Understanding apocalyptic language...

[Stormcrow]

Let's try understanding Matthew 24 again from a different course and heading: understanding apocalyptic language.

When Jesus says this:

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Matthew 24:29 (NASB)

He is using the same language the Holy Spirit-inspired prophets of the Old Testament used to describe the coming judgment of God upon a nation and its people. Here are some examples:

When the prophet Isaiah prophesied against Babylon and its coming destruction at the hands of the Medes:

The oracle concerning Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light. Isaiah 13:1,9-10 (NASB)

This prophecy was fulfilled in the events recorded in Daniel 5, when the Medes invaded Babylon:

That same night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was slain. So Darius the Mede received the kingdom at about the age of sixty-two. Daniel 5:30-31 (NASB)

Or when the prophet Ezekiel prophesied of the coming defeat of Egypt at the hands of Babylon:

In the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, on the first of the month, the word of the LORD came to me saying, "Son of man, take up a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt... Ezekiel 32:1-2 (NASB)

"And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light. "All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land," Declares the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 32:7-8 (NASB)

This prophecy was fulfilled in the events of Jeremiah 46:2, 607-606 BC:

To Egypt, concerning the army of Pharaoh Neco king of Egypt, which was by the Euphrates River at Carchemish, which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon defeated in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah: Jeremiah 46:2 (NASB)

The defeat of Neco's armies caused Egypt's holdings over large tracts of Syria, Phoenicia, and Judea to fall to Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon, paving the way for the events of 587 BC, as prophesied by the prophet Joel, concerning the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of Babylon:

Blow a trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of the LORD is coming; Surely it is near, A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness. As the dawn is spread over the mountains, So there is a great and mighty people; There has never been anything like it, Nor will there be again after it To the years of many generations.

Before them the earth quakes, The heavens tremble, The sun and the moon grow dark And the stars lose their brightness. Joel 2:1-2,10 (NASB)

This prophecy was fulfilled in the events recorded in the book of II Chronicles, chapter 36 (among others):

Zedekiah was twenty-one years old when he became king, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. He did evil in the sight of the LORD his God; he did not humble himself before Jeremiah the prophet who spoke for the LORD.

He also rebelled against King Nebuchadnezzar who had made him swear allegiance by God. But he stiffened his neck and hardened his heart against turning to the LORD God of Israel.

Furthermore, all the officials of the priests and the people were very unfaithful following all the abominations of the nations; and they defiled the house of the LORD which He had sanctified in Jerusalem.

The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.

Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand.

All the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon.

Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles. Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths.

All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete. 2 Chronicles 36:11-21 (NASB)

The language Christ used in Matthew 24:29 (and the other synoptic gospels) is symbolic language intended to convey the horror of falling under God's judgment!

When He uses it in Matthew 24, He is telling His disciples that the same fate that befell Babylon, Egypt, and Jerusalem, in 587 BC, is the same fate that will befall Jerusalem again before their generation passes.

Matthew 24:29 was fulfilled in the events of 70 AD by the legions of Rome under the Roman general Titus, son of Emperor Vespasian.

 

[Zinc]

When He uses it in Matthew 24, He is telling His disciples that the same fate that befell Babylon, Egypt, and Jerusalem, in 587 BC, is the same fate that will befall Jerusalem again before their generation passes.

But the material most clearly connected to the "son of man coming", "with angels", doesn't speak of judgement on a city. It speaks of a judgment of persons. Persons would be rewarded or punished. That is completely different from a city being destroyed by an army.

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." (Matthew 16:27)


[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. (Matt. 13)


[27] Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
[28] And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
[29] And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. (Matt. 19)



[31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world... (Matt. 25)


As we see, the material just doesn't fit with a "judgement on Jerusalem".

(No doubt the destruction of Jerusalem is indeed mentioned elsewhere in the Olivet Discourse, which even futurists will accept.)

 

[Stormcrow]

The language of Christ couldn't be clearer. As most churches don't teach the Old Testament, and most Christians don't venture into it except to pull a verse or two out of context (II Chronicles 7:14, Daniel 9:27 anyone?), it should come as no surprise that most have never made or understood the connection between the apocalyptic language of Christ and the apocalyptic language of the O.T. prophets.

Jesus quoted them often, especially when addressing His enemies, the chief priests, scribes, and Pharisees.

