact, almost all of the various Christian denominations will align with the apostle's creed and unlike the Muslims, I am not seeing where we are literally warring with one another. Believe it or not, we overlap way more than not on our beliefs. (I am not referring to heretical religions such as JW, LDS, Aminian, etc...

[Just kidding on throwing in "Arminian". Please don't hate me. ]

 

[Hospes]

Your question was: does God have the choice of rejecting a person "in His will and obedient to Him" or choosing a person that is not "in His will and obedient to Him?"

I answered that in post #921: God is not going to accept anyone who is not obedient to His will, commands and statures. Other words if you are walking according to the flesh and the rudiments of this world then you are none of His.

Is this not what you asked?

My question was do you think God has the free-will choice to choose or reject a person regardless of their obedience?

The question you answered was "What choice does God make in regards to a person not obedient to His will, commands, and statutes."

It's an important distinction.

 

[for_his_glory]

I am not sure what God intended regarding denominations. I don't see "another Gospel" being preached in all of them. In fact, almost all of the various Christian denominations will align with the apostle's creed and unlike the Muslims, I am not seeing where we are literally warring with one another. Believe it or not, we overlap way more than not on our beliefs. (I am not referring to heretical religions such as JW, LDS, Aminian, etc...

[Just kidding on throwing in "Arminian". Please don't hate me. ]

God intended nothing regarding denominations as He had, nor has anything to do with them. It's only another gospel when man tells you what or what you can not do by teaching a socially acceptable majority rules politically correct gospel.

I remember growing up in the United Church of Christ and every Sunday we would in unison stand up and recite the Apostle's Creed. It's like a statement of faith as what we believe in, even though some who call themselves Christians do no believe in the Trinity. I and many others do not believe in the Holy Catholic Church. The Apostle's Creed like the sinners prayer becomes so repetitious that there is no meaning to it. The words are mouthed, but truly never thought about. There is so much more to it then just repeating what is written on paper. The same with the Bible as it is so much more than reading the words printed on paper.

It does become a battle ground of sorts as we see here even in CF when Dispensationalist, Calvinist, LDS to name a few claim we are always wrong and they are right. I use these three as this is what we see more of in here. We all need to be walking in unity of the Spirit which is love for one another and not causing divisions and tearing each other apart.

The value of evangelism is to present the gospel of Christ Jesus in simplicity and in all truths being equipped and anointed by the Holy Spirit to teach others. Not everyone who calls them self a Pastor have been called of God, equipped and anointed by the Holy Spirit. I never take mans word as face value anymore as all things have to be proven to me through scripture as I have been mislead in the past, but never again. I'm not infallible by any means and I make mistakes and the Holy Spirit has to correct me, but the word of God printed on those pages we call the Holy Bible are infallible and it's up to each one of use to learn and trust that which has already been written. Apart from the Holy Spirit man can teach us nothing.

 

[for_his_glory]

My question was do you think God has the free-will choice to choose or reject a person regardless of their obedience?

The question you answered was "What choice does God make in regards to a person not obedient to His will, commands, and statutes."

It's an important distinction.

I see no distinction as I see both as the same question. Those who walk in obedience to the will of God and keeps His commands are His own and He will never reject those who are His own by faith. On the other hand if one has no faith and is not walking in His will and are disobedient to His commands then they have rejected God and He them and are none of His own.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

 

[Hospes]

God intended nothing regarding denominations as He had, nor has anything to do with them. It's only another gospel when man tells you what or what you can not do by teaching a socially acceptable majority rules politically correct gospel.

I agree that it is wrong to preach any other Gospel than the one in scripture, but do you really believe that if someone is part of a denomination then they are accepting from a man telling them what or what not they can do and teaching a socially acceptable majority rules politically correct gospel? Seems to me you are throwing out a large portion of Christians from your fellowship. (I don't write this as a criticism; more out of concern for you.

I remember growing up in the United Church of Christ and every Sunday we would in unison stand up and recite the Apostle's Creed. It's like a statement of faith as what we believe in, even though some who call themselves Christians do no believe in the Trinity. I and many others do not believe in the Holy Catholic Church.

FHG, what is meant by believing in the Holy catholic church is that you believe that all believers in Christ Jesus are joined together in the body of Christ, His Church. It is not speaking of the Roman Catholic Church. In this understanding, I'd be surprised if you do not believe in it.

