Unconditional perseverance study

[jasonc]

this is the key never saved

yet the term backsliding is used,can't fall away from something if you never climbed it .

 

[jerry63935]

yet the term backsliding is used,can't fall away from something if you never climbed it .

yes they teach backsliding personally i believe a true Child of God will return just like the prodigal son . what most dont understand is Judgment belongs to God through Christ . if we follow the Bible we are watchman and we are to sound the trumpet of warning .if we dont their blood is on us.. i just simply am not into the game can you or can you not.. we can know i had much rather leave this life knowing i was trying to do right with God. than leave knowing i was not

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

this is the key never saved

And we know that how?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No such thing as an OSAS doctrine.
You either know you are saved or you don't.

You do in fact know you are saved in non-OSAS.
You can't see that because you instantly hear 'saved' as 'always saved' in your mind.

It's the famous circular reasoning of the OSAS argument.
It goes like this: We know a person is saved forever because they are saved.

 

[jasonc]

You do in fact know you are saved in non-OSAS.
You can't see that because you instantly hear 'saved' as 'always saved' in your mind.

It's the famous circular reasoning of the OSAS argument.
It goes like this: We know a person is saved forever because they are saved.

yet they , i have seen this, will tell a person that they are saved despite their choice to live in sin and walk away when asked. yes i have heard this from a few people an not online.

i am well aware that the eternal security types wont condone the license to sin and yet some(the ones that are not reformed) will say that God will judge that person and slay them and they will somehow make it to heaven but not have any reward in heaven. im aware of the holes in my position with none osas. yet i dont teach works to be saved. worry that if i sin once its over. its more that we choose to leave God, He makes no one repent or follow Him.

 

[jasonc]

yes they teach backsliding personally i believe a true Child of God will return just like the prodigal son . what most dont understand is Judgment belongs to God through Christ . if we follow the Bible we are watchman and we are to sound the trumpet of warning .if we dont their blood is on us.. i just simply am not into the game can you or can you not.. we can know i had much rather leave this life knowing i was trying to do right with God. than leave knowing i was not

no oasers teach that just that if one stays continually in sin and never repents he will not see heaven. look i know these arguements. im just not gonna change nor debate this. i attend a reformed church, i can post the bible study on tonight that is a video and well the elect. yeah im waiting for that view to come out. the elders know where i am. i am not interested in changing the church doctrine to my liking. i am there to learn and be fed and to feed if called.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

no oasers teach that just that if one stays continually in sin and never repents he will not see heaven. look i know these arguements. im just not gonna change nor debate this. i attend a reformed church, i can post the bible study on tonight that is a video and well the elect. yeah im waiting for that view to come out. the elders know where i am. i am not interested in changing the church doctrine to my liking. i am there to learn and be fed and to feed if called.

I was fortunate enough back in the '70s to attend a NAZARENE (Conditional security) Church in the evenings, because my BAPTIST (Eternal security) Church (which met in a movie theater) didn't have evening service. Fortuitously, BOTH Pastors started a teaching series on "the security of the believer". What was fascinating, was that even though they were diametrically opposed in the subject , they BOTH used many of the same "Proof Texts" (with appropriate spin) to convince their individual congregations that their Denominational Paradigm was accurate. I finally came to the conclusion that: If There's LIVING FAITH (Faith as defined in Heb 11:1 - i.e. a SUBSTANCE, and an EVIDENCE - then "Security" isn't an issue.

The problem comes in IF/when the individual "gets busy" with other stuff, and NEGLECTS their relationship with God, such that their "Living Faith" degenerates into the fading memory of "having HAD a living faith- once".

It's my experience that God DOES send "Wake up calls" - sometimes pretty brutal ones -

 

[Randy]

I was fortunate enough back in the '70s to attend a NAZARENE (Conditional security) Church in the evenings, because my BAPTIST (Eternal security) Church (which met in a movie theater) didn't have evening service. Fortuitously, BOTH Pastors started a teaching series on "the security of the believer". What was fascinating, was that even though they were diametrically opposed in the subject , they BOTH used many of the same "Proof Texts" (with appropriate spin) to convince their individual congregations that their Denominational Paradigm was accurate. I finally came to the conclusion that: If There's LIVING FAITH (Faith as defined in Heb 11:1 - i.e. a SUBSTANCE, and an EVIDENCE - then "Security" isn't an issue.

The problem comes in IF/when the individual "gets busy" with other stuff, and NEGLECTS their relationship with God, such that their "Living Faith" degenerates into the fading memory of "having HAD a living faith- once".

It's my experience that God DOES send "Wake up calls" - sometimes pretty brutal ones -

It seems I remember reading if we become faithless God will remain faithful because He can not disown Himself.

