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Theology isn't as important as....

DougK

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Do you ever get to that point when you want to lay aside all the theology and "deeper truths" and mysteries of God and just cry out to Him and say, "Save me, God!"

That's where I'm at today. Theology is great, but I could name some things that are a lot more important: honesty, faith and hope inside the process of prayer. Those are three things I see that are crucial to communing with God during prayer. Who cares if I am a messy with my theology. You can be a theological expert and not know how to communicate your heart to God.

Just thought I'd share that with you all.
 

WIP

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Just believe, no proof required. To me that is faith like that of a little child and Jesus said that we need to have such faith.
 

Tradidi

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From the Imitation of Christ by St. Thomas a Kempis:

What doth it profit thee to enter into deep discussion concerning the Holy Trinity, if thou lack humility, and be thus displeasing to the Trinity? For verily it is not deep words that make a man holy and upright; it is a good life which maketh a man dear to God. I had rather feel contrition than be skilful in the definition thereof. If thou knewest the whole Bible, and the sayings of all the philosophers, what should all this profit thee without the love and grace of God? Vanity of vanities, all is vanity, save to love God, and Him only to serve. That is the highest wisdom, to cast the world behind us, and to reach forward to the heavenly kingdom.
 

humble soul

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And from theology breedeth theologians, amateur and professional.Bound to produce ego and division.
 

jasonc

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And from theology breedeth theologians, amateur and professional.Bound to produce ego and division.
i get the statement but i must add a caveat. the study of bible is theology. no one person will exactly see the bible the sameway. the context here is not to allow minor differences to the point of division. and also be humble enought to see that the other side may not be wrong. i do want to say that one shouldnt be afraid of learning the bible from others set above you and if called to be one apt to teach.
 

Quantrill

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Do you ever get to that point when you want to lay aside all the theology and "deeper truths" and mysteries of God and just cry out to Him and say, "Save me, God!"

That's where I'm at today. Theology is great, but I could name some things that are a lot more important: honesty, faith and hope inside the process of prayer. Those are three things I see that are crucial to communing with God during prayer. Who cares if I am a messy with my theology. You can be a theological expert and not know how to communicate your heart to God.

Just thought I'd share that with you all.
No, never did. The time I cried out for God to save me, was at the beginning of my salvation. If that is where you are still at...you need to grow up.

Ignorance of doctrine, of theology, of the Bible, does not equate with spirituality. That is an old theme. Gee I am so stupid about God and the Bible. But that must mean I am so spiritual. Nauseas.

Quantrill
 

DougK

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No, never did. The time I cried out for God to save me, was at the beginning of my salvation. If that is where you are still at...you need to grow up.

Ignorance of doctrine, of theology, of the Bible, does not equate with spirituality. That is an old theme. Gee I am so stupid about God and the Bible. But that must mean I am so spiritual. Nauseas.

Quantrill
I can tell you've learned, in your "grown up" maturity a lot about love, and building up a new believer. not. I am a new believer, and I've studied the doctrine for a long long time but just recently have found Christ in a new way - his love and grace for me, which I believe for myself now. Besides, growing in salvation comes in God's timing, not ours. And I've never implied that I'm more spiritual in my op. I do believe though simple faith like a child's faith is precious in God's sight - whether you're a new believer or an older one. Tell King David he needs to grow up. He cried out to God to save him many times, and he could probably run marathons around you as far as theology goes. I just bet. :)
 
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humble soul

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Look, I'm not for one minute asserting I am the most spiritual person on this forum. Not even top 3. Possibly top 10 I'm guessing. God sometimes chooses the least likely to be on His A-Team. Whew...just made it...
 

Quantrill

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I can tell you've learned, in your "grown up" maturity a lot about love, and building up a new believer. not. I am a new believer, and I've studied the doctrine for a long long time but just recently have found Christ in a new way - his love and grace for me, which I believe for myself now. Besides, growing in salvation comes in God's timing, not ours. And I've never implied that I'm more spiritual in my op. I do believe though simple faith like a child's faith is precious in God's sight - whether you're a new believer or an older one. Tell King David he needs to grow up. He cried out to God to save him many times, and he could probably run marathons around you as far as theology goes. I just bet. :)
Where do you get the idea that David laid aside his theology and deeper truths of God, just because He cried out to God for help?

