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Well, yes it would, if that was written in the text .. but the text doesn't say that the garments of skin were made from animals, and it doesn't say that they were clothes for covering sin.

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Where do you suppose these skins came from if not from an animal in order for God to cover their shame, which also means to be covered in God's righteousness as the blood being the type and shadow of Christ throughout the OT, Job 29:14; Zechariah, 3:4; Rev 19:8.
 
Well I tried to write the blog article and I didn't get into discussing the Hebrew before I came to the end of the flow, so I'll just put something together here, for the sake of the discussion.

When you look at the Hebrew language of Genesis 4:4, it has a lot less words than the English translation does - and that is because we add grammar, whereas in the Hebrew it is all about drawing a picture in the mind to get the point across - so unlike English where we shape grammar for the purpose of tone in delivery, grammar is more direct and only for the actual function of the speech.

Grammar is only added in Hebrew for the purpose of tying words together. So if you look at the words by themselves to begin with, you see only this:

Abel brought also own firstborn flock fat. Admired Jehovah upon Abel.

Now, there is grammar in the text that helps us to understand the relationship of those words:

And Abel brought also own from the firstborn of the flocks and from the fat. And admired Jehovah upon Abel.

Now one more step fixes grammar for us in English:

And Abel also brought from the firstborn of his own flocks and from the fat. And Jehovah admired Abel.

.. how does this compare to the popular translations?

And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: (KJV)

Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering; (NASB)

Abel also brought some choice parts of the firstborn animals from his flock. The LORD approved of Abel and his offering, (God's Word)

and Abel, he hath brought, he also, from the female firstlings of his flock, even from their fat ones; and Jehovah looketh unto Abel and unto his present, (YLT)

.. alright? So it doesn't look much different to begin with, but we can see that there is quite some variation in the expression "Jehovah admired/looketh unto/approved of/had respect unto/had regard for - so it goes to show that it isn't so easy to translate from Hebrew into English, because every word in the Hebrew contains so much meaning that it literally stretches out to encompass the meaning of a number of words from the English.

So if we go another step and look at the various words that can be used to translate the word, this is what we get:
  • And
  • Abel
  • brought/carried/came with/entered
  • also/even/indeed/yea/moreover/
  • his
  • the
  • birthright/firstborn/firstfruits
  • flock/sheep & goats/small cattle
  • and
  • fat/choice parts
  • and
  • looked at/regarded/gazed/respected
  • Jehovah
  • upon
  • Abel
.. and notice that I used the word "admire" because the Strong's says "to gaze" is it's first definition, and the word "admire" is a summary of one who is gazing with respect/regard/favour.

Now there is just one word I want to focus on here, it is the "fat", and the reason is that this word "fat" is quite a broad word in the Hebrew, whereas in the English, we tend to use it rather more narrowly (though, not necessarily).

Take a look at the Strong's definition for this word "Cheleb". It is formed of the root letters Chet, Lamed and Beyt. The presentation of the word varies through the scriptures according to it's grammatical function, but there is a very close relationship with the word "Chalab", that is said to be "milk", and the difference between these two words is the vowels between the letters (in Hebrew, every letter is a consonant). This is where it gets interesting.

The vowel pointing system wasn't developed until around 600 years after Christ, and it was developed by Jewish scribes who were trying to preserve the knowledge of the nuances of the language (as this example). So consider for a moment, that if anyone in the year 500 was reading Genesis 4:4, and it had no vowel pointings, how would they know whether it is chebed or chabad? The only way is through oral tradition, and even that has it's problems. It only takes one person with the wrong idea to start a whole movement, doesn't it?

So at that point I looked at the Septuagint. Now the story of the Septuagint is that the Hebrew scriptures of the Old Testament were translated into Greek language around 200 years BC. So that gives us an opportunity to look into what they were reading in those days where it has been preserved through the Greek language - and that actually brings quite a big difference altogether:

And when in process of time Cain brought of the fruits of the earth a sacrifice to the Lord, 4 and Abel also brought, he indeed of the firstlings of his flock even some of the fattest of them, God looked upon Abel and on his gifts; (Genesis 4:3-4, Thompson from the Septuagint).