If people are interested, they can find this same idea conveyed in Matthew 21:33-46, wherein He quotes from Isaiah 5:1-7.

This really isn't hard to understand if people are willing to delve into the O.T. and leave their preconceived notions aside.

 

[zeke]

As most churches don't teach the Old Testament, and most Christians don't venture into it except to pull a verse or two out of context…

This is just your same old hasty generalization fallacy, my friend. What evidence to you offer to support the notion that “most churches don't teach the Old Testament†or the even sillier notion that “most Christians†pull a verse or two out of context?

This really isn't hard to understand if people are willing to delve into the O.T. and leave their preconceived notions aside.

LOL - does that include your own "preconceived notions" based on your peculiar dogma that remains in opposition to God's word?

 

[Stormcrow]

The topic is "Understanding apocalyptic language" and the verse highlighted for discussion in the O.P. is Matthew 24:29.

Discussion welcome. Personal attacks not.

 

[Pizzaguy]

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Matthew 24:29 (NASB)

Well, IF the sun is darkened, then the moon won't have any light to give. Sounds simple, God is gonna, somehow, darken the sun. I am unsure HOW it is that, given this fact, we won't freeze to death - I guess if He re-lights the sun in a few minutes, we'll be ok.

And then, the stars will fall from the sky. Sounds simple, God is gonna, somehow, make them all fall... Uh, what? We know that the stars aren't simply attached to some crystal sphere above the earth. They are, in fact, in orbits around the center of our galaxy or other galaxies.

So how can they "fall"? The stars are found in every direction from earth - "fall" in what direction? Where will they go? And will they be restored later to their positions?

Kinda sounds like "if your eye offends you, pluck it out..." ;) He is making a point, but by just trying to read the LITERAL words, we miss that point.

Biblical literalism is a terrible trap. How 'bout we read the Bible with the intent that we will get the MESSAGE being conveyed, not the literal meaning of every word?

Who here does not speak in metaphors or exaggerations? How often did Jesus speak in parables?

Keep typing, Stormcrow.

 

[Stormcrow]

Well, IF the sun is darkened, then the moon won't have any light to give. Sounds simple, God is gonna, somehow, darken the sun. I am unsure HOW it is that, given this fact, we won't freeze to death - I guess if He re-lights the sun in a few minutes, we'll be ok.

And then, the stars will fall from the sky. Sounds simple, God is gonna, somehow, make them all fall... Uh, what? We know that the stars aren't simply attached to some crystal sphere above the earth. They are, in fact, in orbits around the center of our galaxy or other galaxies.

So how can they "fall"? The stars are found in every direction from earth - "fall" in what direction? Where will they go? And will they be restored later to their positions?

Kinda sounds like "if your eye offends you, pluck it out..." ;) He is making a point, but by just trying to read the LITERAL words, we miss that point.

Biblical literalism is a terrible trap. How 'bout we read the Bible with the intent that we will get the MESSAGE being conveyed, not the literal meaning of every word?

Who here does not speak in metaphors or exaggerations? How often did Jesus speak in parables?

Keep typing, Stormcrow.

Thank you, Pizzaguy. Will try!

The point I hope that comes across in the O.P. is that if Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29 are to be taken literally, why not the words in Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Joel (among others?)

How often did God snuff out the sun? How often did He throw a blanket (wool or linen?) over the moon? And if the stars "fell from the sky" when Egypt and Judea fell to Babylon, why were they still there when Babylon fell to the Medes???

And I agree: Biblical literalism is a terrible trap. Fortunately, we have the O.T. that can help us understand and interpret the apocalyptic language of the New.

 

[Zinc]

The language of Christ couldn't be clearer.

(a) It clearly speaks of a different kind of judgement. The material most clearly connected speaks of persons being rewarded or punished. It doesn't speak of a city being destroyed by an army.
(b) The Christian religion has always understood it as a future "2nd coming" going back to the church fathers.

[edited by staff]

 

[Zinc]

(b) The Christian religion has always understood it as a future "2nd coming" going back to the church fathers.

Which of course means they understood it as a judgement of persons, not judgement on a city.

 

[Zinc]

A version of the OD is found in the "apocalypse of peter". Again, it speaks of a judgement of persons.


