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Theology without the bible? ....
- Thread starter Not_Now.Soon
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Not_Now.Soon
Member
The rest of the bible leads to the conclusion of one life, then judgement, then eternity. That the dead go somewhere after they die, not that they come back and try again.
Either way, the message and the hope of Jesus has nothing to do with bring reincarnated, but with being reserected. That we can have hope in Jesus and the promise of an eternity in life, with sin and death gone forever. Why question it at all if it isn't the focus of Jesus's message and His promises. If reincarnation exists, fine, doesn't matter, Jesus returning and the hopes and promises being fulfilled should be our focus. In the same way of whether ghosts are real or not shouldn't matter, neither should reincarnation matter.
Sorry if that's blunt or harsh, but I think this has gotten a lot of focus and I wonder at what cost.
Either way, the message and the hope of Jesus has nothing to do with bring reincarnated, but with being reserected. That we can have hope in Jesus and the promise of an eternity in life, with sin and death gone forever. Why question it at all if it isn't the focus of Jesus's message and His promises. If reincarnation exists, fine, doesn't matter, Jesus returning and the hopes and promises being fulfilled should be our focus. In the same way of whether ghosts are real or not shouldn't matter, neither should reincarnation matter.
Sorry if that's blunt or harsh, but I think this has gotten a lot of focus and I wonder at what cost.
Not_Now.Soon
Member
My bad.
Anto9us2
Member
It was already pointed out that the Bible has instances where people die more than one time - Lazarus of Bethany, a guy Paul raised from death after a guy toppled out of a window, 12 year old girl that Jesus raised...
Therefore it is clear that Hebrews 9:27 is NOT ABOUT the fact that a person can only die once, but that there is JUDGEMENT after death - that is all that the verse says, and that is all that it means.
There are people that died more than once, OK? Lazarus, kid in Paul's window, 12 year old girl...
Maybe more than that, Elisha touched some bones and guy was raised.
AMPLE INSTANCES to debunk the claim that Hebrews 9:27 is a declaration that a person can only die once.
See it. Know it.
Therefore it is clear that Hebrews 9:27 is NOT ABOUT the fact that a person can only die once, but that there is JUDGEMENT after death - that is all that the verse says, and that is all that it means.
There are people that died more than once, OK? Lazarus, kid in Paul's window, 12 year old girl...
Maybe more than that, Elisha touched some bones and guy was raised.
AMPLE INSTANCES to debunk the claim that Hebrews 9:27 is a declaration that a person can only die once.
See it. Know it.
Anto9us2
Member
Elisha restored a woman's son to life. That, Lazarus, guy that PAUL raised after falling out a third story window, 12 year old girl - there's four people who died more than once.
So it cannot be TRUE that Hebrews 9:27 is a declaration that a person can only die once, can it?
That's why I am harping on this. To get the TRUTH.
Just read it CLOSE is what I am saying, sure, the prophets' names seem to run together - Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah who is sometimes spelled Esaias -- not simple, but not rocket science either.
If Kevin has some experience relating to reincarnation, who are we to dismiss it out of hand? Why? Because we don't like Hare Krishnas?
So it cannot be TRUE that Hebrews 9:27 is a declaration that a person can only die once, can it?
That's why I am harping on this. To get the TRUTH.
Just read it CLOSE is what I am saying, sure, the prophets' names seem to run together - Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah who is sometimes spelled Esaias -- not simple, but not rocket science either.
If Kevin has some experience relating to reincarnation, who are we to dismiss it out of hand? Why? Because we don't like Hare Krishnas?
Not_Now.Soon
Member
All of these examples have to do with Reserecting a person, not about a person being reborn in a new body and living a different life.
I'm sorry for pushing the matter on this, because I think our experiences should have the authority to correct our perspectives and philosophies. Not to say what is right, but if an experience contradicts something we believe, then that experience holds a great amount of merit. In that way if KevinK says he's seen something, then that's worth consideration for us, and even more consideration for himself.
However that does not relate to the examples given so far in the scriptures. Those are examples of reserection, having died and being given back their life. Not examples of reincarnation, having died and born again to a new life. It's a worth while difference to point out the focus in the bible is about a final reserection and living in eternity with God. If reincarnation exists, we shouldn't run and rationalize it by examples that don't deal with it. The details matter,mregardless if the arguments are right or wrong.
Anto9us2
Member
True, the examples of four people I mentioned are resurrection rather than reincarnation. It was not my goal to "prove reincarnation", just to show that Hebrews 9:27 does not negate it. Each of the 4 people get a "judgement" of some kind in which they are deemed OK to go on living.
Anto9us2
Member
"Experience" is one of the things besides Scripture that guides us - Scripture, Reason, Tradition and Experience are the elements of the Wesleyan Quadrilateral.
I have heard that Hooker the Anglican considered EXPERIENCE as part of REASON, so what Outler called Wesley' s QUADRILATERAL was not much different from Scripture, Reason, Tradition of the Anglicans.
