Theology without the bible? ....

[OzSpen]

One question, when you referenced your article, did you not realize that I was the Christian reincarnationist you quoted therein?

Kevin,

Of course I know you were the person that I referenced in my endnotes. You still evade fundamental biblical material. You prefer your 'reincarnation' experience over what Scripture states.

The Bible does not support reincarnation. Is this one of your unorthodox doctrines that you suggested in #2, 'I try to keep a low profile on most of my more unusual perspectives'.

Oz

 

[KevinK]

So you thought it was fair to openly debate with someone who had no way of responding?

You didn't see what I saw. It's something I'll never forget. Yes, it does seem to conflict with mainstream Scriptural interpretation. So a big part of my current journey is finding out why.

 

[OzSpen]

So you thought it was fair to openly debate with someone who had no way of responding?

You didn't see what I saw. It's something I'll never forget. Yes, it does seem to conflict with mainstream Scriptural interpretation. So a big part of my current journey is finding out why.

Kevin,

That's a false allegation about me about it being unfair that I stopped you from openly debating. I've never stopped you from responding. How would it be possible for me to do that. You have a free will to respond to my posts.

As for your second paragraph, basing one's theology on a questionable experience (that is contrary to biblical teaching), I find to be alarming and potentially sending you and others in the wrong direction.

How can you affirm something Scripture rejects?

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

It's important for us to understand the Greek word, hapax, in Heb 9:27, 'It is appointed for people to die hapax‘. What is the meaning of hapax? Does it mean to die multiple times, 10 times, twice or once?

See my article for an explanation of hapax, Is reincarnation taught in the Bible?

Oz

The Hebrew term for reincarnation is gilgul meaning cycle or wheel. Souls are seen to cycle through lives or incarnations, being attached to different human bodies.

The Greek term hapax legomenon is a transliteration of Greek being said once or something said once that occurs only once within a context either in a written record of an entire language, in the works of an author or in a single text.

These teachings are found in Asian religions like Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism and also in Hasidic Judaism where many Jews even today believe in reincarnation. The Talmud nor the Bible makes any reference to reincarnation, but actually speak against it, Leviticus 20:6; Colossians 2:8. The Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism) teaches a belief in gilgul/hapax legomenon being the transmigration of the souls as the belief is universal in Hasidic Judaism, which regards the Kabbalah as sacred and authoritative. These Jews fell into idolatry worshiping other gods as they did not heed the warning God gave to Solomon found in 1 Kings 9:1-9.

Reincarnation is a philosophical concept of Greek philosophers like Pythagoras, Socrates and Plato and still followed by Hasidic Judaism and the New Age movement that reject the true God of all creation and His Son Christ Jesus. The belief in reincarnation is an ancient phenomenon that is unbiblical and according to scripture is rejected as a false teaching.

(Ref: John 3:12; Romans 8:5-8; Hebrews 9:27; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28, 29; Rev 20:11-15; Genesis 2:7; Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 9:5; 12:7; Matthew 10:28; Psalms 104:29; Daniel 12:2; James 2:26)

 

[KevinK]

That's a false allegation about me about it being unfair that I stopped you from openly debating. I've never stopped you from responding. How would it be possible for me to do that. You have a free will to respond to my posts.

I meant on your Truth Challenge website. You reposted previous quotes from me and debated them without me even knowing until now. You even used my forum name. Not cool.

 

[KevinK]

How can you affirm something Scripture rejects?

I can't. But that's not what I'm doing. I'm saying Scripture does not reject it. The only passage that seems to directly refute it is Hebrews 9:27, and as I said I maintain it is an ambiguous statement (and it doesn't matter whether it's in English or Greek) that may not refute reincarnation at all.

As for your second paragraph, basing one's theology on a questionable experience (that is contrary to biblical teaching), I find to be alarming and potentially sending you and others in the wrong direction.

It isn't questionable from my viewpoint. I know where I was and what I saw. As far as alarming others, I don't actually wish to do that, and I'm questioning whether I belong on this forum any longer.

 

[for_his_glory]

I can't. But that's not what I'm doing. I'm saying Scripture does not reject it. The only passage that seems to directly refute it is Hebrews 9:27, and as I said I maintain it is an ambiguous statement (and it doesn't matter whether it's in English or Greek) that may not refute reincarnation at all.


It isn't questionable from my viewpoint. I know where I was and what I saw. As far as alarming others, I don't actually wish to do that, and I'm questioning whether I belong on this forum any longer.

Can you tell me in a private PM where you were and what you saw as it will only remain between you and I. I would hope you would not leave this forum as you believe differently on certain things then others do as many of us might not agree with certain things, but yet our unity is in the the faith and love of Christ.

 

[Anto9us2]

It is appointed a man once to die and KRISIS after that

There is no THE in the Greek there, it is not THE JUDGEMENT as in THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT

the THE makes it sound like that, but that's not what the Greek says

I ran into some Christians who did believe in reincarnation, at a Unity, not Unitarian church

I don't want Kevin to leave this forum - Hebrews 9:27 does not shoot down reincarnation.

"Who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

 

[Anto9us2]

In John 9:2, it is obvious that reincarnation was a viable option to the disciples for why the man was born blind. Jesus said neither the man nor his parents sinned in this case, but Jesus did not "shoot down" reincarnation.