THE ETHIOPIC TEXT

First published by the Abbe Sylvain Grebaut in Revue de l'Orient Chretien, 1910: a fresh translation from his Ethiopic text by H. Duensing appeared in Zeitschr. f. ntl. Wiss., 1913.

The Second Coming of Christ and Resurrection of the Dead (which Christ revealed unto Peter) who died because of their sins, for that they kept not the commandment of God their creator.

And he (Peter) pondered thereon, that he might perceive the mystery of the Son of God, the merciful and lover of mercy.

And when the Lord was seated upon the Mount of Olives, his disciples came unto him.

And we besought and entreated him severally and prayed him, saying unto him: Declare unto us what are the signs of thy coming and of the end of the world, that we may perceive and mark the time of thy coming and instruct them that come after us, unto whom we preach the word of thy gospel, and whom we set over (in) thy church, that they when they hear it may take heed to themselves and mark the time of thy coming.

And our Lord answered us, saying: Take heed that no man deceive you, and that ye be not doubters and serve other gods. Many shall come in my name, saying: I am the Christ. Believe them not, neither draw near unto them. For the coming of the Son of God shall not be plain (i.e. foreseen); but as the lightning that shineth from the east unto the west, so will I come upon the clouds of heaven with a great host in my majesty; with my cross going before my face will I come in my majesty, shining sevenfold more than the sun will I come in my majesty with all my saints, mine angels (mine holy angels). And my Father shall set a crown upon mine head, that I may judge the quick and the dead and recompense every man according to his works.

http://www.gnosis.org/library/apocpeter.htm

 

[Stormcrow]

Which of course means they understood it as a judgement of persons, not judgement on a city.

A distinction without a difference. God didn't judge vacant buildings or empty streets. Christ's words - as those of the prophets God sent - are quite clear as to whom God's judgment was directed. You are simply obfuscating.

 

[Stormcrow]

With the background of Christ's words to His disciples from Matthew 24 in mind, look now at what John writes in Revelation 6:

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. Revelation 6:12-13 (NASB)

John was one of the four disciples Christ addressed on the Mount of Olives in what we call the "Olivet Discourse":

As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately, Mark 13:3 (NASB)

The language John uses in this passage from Revelation 6 is the same language Christ quoted from the prophets of the Old Testament. Furthermore, this passage from Revelation 6 also tells us what the apocalyptic language here, in Matthew 24 and in the Old Testament, means:

and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" Revelation 6:16-17 (NASB)

Like the apocalyptic language of the OT and the Olivet Discourse, this passage refers to God's wrath being poured out on a nation and its people.

It is a direct parallel of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 which all speak of the judgment of God upon Jerusalem.

What's of further interest to note is that Peter uses similar language in his second epistle. Compare the language of Revelation 6 here:

"The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places." Revelation 6:14 (NASB)

to this:

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 2 Peter 3:10-12 (NASB)

Again, the language of destruction is tied to the "day of God." This language is hyperbole: exaggeration to make a point about the horror of falling under the wrath of God. Hebrews confirms this point:

For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:30-31 (NASB)

Therefore, given that John was one of the disciples in the presence of Christ for the Olivet Discourse; given that the apocalyptic language of Revelation 6:12-17 is a direct parallel to the apocalyptic language of the Olivet Discourse, and given that Christ prophesied of the judgment of Jerusalem in the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:15-41, Mark 13:14-31, Luke 13:17:22-37, 19:41-44, 21:20-33), it stands to reason that Revelation 6 is also describing the impending destruction of Jerusalem, using apocalyptic language, which happened on the 9th of Av, 70 AD.

 

[Zinc]

A distinction without a difference. God didn't judge vacant buildings or empty streets.

There is a big difference actually. A judgement of persons including people being rewarded (i.e. as distinct from being punished) is something completely different from judgement on a city by way of an army.

Christ's words - as those of the prophets God sent - are quite clear as to whom God's judgment was directed. You are simply obfuscating.

I have the clear teaching of the Bible on my side. I have the church fathers on my side.

If your position were so obviously correct, why would it need hundreds and hundreds of years before anyone invented it?

[Edited by staff]

 

[Stormcrow]

There is a big difference actually. A judgement of persons including people being rewarded (i.e. as distinct from being punished) is something completely different from judgement on a city by way of an army.