If you're a new believer, praise God. Don't get caught in the trap of ignorance equals spirituality. It doesn't. It just equals ignorance.

If you want to remain ignorant of theology and the knowledge of God, that is up to you. But that doesn't make you spiritual.

You seem to abhor 'doctrine'. Yet Jesus had His doctrine. (John 7:16) "...My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.)

Nothing wrong with theology and doctrine. Just try and get it right.

Quantrill
 

DougK

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Where do you get the idea that David laid aside his theology and deeper truths of God, just because He cried out to God for help?

If you're a new believer, praise God. Don't get caught in the trap of ignorance equals spirituality. It doesn't. It just equals ignorance.

If you want to remain ignorant of theology and the knowledge of God, that is up to you. But that doesn't make you spiritual.

You seem to abhor 'doctrine'. Yet Jesus had His doctrine. (John 7:16) "...My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.)

Nothing wrong with theology and doctrine. Just try and get it right.

Quantrill
You've really made a mountain out of a mole hill on this topic. I don't dislike theology. What is true though is sometimes too much thinking about how everything works and how everything fits together is not as effective as simply crying out in faith, "I don't know it all. And You don't expect me to know it all. But thank You for praying for me when I don't know how to, thank You for letting me cry out to You in my confusion and doing for me much more than what I can understand or put together." Personally, I find peace with this type of prayer. I've studied sound doctrine for 30 years, and feel like I understand parallels and concepts I can only barely describe. But to simply know Jesus as my friend, someone I trust, not the idea of Jesus but the actual Person - this takes very little knowledge, and this is more important than anything else. Period.
 

Quantrill

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You've really made a mountain out of a mole hill on this topic. I don't dislike theology. What is true though is sometimes too much thinking about how everything works and how everything fits together is not as effective as simply crying out in faith, "I don't know it all. And You don't expect me to know it all. But thank You for praying for me when I don't know how to, thank You for letting me cry out to You in my confusion and doing for me much more than what I can understand or put together." Personally, I find peace with this type of prayer. I've studied sound doctrine for 30 years, and feel like I understand parallels and concepts I can only barely describe. But to simply know Jesus as my friend, someone I trust, not the idea of Jesus but the actual Person - this takes very little knowledge, and this is more important than anything else. Period.
I was going by what you said. You said you were a new believer and now you say you studied doctrine for 30 years.

What can I say?

Quantrill
 

DougK

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In God's timing, I've been saved by grace. It's not by my effort I can be enlightened, only by the Holy Spirit. So don't make me look dumb or lazy. Praise God for saving someone who has spent most his life only learning doctrine and not learning to know the Person.
 

Quantrill

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In God's timing, I've been saved by grace. It's not by my effort I can be enlightened, only by the Holy Spirit. So don't make me look dumb or lazy. Praise God for saving someone who has spent most his life only learning doctrine and not learning to know the Person.
You won't learn more about the Person without doctrine.

Again, you want to make doctrine and knowledge of God and Christ out to be as though they are opposites. They are not.

Quantrill
 

DougK

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You can know Jesus Christ without thinking about doctrine. Do you think the blind man who was healed from John 9 knew anything about doctrine?? He didn't even know if Jesus was a sinner or not. He ended up worshiping Jesus after Jesus spoke to him later on. He then knew Jesus. Jesus is a person too, you know. Our goal is to know the Person of Jesus.

Now what you are implying is that I need to become circumcised to a law of doctrine in order to know Jesus Christ at all. That's not the Gospel message. The Gospel message is that Jesus came to liberate us from darkness, chains, oppression, blindness. Will He teach us doctrine? Yes. But it is not needed for salvation to occur. It is needed to understand salvation and to know Him better. And that is desirable obviously. But coming from a new believer, to know Him at all has been my goal. And studying more doctrine has gotten in the way of the simple truth of knowing Him at all. Kind of like Saul who knew theology inside and out but didn’t know the Man until Jesus revealed himself.
 