Nevertheless Jesus stated, "remain in me and I will remain in you". That's my position on the matter. But to the one who claims they were born again and leaves the faith to promote another I ask, "how can one have the Spirit of Christ in them and not know Jesus lives?"

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The problem comes in IF/when the individual "gets busy" with other stuff, and NEGLECTS their relationship with God, such that their "Living Faith" degenerates into the fading memory of "having HAD a living faith- once".

I just got done telling Blood Bought 1953 this in a post.
He thinks he's covered in his willful sinning.
Hebrews 10:26-30, Hebrews 3:12-14 tell us that's not true and the dangers of willfully sinning.
His doctrine has to make those passages 'not really' mean what they say.

OSAS has to do this with many passages.
That's what finally convinced me to abandon OSAS altogether.
I got challenged in a discussion by a struggling believer when they said, "then the scriptures don't really mean what they say."
I sympathized with the struggle they were having and what they were saying--they were right.
For all the talk about God wanting them near him he sure has made it hard by making the scriptures not really mean what they say. I call them the 'not really' doctrines of OSAS.
So I decided I will never, ever mislead a person with that junk doctrine again.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I finally came to the conclusion that: If There's LIVING FAITH (Faith as defined in Heb 11:1 - i.e. a SUBSTANCE, and an EVIDENCE - then "Security" isn't an issue.

Correct.
I've spoken at length to believers who think non-OSAS means you don't have security of salvation.
I tell them what the Bible says--as long as you are believing you are indeed very secure in God's salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-2). It's when you stop believing that you put the security of your salvation at risk.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It seems I remember reading if we become faithless God will remain faithful because He can not disown Himself.

Read the passage:

"12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself." - 2 Timothy 2:12-13

Notice that being faithless is not the same as disowning (denying) Christ.
How do we know that?
The outcome of each is different.
So, being faithless has to be distinct and different than disowning him.
Disowning him is what causes Christ to disown you, not simply being unfaithful.

Being faithless to Christ while still very much clinging to his Sacrifice in faith (cheating on your taxes out of fear, etc.) will not cause Christ to disown you. He will remain faithful to you.
But if you disown him, he will disown you.

We can see that disowning him causes you to not be a part of him anymore because as the passage says he can not disown himself. The person who disowns Christ is no longer a part of Christ that Christ should have some kind of obligation to not disown them. But if the believer is faithless, as the result of ignorance, fear, weakness, or stupidity, He remains faithful to his child.

As long as you continue to trust in the forgiveness of sin through Christ, and do not treat that forgiveness with contempt, Christ will in no way disown you but will be faithful through every struggle, every trial, every sin you go through. Amen, amen, and amen.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But to the one who claims they were born again and leaves the faith to promote another I ask, "how can one have the Spirit of Christ in them and not know Jesus lives?"

Ask the saved Galatians.
The letter to them tells us they were genuinely born-again, Spirit-filled.
Yet they abandoned justification in Christ and went back to justification through the law.
Calvinist OSAS says genuine believers will never do that, or else they were never genuine believers to begin with.
The Galatians have a different theology about that.
Sorry, Calvin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nevertheless Jesus stated, "remain in me and I will remain in you".

Yep.
Keep believing in him and he will remain in you.
It's conditional.
It's just not conditional on 'works'.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You do in fact know you are saved in non-OSAS.
You can't see that because you instantly hear 'saved' as 'always saved' in your mind.

It's the famous circular reasoning of the OSAS argument.
It goes like this: We know a person is saved forever because they are saved.

Do you know that King David is saved?
How do you know that?
Is it because you are saved and the Holy Spirit reveals these things to you?

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

I tell them what the Bible says--

Just like me—- You Tell People what you “ think” the Bible says...The Bible is a very dangerous Book.....it can be made to say Anything.....you could be mistaken in everything you Think and Everything you say.....just like me! A little “ humility” May be in order......I ask The Holy Spirit to guide me as I try to “ Rightly Divide” the Word....An on-looking World needs to ask for Help from the Holy Spirit also to so that they be guided to the Truth....

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

I just got done telling Blood Bought 1953 this in a post.
He thinks he's covered in his willful sinning.
Hebrews 10:26-30, Hebrews 3:12-14 tell us that's not true and the dangers of willfully sinning.
His doctrine has to make those passages 'not really' mean what they say.

OSAS has to do this with many passages.
That's what finally convinced me to abandon OSAS altogether.
I got challenged in a discussion by a struggling believer when they said, "then the scriptures don't really mean what they say."
I sympathized with the struggle they were having and what they were saying--they were right.
For all the talk about God wanting them near him he sure has made it hard by making the scriptures not really mean what they say. I call them the 'not really' doctrines of OSAS.
So I decided I will never, ever mislead a person with that junk doctrine again.

