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Trinitarianism or non Trinitarian belief

ervin p

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Ok, I lean towards non Trinitarian view, but I admit that maybe Trinitarian view could be correct.
I would like to discuss it. I have searched the internet an have found on an interfaith forum following list of verses with a commentary that make some lean toward non Trinitarian view. which I am going to paste:

1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

2. Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

4. John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

8. Matthew 6:9
Our Father, which art in Heaven.
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

10. John 17:21-23
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

12. Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

14. Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation

How do brothers and sisters on this forum explain the above verses in a Trinitarian view?

Also, pretty much everyone knows that word Trinitarian is not from the Bible.
 

stovebolts

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Hi Ervin,
As attested in our statement of faith, we uphold the doctrine of the Trinity.
We admit that the full extent of the Trinity remains a mystery.
The jist behind the doctrine is oneness within the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This oneness is in perfect harmony, as many of the verses attest to. When one entity within the Trinity is honored, all entities within the Trinity are honored.

John 13:24
NIV
"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

It is this love between the Father and the Son that we enter into when we are one with Christ.

1Corinthians 1:30
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”
 

WIP

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Also, pretty much everyone knows that word Trinitarian is not from the Bible.
This is true but doesn't negate the truth of what the word Trinity means. The word "Trinity" is a descriptive term used to define the essence of who God is.

Likewise, the title "Bible" is also a human attributed term used to define the congregation of books/writings that we believe encompass the Word of God. God didn't inspire the Bible. What He did was inspire the many works that we have grouped together and now refer to as the Bible.
 

Who Me

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but I admit that maybe Trinitarian view could be correct.
Then why aren't you reading books and articles that support the trinitarian view.

You are aware that your " challenging " verses are all explained by the biblical statement that Jesus emptied himself of his Godly powers, become a servant.

Also of Jesus and the Spirit are not part of the Godhead why are we to baptize in the name of God the Father, God the Son and God the holy Spirit?
 

ervin p

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Can the following from Job mean that Jesus is somehow God Almighty in flesh?

Job19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end He will stand on the earth
 

jasonc

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Can the following from Job mean that Jesus is somehow God Almighty in flesh?

Job19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end He will stand on the earth
It would better supported by Isaiah
 

Who Me

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Jesus is somehow God Almighty in flesh
What biblical evidence do you have that shows Jesus doesn't have a physical body.
The disciples touched him, saw him eat fish, they knew Jesus had physically been raised to life and they saw him physically scene into the air.

It is clear to me Jesus has a physical body.

That Jesus is God is seen in that he accepted worship, something no prophet, apostle or angel ever has.
He forgave sins in his authority and only God can do that.
Lastly he identified Almighty God as his Father.
While you may believe in evolution, no evolutionist will accept that in one generation a new species will appear, so Jesus, the Son of God is by nature of being the Son of a God is also a God.
 

ervin p

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What biblical evidence do you have that shows Jesus doesn't have a physical body.
The disciples touched him, saw him eat fish, they knew Jesus had physically been raised to life and they saw him physically scene into the air.

It is clear to me Jesus has a physical body.

That Jesus is God is seen in that he accepted worship, something no prophet, apostle or angel ever has.
He forgave sins in his authority and only God can do that.
Lastly he identified Almighty God as his Father.
While you may believe in evolution, no evolutionist will accept that in one generation a new species will appear, so Jesus, the Son of God is by nature of being the Son of a God is also a God.
I don’t believe in evolution. I believe in the literal creation story as written in the Bible.

I just find it a little bit hard to believe that Jesus is somehow Lord God Almighty. However I do believe that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God and that therefore Jesus is above everyone, like above humans and angels.

Maybe Jesus is God come in flesh. This thread is to work that out, which one it is. I know that this forum is Trinitarian Christian forum. I am interested in whatever the truth is. If a so called Trinitarian view is true than I would like to know that.

I posted arguments for a non Trinitarian view and it would be good to get explanations for those verses by a Trinitarian/s.
 

EJStevens65

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Read Isaiah 48:16-17 and remember that Jesus was made lower than the angels to suffer death, Hebrew 2:9. Yes Jesus is God as stated, John 1:1. His Blood is God’s, Acts 20:28. The 3 Members of the Godhead are also mention in II Corinthians 13:14. By the way Godhead is a term in the which is basically meant Trinity used in Acts 17:29 and Colossians 2:9.

Jesus was made poor (Human) that we might be rich, II Corinthians 8:9! He is God but submitted Himself to death so He could be our High Priest, Hebrews 2:17-18. The First Fruit of the Dead by His Resurrection as Paul states in I Corinthians 15:20-23.

The Father is call Mighty God in Isaiah 10:20, just as the Son is in Isaiah 9:6-7. All 3 Members of the Godhead are seen by Abraham in Genesis 18-19. Isaiah again refers to the Godhead in Isaiah 60:8-10.
 

stovebolts

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Maybe Jesus is God come in flesh. This thread is to work that out, which one it is. I know that this forum is Trinitarian Christian forum. I am interested in whatever the truth is. If a so called Trinitarian view is true than I would like to know that.
In terms of Trinity, the expression will never be fully hammered out. The more one hammers on it, the more division that can be created. In other words, it's not a deal breaker.

Here is what I've found, and keep close, but is not widly accepted. The word God is not a Hebrew word. They borrowed it from Sumeria and we know it as Elohim, which is plural. In the Ancient Near East, El was singular and represented the head of the pantheon. However, when El was acting under the unity of the pantheon, his title was Elohim.

Within the Bible, God has many names, such as El Shaddia, etc. Again, El is borrowed from the ANE. All of God's names points to an attribute of the singular name YHVH, or as some translation say Jehovah or Yahwey.