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humble soul

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There is a danger in oversimplifying the Christian message. "Just love one another". For one thing love means more than just being kind.
Also a danger in saying that a thorough understanding of all Bible verses, will somehow make you closer to Jesus and God. God doesn't favour the smartest Bible swat. Being able to quote several verses is no guarantee of salvation .
But I am humble enough (just), to admit I could benefit from more Bible study. Letters of Paul especially....NT other than Gospels...
 

Quantrill

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You can know Jesus Christ without thinking about doctrine. Do you think the blind man who was healed from John 9 knew anything about doctrine?? He didn't even know if Jesus was a sinner or not. He ended up worshiping Jesus after Jesus spoke to him later on. He then knew Jesus. Jesus is a person too, you know. Our goal is to know the Person of Jesus.

Now what you are implying is that I need to become circumcised to a law of doctrine in order to know Jesus Christ at all. That's not the Gospel message. The Gospel message is that Jesus came to liberate us from darkness, chains, oppression, blindness. Will He teach us doctrine? Yes. But it is not needed for salvation to occur. It is needed to understand salvation and to know Him better. And that is desirable obviously. But coming from a new believer, to know Him at all has been my goal. And studying more doctrine has gotten in the way of the simple truth of knowing Him at all. Kind of like Saul who knew theology inside and out but didn’t know the Man until Jesus revealed himself.
No, I'm not saying that at all. I have said that we cry out to the Lord to just save us at the beginning of our salvation. The only knowledge we need is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Saviour. But, from there we grow.

At the beginning, you can be 100% spiritual and know nothing more than what I just said. And God is pleased. But to advance in spiritual maturity you need further knowledge of the Bible and experience in exercising faith through the many trials God sends. Both are necessary.

If you decide Bible study isn't necessary, which is where you get your doctrine, then your growth is retarded and God is not pleased.

See (1 Cor. 2:1-2). This is a common verse usually used to show ones devotion to God. But in reality it is a chastisement from Paul that the Corinthians had not matured. Compare (1 Cor. 3:1-2).

What I am saying is doctrine is important to grow spiritually. And ignorance in doctrine does not equate to spirituality.

Quantrill
 

Who Me

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Do you think the blind man who was healed from John 9 knew anything about doctrine??
He may not have known much about formal theology, but he could think rationally.
Look at his reasoning about God answering people, it dumfounded the Pharisees so much that the only responce they had was to throw him out.

Yes one does not need to know theology, any more than one has to be a motor mechanic to drive a ca, but a little knowledge about basic issues helps one drive safely.

The churches fortoo long have disregarded an intellectual knowledge of God trusting to an emotional relationship.
Unfortunately this does not stand up to the barriage of atheistic arguments encountered when young Christian go to college.
 

Tessa

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Do you ever get to that point when you want to lay aside all the theology and "deeper truths" and mysteries of God and just cry out to Him and say, "Save me, God!"

That's where I'm at today. Theology is great, but I could name some things that are a lot more important: honesty, faith and hope inside the process of prayer. Those are three things I see that are crucial to communing with God during prayer. Who cares if I am a messy with my theology. You can be a theological expert and not know how to communicate your heart to God.

Just thought I'd share that with you all.
To get back to your original post.
I note that you say theology is great and I agree with you. We all have a duty to study God's word. But, we are all part of the body of Christ with different parts to play. That is what makes the body work. I am not a theologist but I read all the theology here and read God's word.
Yes I do stop and cry "God save me ..." ftom this temptation, from judging, from anger etc
We should always be searching our hearts no matter how much knowledge we think we have.
Where would we be without the gospel or theologists.
 
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humble soul

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If you decide Bible study isn't necessary, which is where you get your doctrine, then your growth is retarded and God is not pleased.
God is angry if we don't study the Bible? He must be carrying a lot of anger then, considering all the people who don't.
 

WIP

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I was going by what you said. You said you were a new believer and now you say you studied doctrine for 30 years.

What can I say?

Quantrill
I can understand how one can study doctrine for a long time and not be a believer. Some of the more solid atheists have studied the Scriptures extensively.
 
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