Once again, another poorly taught, Confused person lets a misunderstanding that can be cleared up in 10 minutes of “ rightful dividing” instead lead him to let the Entire Bible revolve upon this misunderstanding ...
It is my UTMOST PRAYER that Newbies and older Believers That are not “ Stiff- Necked” about these important , often times “ Scary” verses Found In Hebrews will at least LOOK AT other “ takes” on these verses......discover, IN CONTEXT , what the Author Of Hebrews is Saying ....Please Google Andrew Farley or Renee Roland and sleep better when you know the Truth Of The Hebrews Message.....God Bless....

 

[Link1983]

Once again, another poorly taught, Confused person lets a misunderstanding that can be cleared up in 10 minutes of “ rightful dividing” instead lead him to let the Entire Bible revolve upon this misunderstanding ...
It is my UTMOST PRAYER that Newbies and older Believers That are not “ Stiff- Necked” about these important , often times “ Scary” verses Found In Hebrews will at least LOOK AT other “ takes” on these verses......discover, IN CONTEXT , what the Author Of Hebrews is Saying ....Please Google Andrew Farley or Renee Roland and sleep better when you know the Truth Of The Hebrews Message.....God Bless....

Our conscious speaks.. everyone really knows... Especially the wilfully..

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I tell them what the Bible says--

Just like me—- You Tell People what you “ think” the Bible says...The Bible is a very dangerous Book.....it can be made to say Anything.....you could be mistaken in everything you Think and Everything you say.....just like me! A little “ humility” May be in order......I ask The Holy Spirit to guide me as I try to “ Rightly Divide” the Word....An on-looking World needs to ask for Help from the Holy Spirit also to so that they be guided to the Truth....

But if you're not obeying the Bible from a pure heart in faith you will only hear what you want to hear out of the Bible.

‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When any of the Israelites set up idols in their hearts and put a wicked stumbling block before their faces and then go to a prophet, I the Lord will answer them myself in keeping with their great idolatry. - Ezekiel 14:4

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. - 2 Timothy 4:3

These scriptures are presently being fulfilled in the Freegrace movement in the church.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Once again, another poorly taught, Confused person lets a misunderstanding that can be cleared up in 10 minutes of “ rightful dividing” instead lead him to let the Entire Bible revolve upon this misunderstanding ...
It is my UTMOST PRAYER that Newbies and older Believers That are not “ Stiff- Necked” about these important , often times “ Scary” verses Found In Hebrews will at least LOOK AT other “ takes” on these verses......discover, IN CONTEXT , what the Author Of Hebrews is Saying ....Please Google Andrew Farley or Renee Roland and sleep better when you know the Truth Of The Hebrews Message.....God Bless....

Not willfully sinning is unrighteous, and willfully sinning is righteous.
The church has fallen a loooong way downward.

Blood Bought 1953 , why are you purposely sinning??????

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

But if you're not obeying the Bible from a pure heart in faith you will only hear what you want to hear out of the Bible.

‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When any of the Israelites set up idols in their hearts and put a wicked stumbling block before their faces and then go to a prophet, I the Lord will answer them myself in keeping with their great idolatry. - Ezekiel 14:4

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. - 2 Timothy 4:3

These scriptures are presently being fulfilled in the Freegrace movement in the church.

Once again, that would be your opinion.....it is my opinion that “ itching ears” might belong to the Natural Man who attends Church to be assured that even though Jesus might Save, our Performance is also necessary and by being “ good little boys and girls”, “ keeping the Commandments” ( never mind our “thought lives” or “ Sins Of Omission” ) or by making certain our Repentance Ledgers are Spotless on the day that we die.Essentially, it is the same old “Jesus Saves— BUT !” School Of Thinking.Its as old as Cain—-God says “ this way”— But I will do it “ my way”.......
God’s Way is “ NOTHING But The Blood Of Jesus”.....Those with “Itchy Ears” Want their Self-Righteous Egos stroked.....Remember Satan in the Garden? “ Yea, hath God REALLY said?” God doesn’t really mean what He says....Jesus kinda needs a “ Co- Savior”...... and YOU are doing a GREAT Job!
These are the Lost Souls That will stand before God On Judgement Day and proclaim, Without any Acknowledgement of what Jesus did FOR them, “ Didn’t we do “ this “ FOR you and didn’t we do “ that” for you ? Now give me what I am due!” They will hear , “ depart from me— I never knew you.”
Remember in Romans where Paul said he would go to Hell for his “ self-Righteous” Jewish Brothers?The One’s trying to “ establish their own righteousness”. Itchy Ears are soothed by a lulling voice that says, “Relax,Jesus Blood Plus your Performance is what Saves—- and YOU are doing just fine!”