It does become a battle ground of sorts as we see here even in CF when Dispensationalist, Calvinist, LDS to name a few claim we are always wrong and they are right. I use these three as this is what we see more of in here. We all need to be walking in unity of the Spirit which is love for one another and not causing divisions and tearing each other apart.

I kind of thought this was the place to work through our differences. Kind of an iron sharpens iron place. Also, you do realize that when you write that others "claim we are always wrong" then it necessarily means you think they are wrong? It really does take two to argue. Let's admit we are on the same playing field: none of us have the more virtuous position when we disagree.

 

[for_his_glory]

I agree that it is wrong to preach any other Gospel than the one in scripture, but do you really believe that if someone is part of a denomination then they are accepting from a man telling them what or what not they can do and teaching a socially acceptable majority rules politically correct gospel? Seems to me you are throwing out a large portion of Christians from your fellowship. (I don't write this as a criticism; more out of concern for you.

Yes, because I use to be one of them who believed everything that came from the pulpit.

FHG, what is meant by believing in the Holy catholic church is that you believe that all believers in Christ Jesus are joined together in the body of Christ, His Church. It is not speaking of the Roman Catholic Church. In this understanding, I'd be surprised if you do not believe in it.

When a statement is made in a religious creed about believing in anything else other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, like believing in the Holy Catholic Church for instance, then you are putting your faith in the church putting it above God as only God is Holy. The body of Christ that is joined as one has nothing to do with any four-walled buildings with a name above its door. There is no place in the body of Christ for division within all the different doctrines that come out of each denomination as it is all by God's grace through faith that we are reconciled back to God.

I kind of thought this was the place to work through our differences. Kind of an iron sharpens iron place. Also, you do realize that when you write that others "claim we are always wrong" then it necessarily means you think they are wrong? It really does take two to argue. Let's admit we are on the same playing field: none of us have the more virtuous position when we disagree.

CF is a place where we discuss and share with each other using scripture and or sources to support why and how we believe as we do. There is no place for arguments and debates that causes division and only brings strife instead of unity to the discussions. Everyone has the right to believe what they want, but when they try to force their beliefs on others and make statements saying they are right and others have no understanding then battle grounds are formed.

The ToS (Terms of Service) was prayfully thought out and given as guidelines that we are to stay in that everyone agreed with when they became a member. Many do come in with an agenda to force their beliefs on others and when it gets out of hand then the staff has to come in and moderate that which is happening and things are deleted and explanations given and warnings are given when necessary. Moderating is not done on the fact of disagreeing with members, but on how members treat each other during the course of discussions in what they say to each other. We all need to remember Gods greatest commandment and that is walking in love.

 

[Hospes]

Yes, because I use to be one of them who believed everything that came from the pulpit.

I am glad you have stopped.

When a statement is made in a religious creed about believing in anything else other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, like believing in the Holy Catholic Church for instance, then you are putting your faith in the church putting it above God as only God is Holy. The body of Christ that is joined as one has nothing to do with any four-walled buildings with a name above its door. There is no place in the body of Christ for division within all the different doctrines that come out of each denomination as it is all by God's grace through faith that we are reconciled back to God.

I want to encourage you to think a bit more about what is meant by the "holy catholic church". Historically and even now it means the exact same thing as what you call the "body of Christ". Believing in the "holy catholic church" is the same as saying you believe in the "body of Christ" Romans 12:4-5 (ESV). It really has zero to do with physical buildings, but rather the Church universal consisting of all the redeemed of God throughout all history. It is the bride of Christ. It is the building of God with it's cornerstone as Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:19-22 (ESV)

CF is a place where we discuss and share with each other using scripture and or sources to support why and how we believe as we do. There is no place for arguments and debates that causes division and only brings strife instead of unity to the discussions. Everyone has the right to believe what they want, but when they try to force their beliefs on others and make statements saying they are right and others have no understanding then battle grounds are formed.

Disagreement does not necessarily mean division and agreement does not mean unity. (People not realizing this is one reason why people divide into denominations or decide to be part of no denomination.) Paul in Romans 14 and 15 deals with how believers are to treat one another in spite of differences. He does not advocate that everyone align with one another on issues not central to the Gospel. But rather that we not despise or judge one another due to those differences and that we recognize that each of us have, in the end, only a single Person to whom we will have to give an account.