That people in Jesus' time considered reincarnation in many forms to be valid is evident, the weird view of Herod that Jesus was John the Baptist whom Herod had killed is one of the weirdest forms of reincarnation seen, Jesus and John were like 6 months apart in age.

 

[OzSpen]

It is appointed a man once to die and KRISIS after that

There is no THE in the Greek there, it is not THE JUDGEMENT as in THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT

the THE makes it sound like that, but that's not what the Greek says

I ran into some Christians who did believe in reincarnation, at a Unity, not Unitarian church

I don't want Kevin to leave this forum - Hebrews 9:27 does not shoot down reincarnation.

"Who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

Anto,

To what is judgement in Heb 9:27 referring? If it's not the great white throne judgement, which judgement is it?

Oz

 

[Anto9us2]

"The" in "the judgement" in Hebrews 9:27 is a mistranslation. It is simply JUDGEMENT. Koine Greek has a definite article, does not have an indefinite article. The definite article could have been used, by author of Hebrews, but was not used.

IOW, the Greek could have said

'O KRISIS

to mean "the judgement".

Just says

KRISIS

It is JUDGEMENT after a person dies.

 

[Anto9us2]

I neither believe nor disbelieve in reincarnation.
What irks me is a passage in the Bible being slanted to say more than it actually says.

I also don't believe in a "purge" of the Bible to "get rid of verses that might lead to a belief in reincarnation. If there WAS such a purge, some glaring things were missed.

"Who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind" - I have already mentioned.

Jesus saying Elijah had already come and they did with him as they wanted could be made into a case that John the Baptist was a reincarnation of Elijah, I don't think that's true, but if I was someone editing the Bible to expunge reincarnation verses, I boo-booed badly if I left that in.

As to your question "which JUDGEMENT?" In Hebrews 9:27, it is not a valid question, a definite article was not used, there is no definite judgement referred to, the judgement is general. The reincarnationists that I encountered very definitely believed a judgement after each death determined a future state.

This thread as a whole is bizarre, I got in late just to point out that Hebrews 9:27 does not negate reincarnation, because that is trying to make the Bible say more than it does at that point.

 

[Anto9us2]

There are various "judgements" that we know of besides Great White Throne,
E
BAEMA , beaten with few stripes or with many,

Sorry, I am having such technical difficulties with this kindle that I cannot continue

 

[for_his_glory]

In John 9:2, it is obvious that reincarnation was a viable option to the disciples for why the man was born blind. Jesus said neither the man nor his parents sinned in this case, but Jesus did not "shoot down" reincarnation.

That people in Jesus' time considered reincarnation in many forms to be valid is evident, the weird view of Herod that Jesus was John the Baptist whom Herod had killed is one of the weirdest forms of reincarnation seen, Jesus and John were like 6 months apart in age.

John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Not sure how you see anything about reincarnation within these 3 verses.

Children are not held accountable for their parents sins, nor the parents for the child's sin, Ezekiel 18:19-21.

 

[Anto9us2]

If the man himself sinned to CAUSE HIM TO BE BORN BLIND, Doesn't that imply sinning in a previous life?

 

[for_his_glory]

"The" in "the judgement" in Hebrews 9:27 is a mistranslation. It is simply JUDGEMENT. Koine Greek has a definite article, does not have an indefinite article. The definite article could have been used, by author of Hebrews, but was not used.

IOW, the Greek could have said

'O KRISIS

to mean "the judgement".

Just says

KRISIS

It is JUDGEMENT after a person dies.

Whether the "the" should be there or not there is only God's judgement to come in what scripture calls the great white throne judgement. There is nothing left after we die except God's final judgement when Christ returns, John 5:28, 29.

 

[for_his_glory]

If the man himself sinned to CAUSE HIM TO BE BORN BLIND, Doesn't that imply sinning in a previous life?

Not necessarily, as it is just Jesus saying no one sinned that this man should be blind. It could be that those disciples might have heard the teachings and believed in reincarnation before following Christ and what He taught as Hasidic Judaism hold the Kabbalah as sacred and authoritative.

 

[Anto9us2]

We KNOW that Jesus said no one sinned to CAUSE blindness at birth - the point is that the disciples believed it was a possibility that the man sinned in a previous life to CAUSE HIM to be born blind. The disciples came to Jesus with that question - who sinned, this man or his parents... therefore it was a viable option to the disciples that the man sinned in a previous life

 

[Anto9us2]

The THE is NOT PRESENT in the Greek. No one claims that ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS are perfect, only original autographs in original language, in the case of book of Hebrews, that would be a Koine Greek Uncial (all caps) manuscript. It could have said
'O KRISIS
(The judgement)
It did not - it just said KRISIS

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

God hated Easu, but loved Jacob. With the question of who's sin is to blame I always took that in the context that God is all knowing, and knows the end before the beginning. In the same way that God rejected Easu for the things he would do in his life, but loved Jacob for how he would stay by God.

I never thought of the question for the blind man to be about reincarnation. However, when Jesus mentioned that John is Isaiah come back, that has always left me wondering. It's been explained away by someone how Jesus meant the spirit of power which Isaiah had is what the scripture is talking about, not about Isaiah being reincarnated. Nonetheless, that it the glaring verse to question reincarnation. At least in my opinion.