In some ways, Experience is most important, in other ways, it is least important.
I have heard that Hooker the Anglican considered EXPERIENCE as part of REASON, so what Outler called Wesley' s QUADRILATERAL was not much different from Scripture, Reason, Tradition of the Anglicans.
In some ways, Experience is most important, in other ways, it is least important.
Not_Now.Soon
Member
I disagree with that in part. I think experience is very fundamental to our reasoning and our knowing what's right from what's false. However, I think is God and the bible are a higher authority then even our experiences and our reason. And in these cases the bible is not addressing Reincarnation.
If the scripture is not counted as at least a little bit higher on an authority then experience, then that can lead down the road of theology without the bible. Which was the origional point that was discussed in this thread. We've moved on to other subjects, but I have to stand firm that experience can correct our philosophies,and the bible can correct us regardless of our philosophies or experiences.
Think of Job for this one. The book of Job is largely about Job and his three friends arguing with eachother, and that Job wanted to make his case to God. The friends used their understanding of God to try and explain that Job was in the wrong and to confess his sins. Job's experience corrects their philosophy of what God will do or won't do, because he did not sin to cause what happened to Him. None the less when God finally spoke up at the end of the book, He did not rationalize based on their understanding or based on Job's experience. He said instead that He is the one who causes all things to fall, both good and bad, and who is man to question him. It's a tough lesson, but it should still stick. God is the authority. If He says something then that's how it is. If He doesn't say something then we have our intelect and our experiences to weigh the matter.
Anto,
How should we provide a literal translation of the words in Heb 9:27? Here are the transliterated words:
kai kath hosov apokeitai tois anthrōpois hapax apothanein de meta touto krisis
The Greek is: καὶ καθ’ ὅσον ἀπόκειται τοῖς ἀνθρώποις ἅπαξ ἀποθανεῖν, μετὰ δὲ τοῦτο κρίσις
How would you translate that sentence literally, word for word? Then, how would you translate it to make sense for the English reader?
Oz
Anto,
We are discussing the Bible and reincarnation and not miraculous resuscitation and then to finally die.
Heb 9:27 does not teach reincarnation. The examples you gave are not those of reincarnation but of miracles and later to be followed by final death on earth.
Oz
Anto9us2
Member
I would change only the THE which is not there, and leave it out like the Greek leaves it out.
ONCE he appeared,
ONCE man dies, then judgement after that, then
ONCE he sufferred/was offered
I mean, I like the KJV, but you know only it and NKJV and WEB have the extraneous "the"; about 15 or so versions leave THE out - Like all Greek manuscripts
Don't know what you mean to "make it different for the modern English reader"...
KJV is fine if you take the definite article away in English, it is not there in the Greek
How simple can I say it?
There is ONE ERROR - putting THE where it does not belong in KJV, NKJV, WEB - more than a dozen other English versions leave out the extraneous THE
ONCE he appeared,
ONCE man dies, then judgement after that, then
ONCE he sufferred/was offered
I mean, I like the KJV, but you know only it and NKJV and WEB have the extraneous "the"; about 15 or so versions leave THE out - Like all Greek manuscripts
Don't know what you mean to "make it different for the modern English reader"...
KJV is fine if you take the definite article away in English, it is not there in the Greek
How simple can I say it?
There is ONE ERROR - putting THE where it does not belong in KJV, NKJV, WEB - more than a dozen other English versions leave out the extraneous THE
Anto9us2
Member
To reiterate, Oz, I neither believe nor disbelieve in reincarnation.
And now I ask you - do you agree that the definite article is not present in the Greek in Hebrews 9:27?
Yes, or no?
My contention is that the unwarranted placement of THE in KJV, NKJV and WEB - which is absent from all other English versions (as it should be) - is erroneous.
And now I ask you - do you agree that the definite article is not present in the Greek in Hebrews 9:27?
Yes, or no?
My contention is that the unwarranted placement of THE in KJV, NKJV and WEB - which is absent from all other English versions (as it should be) - is erroneous.
what difference does it matter the judgment or judgment ?
Anto9us2
Member
Again, I assert that Hebrews 9:27 does not SHOOT DOWN reincarnation - I do not claim that it establishes it.
I claim that placing a definite article into an English translation WHEN IT IS ABSENT IN THE GREEK is not kosher.
Author of Hebrews could have written
'O KRISIS
but he did not, he just wrote KRISIS
I say "he" because someone once showed me where the author referred to himself with a masculine pronoun, til then I had hoped that maybe Priscilla or Phoebe might have written Hebrews, giving us at least one female scripture authoress, but the pronoun shot that down.
I claim that placing a definite article into an English translation WHEN IT IS ABSENT IN THE GREEK is not kosher.
Author of Hebrews could have written
'O KRISIS
but he did not, he just wrote KRISIS
I say "he" because someone once showed me where the author referred to himself with a masculine pronoun, til then I had hoped that maybe Priscilla or Phoebe might have written Hebrews, giving us at least one female scripture authoress, but the pronoun shot that down.