With true unity we can disagree - even strongly - and yet maintain love for one another. Of course, it means we have to make sure we recognize there are bigger and better things that draw us together than what we are debating. It is when our doctrinal differences become so important to us that we can't show patience, forbearance, and kindness to one another that we have ceased to place our love for God and one another as our most important commandments.

 

[for_his_glory]

I am glad you have stopped.

I want to encourage you to think a bit more about what is meant by the "holy catholic church". Historically and even now it means the exact same thing as what you call the "body of Christ". Believing in the "holy catholic church" is the same as saying you believe in the "body of Christ" Romans 12:4-5 (ESV). It really has zero to do with physical buildings, but rather the Church universal consisting of all the redeemed of God throughout all history. It is the bride of Christ. It is the building of God with it's cornerstone as Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:19-22 (ESV)

Disagreement does not necessarily mean division and agreement does not mean unity. (People not realizing this is one reason why people divide into denominations or decide to be part of no denomination.) Paul in Romans 14 and 15 deals with how believers are to treat one another in spite of differences. He does not advocate that everyone align with one another on issues not central to the Gospel. But rather that we not despise or judge one another due to those differences and that we recognize that each of us have, in the end, only a single Person to whom we will have to give an account.

With true unity we can disagree - even strongly - and yet maintain love for one another. Of course, it means we have to make sure we recognize there are bigger and better things that draw us together than what we are debating. It is when our doctrinal differences become so important to us that we can't show patience, forbearance, and kindness to one another that we have ceased to place our love for God and one another as our most important commandments.

I know the word catholic (little c) means the church (body of Christ) universal, but many equate it to the Roman Catholic Church for which I have a problem with, but don't care to discuss it.

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with others as the problem is with people trying to shove their belifs down your throat making statements of I am right you are wrong and just want to argue and belittle others because they do not believe the same way. We have seen this way to many times.

Unity of love is walking in the Spirit, not in the flesh as we gather together and discuss that of what we believe to be true. If one does not use scripture or their source like commentaries or websites they use to study from then no one should ever just take their word for what they say.

The greatest commandment is love and that is what is pleasing to the Father that brings glory to His name.

 

[PeterJens]

Give an example of something that exists that God did not create please. This would validate your assertion. What is the cause of this thing (or is it eternal and therefore without cause)?

Guilt for morality.
The argument about responsibility for evil goes back to ones view of creative guilt.
Adam said God created Eve, so if Eve deceived Adam, it was Gods fault.

God did not argue this point. And upon this hangs judgement and eternal punishment.
The first real question is are we all equal? And the answer is no.
Judgement is it punishment or clearing the way? If I make a work of art and then dislike it, by destroying it is this punishing the work or resolving its failure?

So we face a dilemma. If God sits over torment for all eternity of youngsters who are born and die before the age of responsibility, how does this equate to a God of love? If one holds life is a gift that can bear fruit to eternity if eternity is grasped through the gospel, things start to look different.

We all believe God foreknew the outcome of creation, yet he deals with us in the present moment, so the choices are real and cannot be reversed. The eternal result has justified the process and the cost, worthy is the Lamb, Amen.

The temptation is to look at where we are and think it is set, yet it is only set for history past, not for the future. That is the power of love from eternity working in our hearts to create new outcomes to bring glory to His name. I feel in ones heart if one can hold the eternal perspective alongside the present possible, one can begin to see the glory of Christ at work in us. I am always staggered at how difficult it is for anyone to find and see Jesus, but great praise when this happens. After sharing on forums, to many hurt and disappointed souls, it emphasises many are called few are chosen. I suppose one way I grasp it, what Jesus builds in our hearts no one can take away, it shows in all we do and say, and the elect walk on. Words talk round the realities, show different aspects, but only those who Jesus has met know it in reality. Jesus called this being born of the Holy Spirit, not something we choose, but His divine work.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

God is not going to accept anyone who is not obedient to His will, commands and statures. Other words if you are walking according to the flesh and the rudiments of this world then you are none of His.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

I would temper this with, if you love to not follow Gods will, to love the world and its ways, then you are none of His.
Many believers struggle with different issues which can take years to resolve and walk through.
Idealism and unrealistic expectations, a sense of guilt and failure which are not from the Lord are very common.
One common expression of this is when a partner dies, the other party feel guilty they did not do enough.
Or in conversations and interactions, the ability to summarise and judge others is the first reaction they have to everyone. Or in any stressful situation with possible difficult outcomes, everything becomes a worry with lack of sleep and imagining the worst. I share this because in our house group many of the folk struggle with these issues, and need a better approach, and knowing how to balance the emotions by faith declaration, and trusting the love of God alive working things through.