This is where it gets fun. Numbers in ancient Hebrew. All of the numbers in ancient Hebrew represented a literal numerical count with exception of one. One could be used as a literal value, bit it was thought of as completeness because one was complete.

YHVH is complete, but YHVH is not detached by his numerous names. Instead, YHVH could be considered the culmination of all of his other names. Hence Elohim.

Are you following so far? I'll pause for now.
 

Who Me

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Maybe Jesus is God come in flesh.
I have answered your verses.
You need to reread my last line of my post.
I'll write it again.
If Jesus is the Son of God he because he is the Son of God is naturally God.
 

LovethroughDove

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I sometimes hesitate to talk about trinitarian views, cause I don't know if I quite understand it. I think the part I really don't agree with, is that I think trinitarians believe the Father and Son are co-equal in power. I believe the Son is submissive to the Father and that is why the Father has given all trust to the Son. In turn, believers fall under the authority of the Son because he knows where he stands in the big picture.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

John 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me." - -looks like you already posted this, but it matters

John 14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
 

JLB

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Ok, I lean towards non Trinitarian view, but I admit that maybe Trinitarian view could be correct.
I would like to discuss it. I have searched the internet an have found on an interfaith forum following list of verses with a commentary that make some lean toward non Trinitarian view. which I am going to paste:

1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

2. Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

4. John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

8. Matthew 6:9
Our Father, which art in Heaven.
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

10. John 17:21-23
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

12. Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

14. Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation

How do brothers and sisters on this forum explain the above verses in a Trinitarian view?

Also, pretty much everyone knows that word Trinitarian is not from the Bible.

Hi and welcome to the Community.

Glad to have you.

Here’s one verse to throw into the mix.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7




JLB
 

ervin p

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Hi and welcome to the Community.

Glad to have you.

Here’s one verse to throw into the mix.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7




JLB
Thanks, it’s a wonderful verse.
 

WIP

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I sometimes hesitate to talk about trinitarian views, cause I don't know if I quite understand it. I think the part I really don't agree with, is that I think trinitarians believe the Father and Son are co-equal in power. I believe the Son is submissive to the Father and that is why the Father has given all trust to the Son. In turn, believers fall under the authority of the Son because he knows where he stands in the big picture.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

John 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me." - -looks like you already posted this, but it matters

John 14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
I think part of the challenge for you is that you are applying a human trait.... that of our desire to acquire or hold positions of power. This is something I do not believe is even on the radar or hope or thought of either the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. They are all coequal and none is in a power struggle with the other.
 

Son of Israel

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Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

I worship One Lord God.

My One Lord God is Jesus;

(Act 10:36) The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by >>>Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)<<<
 

Son of Israel

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Hi and welcome to the Community.

Glad to have you.

Here’s one verse to throw into the mix.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

JLB
The one and only "trinity" scripture... and it is a spurious reference and is not cannon. That is properly why it isn't in most other versions;

To educate ones self on this topic here is one of many sites;


Be sure to become acquainted with a version that reads properly such as;

ASV
1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.
1Jn 5:7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.
 

JLB

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The one and only "trinity" scripture... and it is a spurious reference and is not cannon. That is properly why it isn't in most other versions;

To educate ones self on this topic here is one of many sites;


Be sure to become acquainted with a version that reads properly such as;

ASV
1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.
1Jn 5:7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.

Do you believe and confess Jesus Christ is Lord; YHWH the Lord God of Israel, our Savior?


For thus says the LORD,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:
“I am the LORD, and there is no other.
Isaiah 45:18



JLB
 

Son of Israel

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Do you believe and confess Jesus Christ is Lord; YHWH the Lord God of Israel, our Savior?


For thus says the LORD,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:
“I am the LORD, and there is no other.
Isaiah 45:18



JLB
Of course.

Jesus is my One Lord God.

(Mar 12:29) And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

(Joh 20:28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Act_10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

I confess Jesus Christ is come in my flesh temple body;

(Col 1:27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

(2Co 6:16) And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will >>>dwell in them, and walk in them;<<< and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

(1Jn 4:2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Do you?

Or are you a "trinitarian"?
 

for_his_glory

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1. God is Spirit, John 4:24, not flesh and blood and in the OT either spoke directly to the prophets or by angels and also various objects like a burning bush or an ass for example. Between the OT and NT God was silent towards Israel as when they returned to Israel from the Babylonian captivity they came back as merchants and not shepherds as they were disobedient to God going after other gods, Book of Malachi.

2. Jesus being the very Spirit of God before the foundation of the world as He and the Father are one was prophesied by the Prophets in the OT and spoken of by John the baptist in the NT as John being the forerunner of Christ calling all to repent. As foretold Christ did come as the word of God made flesh (skin, bone, blood) to be that light that shines in darkness. He came as redeemer Savior through Gods grace as Christ is our faith that all can repent of their sins and have eternal life with the Father to all who will believe in Him as Lord and Savior. John 1:1-4; 1 Peter 1:13-21

3. After the sacrifice of Christ God raised Him from the grave and as He had to ascend back up to heaven the promise was that He would never leave us or forsake us as when He ascended He sent down the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God) to indwell all who will believe in Christ and His finished works on the cross. In the OT Gods Spirit fell on them for a time and purpose under heaven. Now we are indwelled with that power and authority through Gods grace that the Holy Spirit now works in us and through us teaching all things God wants us to learn. All three are Spiritual and Spiritual awakenings in us to know the will of God and walk in His statures. John 16:7-15

Ephesians 4: 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as all three coequal Gods Spirit.

Jesus being the right arm of God. Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Jesus is the word of God. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus is word, light and life that is God come in the flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Gods Holy Spirit has come to indwell us and teach us. John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20
 
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