LOL! OK. Whatever you say. Ignore the obvious meaning of every Old Testament prophet when they say things like, "Woe to Babylon! Woe to Edom! Woe to Egypt! Woe to Jerusalem!"

Even Jesus said this:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! "Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'" Luke 13:34-35 (NASB)

He prophesied against a city full of people that was going to be destroyed!

You can spin that any way you want, but it doesn't change the clear language of every single prophet - including Christ - that prophesied of God's impending judgment against a city, nation, and a people!

I have the clear teaching of the Bible on my side. I have the church fathers on my side.

If your position were so obviously correct, why would it need hundreds and hundreds of years before anyone invented it?

The church fathers? Ever read Eusebius, for example?

The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella.

Here, those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles, finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers from the earth.

But the number of calamities which then overwhelmed the whole nation; the extreme misery to which particularly the inhabitants of Judea were reduced, the vast numbers of men, with women and children that fell by the sword and famine, and innumerable other forms of death; the numerous and great cities of Judea that were besieged, as also the great and incredible distresses that those experienced who took refuge at Jerusalem, as to a place of perfect security; these facts, as well as the whole tenor of the war, and each particular of its progress, when finally, the abomination of desolation, according to the prophetic declaration, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, but which now was approaching its total down-fall and final destruction by fire; all this, I say, any one that wishes may see accurately stated in the history written by Josephus.

It may, however, be necessary to state, in the very words of this writer, how about three hundred thousand that flocked from all parts of Judea at the time of the passover, were shut up in Jerusalem as in a prison. For it was indeed just, that in those very days in which they had inflicted sufferings upon the Saviour and benefactor of all men, the Christ of God, destruction should overtake them, thus shut up as in a prison, as an exhibition of the divine justice.

Passing by, then, the particular calamities which befell them, such as they suffered from the sword, and other means employed against them, I may deem it sufficient only to subjoin the calamities they endured from the famine. So that they who peruse the present history, may know in some measure, that the divine vengeance did not long delay to visit them for their iniquity against the Christ of God.

Eusebius Pamphilus, The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus, WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 85-87.
[Edited by staff]

 

[Drew]

An important topic. As some will know, I am with Stormcrow on this - there is a wealth of evidence to support the view that such "end of the world" language is used by Bible authors to denote a significant change in the socio-political order, or some other significant "non end of the world" event.

I agree with SC about ignorance of the Old Testament - there are a number of examples in the OT where we know that such language is used in this high metaphorical way.

Not only this, there is some extra-Biblical evidence of this mode of expression being quite common among the Jews of Jesus' time (and earlier).

 

[zeke]

Therefore, given that John was one of the disciples in the presence of Christ for the Olivet Discourse; given that the apocalyptic language of Revelation 6:12-17 is a direct parallel to the apocalyptic language of the Olivet Discourse, and given that Christ prophesied of the judgment of Jerusalem in the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:15-41, Mark 13:14-31, Luke 13:17:22-37, 19:41-44, 21:20-33), it stands to reason that Revelation 6 is also describing the impending destruction of Jerusalem, which happened on the 9th of Av, 70 AD.

In the “Olivet Discourse” (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21), Jesus was asked three separate questions. Stormcrow’s confusion is based on his misunderstanding of those questions.

1. When will these things be? (Matt, Luke, Mark)
2. What will be the sign these things are about to take place? (Luke, Mark)
3. What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? (Matthew)
​

The first two questions are related to destruction of the temple (70AD) and the end of the Mosaic system. The third question is related to the yet future 'Christ's coming and of the end of the age', i.e., the end of the world and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The destruction of the temple in 70 AD is a past event - the second coming of Christ has not taken place yet. We still await “the last trump” when we “shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” – when those who are dead in Christ “shall be raised incorruptible”.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.*
(1Co 15:51-52 KJV)​

The revisionism of Preterism has always been the error it remains today.

 

[Stormcrow]

There is a prophetic thread that runs through the use of apocalyptic language that weaves its way through history, culminating in the "end of the age" for the Jewish people and the Temple-based religion, which set them apart from every other nation.