Another simple area is vulnerability allowing others to help you. So many use Jesus as a safety net but never allow themselves to speak their feelings to themselves or others. So faith is just another layer of trying to conform rather than a realise into truth and the Kingdom. I saw a training course for pastors, and one student discovered nothing they did was their choice, it was thinking only what others expected of them. That was a start of a journey to life, but quite a shock for them.

I share the above because it is easy to become judgemental and not acknowledge sin blinds us, and often the maze we grow up in is harder to see truth through than we have yet discovered.

God bless you

 

[for_his_glory]

I would temper this with, if you love to not follow Gods will, to love the world and its ways, then you are none of His.
Many believers struggle with different issues which can take years to resolve and walk through.
Idealism and unrealistic expectations, a sense of guilt and failure which are not from the Lord are very common.
One common expression of this is when a partner dies, the other party feel guilty they did not do enough.
Or in conversations and interactions, the ability to summarise and judge others is the first reaction they have to everyone. Or in any stressful situation with possible difficult outcomes, everything becomes a worry with lack of sleep and imagining the worst. I share this because in our house group many of the folk struggle with these issues, and need a better approach, and knowing how to balance the emotions by faith declaration, and trusting the love of God alive working things through.

Another simple area is vulnerability allowing others to help you. So many use Jesus as a safety net but never allow themselves to speak their feelings to themselves or others. So faith is just another layer of trying to conform rather than a realise into truth and the Kingdom. I saw a training course for pastors, and one student discovered nothing they did was their choice, it was thinking only what others expected of them. That was a start of a journey to life, but quite a shock for them.

I share the above because it is easy to become judgemental and not acknowledge sin blinds us, and often the maze we grow up in is harder to see truth through than we have yet discovered.

God bless you

Even as a Spirit filled born again child of God we still have certain struggles we deal with in this life as there is always a struggle, like a tug of war, between the flesh and the Spirit. I went through that tug of war and I thank God He prevailed in that war within my flesh. It's when we learn to walk in the Spirit and allow God's Spirit to teach us then that which is a mystery to us can be revealed in all truths.

Some of us have been called and anointed to teach, but we can not open Spiritual eyes or ears. What we present with scripture in that which we teach it is up to others to take those scriptures and study them for themselves as it is a dangerous road to only believe that which comes out from the pulpit. There is much deception out there as the spirit of Jezebel runs rampant in many churches blinded those from truth, just as the Nicolaitans in whom God hates.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Spirit works in behalf of Christ, giving Spiritual life to the Sheep who Christ died for and saved. But man cannot do that, Salvation is all of the Triune God and not of man!

So much talk about sheep.

WHO are the sheep Jesus speaks of?

John 10:16
16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

 

[brightfame52]

So much talk about sheep.

WHO are the sheep Jesus speaks of?

John 10:16
16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

The Sheep are the Elect or the Church the Body of Christ. Chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Sheep are the Elect or the Church the Body of Christ. Chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world.

Hi brightfame....

This is what I had asked you:

"So much talk about sheep.

WHO are the sheep Jesus speaks of?

John 10:16
16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd."


Your answer is that the sheep are the elect, or the Body of Christ, chosen in Jesus before the foundation of the world.

OK.

So who are the OTHER SHEEP that Jesus is speaking of?
Remember, Jesus said that the OTHER SHEEP are NOT of "this fold".


We'll put the two ideas together after you reply.
It's good to think things out on our own.

 

[brightfame52]

Hi brightfame....

This is what I had asked you:

"So much talk about sheep.

WHO are the sheep Jesus speaks of?

John 10:16
16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd."


Your answer is that the sheep are the elect, or the Body of Christ, chosen in Jesus before the foundation of the world.

OK.

So who are the OTHER SHEEP that Jesus is speaking of?
Remember, Jesus said that the OTHER SHEEP are NOT of "this fold".


We'll put the two ideas together after you reply.
It's good to think things out on our own.

The other Sheep are the Gentile Sheep distinct from the Sheep of the jewish fold. The Sheep are the Church Flock Acts 20:28

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

 

[Fastfredy0]

So who are the OTHER SHEEP that Jesus is speaking of?