The ultimate completion of the Law of Moses is seen in the fulfillment of Christ's prophesy against the city (and people) over which He desired to spread His wings. Even Moses prophesied against the people when he wrote this:

"For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands." Deuteronomy 31:29 (NASB)

"They have acted corruptly toward Him, They are not His children, because of their defect; But are a perverse and crooked generation. Deuteronomy 32:5 (NASB)

(As an aside, Peter and Paul use this same language here:

And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" Acts 2:40 (NASB)

and here:

Do all things without grumbling or disputing; so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, Philippians 2:14-15 (NASB))

Moses wrote the penalties for disobedience to the covenant in both Deut. 28 and Leviticus 26. Here are those penalties - in part - for disobedience in Leviticus 26:14-39:

'And if by these things you are not turned to Me, but act with hostility against Me, then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins. ~'I will also bring upon you a sword which will execute vengeance for the covenant; and when you gather together into your cities, I will send pestilence among you, so that you shall be delivered into enemy hands. ~'When I break your staff of bread, ten women will bake your bread in one oven, and they will bring back your bread in rationed amounts, so that you will eat and not be satisfied.

'Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me, then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins. ~'Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat. ~'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you. ~'I will lay waste your cities as well and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas.

~'I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled over it. ~'You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste. Leviticus 26:23-33 (NASB)

Luke summarizes the impending destruction of Jerusalem for "that generation" this way:

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:20-22 (NASB)

Those who would complicate this are simply trying to mislead you.

 

[Stormcrow]

The confusion expressed by the critics of my work in this thread lies in the fact that they misunderstand what the disciples meant by those 3 questions in Matthew, particularly in reference to their question about the "end of the age."

Here's an example of how Jesus used the term:

Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; Luke 20:34-35 (NASB)

And what was "that age and the resurrection from the dead" to which Jesus was referring? Again, the answer is in the Old Testament prophets and is related directly to Israel!

"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time [Matthew 24:21]; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

"But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase." Daniel 12:1-2,4 (NASB)

The "end of time" in Daniel 12:4 is linked directly to the "time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time" in verses 1 and 2!

It's the same language Christ used - as noted in the link above - here!

"For then [the end of time; the end of the age] there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Matthew 24:21 (NASB)

John alludes to this passage from Daniel in Revelation 22, but with a twist!

And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Revelation 22:10,12-13 (NASB)

The time of the end of what was near??? The time of the end of Israel's unique relationship with God by way of the Law of Moses and - by extension - the end of the Law and their Temple-centric religion!

Daniel was looking at the future "end" of the Old Covenant through one end of the telescope. John saw it through the other. They were both writing about the same "end of the age" that Christ told His disciples would come as the result of His judgment upon Jerusalem!

And one more thing: Daniel wasn't writing to, for, or about Gentiles when he penned these words:

"...at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake..."

The promise of a physical resurrection was given to the children of Israel. It was not given to Gentiles. Those who believe in Christ live by the words He gave Martha at the tomb of Lazarus:

Jesus *said to her, "Your brother will rise again." Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" She *said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." John 11:23-27 (NASB)

Those who have believed in Him for the past 2,000 years already have eternal life: they have already been "raised up with Him" as Paul writes. But the physical resurrection - which was fulfilled in part after Christ rose [Matthew 27:52-53] was a promise made to "Daniel's people."

Most "evangellically-trained" people won't accept this, but there is no other view that sees the entirety of these prophecies in their full and proper context.
​

 

[zeke]

Those who would complicate this are simply trying to mislead you.

The “Times of the Gentiles†is yet to be be fulfilled? The Secord Coming of Christ has not taken place yet. The Last Trump is yet to sound. The Dead in Christ coming forth from the grave at the end of time is yet future. These truths are undeniable. Preterists who fail to understand these truths (Stormcrow) have been mislead by those blind teachers who lead the blind. The Bible does not teach the error of preterism - and never has.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(1Th 4:15-17 KJV) ​

 

[Drew]

I think SC is bang-on correct in much of his analysis - there is loads of Biblical evidence to suggest that the "futurist" position is basically incorrect.

However, I think the "correct" view is "partial preterism", if I can use that term.

I agree with SC that many OT prophecies, that "futurists" believe are yet to fufilled, were, in fact, fulfilled 2000 years ago.

But, unlike SC (apparently - SC, correct me if I misrepresent you), I believe Jesus will come again a second time and that some prophecies remain unfulfilled at this present time.