And it was so after some time that Cain brought of the fruits of the earth a sacrifice to the Lord. 4 And Abel also brought of the first born of his sheep and of his fatlings, and God looked upon Abel and his gifts, (Genesis 4:3-4, Brenton from the Septuagint, also Genesis 4:3-4, LXX from the Septuagint).

Look at how much different this is! .. can you see a problem here?

In all of the official English translations, that are drawn from the Hebrew scriptures that have had vowel pointings added by Jewish clerics some 600 years AD, they are saying that Abel brought fat that belonged to the flocks, whereas the Septuagint that was translated by scribes before Christ are all saying that Abel brought fatlings in addition to the firstborns.

So now that I have this cause to suspect that maybe the Hebrew is being misread on account of the vowels being invalid, I have to look closer at the Hebrew to see if it is supported to read it that way. Look what I have found:

Psalms 17:10 contains the exact same vowel pointings for the root word as Genesis 4:4 does: Tzeire on the Chet and Sh'va on the Lamed. The vowel on the Beyt is of no consequence for this matter because the syllable ends there.

So the expression in Psalms 17:10 lines up pretty well exactly with what the Septuagint says in Genesis 4:4

"Their fat hearts they have closed up with their mouths they speak proudly". (INT)

They are inclosed in their own fat: with their mouth they speak proudly. (KJV)

They have closed their unfeeling heart, With their mouth they speak proudly. (NASB)

Their gross heart they have shut tight, With their mouth they speak proudly. (JPS Tanakh 1917)

Their fat they have closed up, Their mouths have spoken with pride: (YLT)

See this theme "their heart is fat", it shows that their heart has grown excess, and the JPS uses the word "gross".

What I find therefore, is that the meaning of the word in Psalms 17:10, being the same word in Genesis 4:4, better supports the view that the Septuagint has. So if I was to adjust my own translation one more time it would look like this:

And Abel also brought from the firstborn of his own flocks and from the fattest. And Jehovah admired Abel.

Now, considering that it doesn't say that Abel slaughtered them, it only says that he brought them as a gift to Adonai, I wonder if you have the same picture in mind of what it means that Adonai looked favourably upon Abel, and why. I see the same God who was with Adam in the garden while He was bringing all the beasts for him to name, to see if they would be a suitable helper.

God really is beautiful. He is holy.

I've always understood the word "fat" meant the best of the first of the flock, but yet where do we see if this is a sin offering, as no altar was mentioned, or was this an offering of thanksgiving unto the Lord. Usually throughout the OT it was the head of the house who would build an altar and make a blood sacrifice using a sheep, goat or a bull for their family as that would have been Adam, not Cain or Abel's place to do so since they were still living with their parents.

I can only assume that Abel giving the best, probably a lamb as cattle did not need a shepherd, and gave that to Adam to make a blood sacrifice for their sin. I can only assume this offering could have been a sin offering since God did speak verbally with Cain and Abel. I would think Adam and Eve told them of the coats of skin as even they would have made coats of skin as they grew which also means that of God covering our shame/sin with His righteousness.
 
Not sure what you mean by, The angel hung on the cross when the snakes attacked another shadow from the Light. Could you explain this?

when the Israelites were attacked by snakes the angel, the word can be translated as snake or bright and shining one which is used for angels who are ministers of fire. The Lord would not compromise one of His shadows by assuming the form of the serpent for the Israelites to look at in faith to be saved. This was The Angel of the Lord, Jesus Christ in shadow form. The cross he hung on was t shaped usually would carry on it the tribal flags.
 
this is great, brothers, and sisters, dwelling in unity and seeking to understand the one Subject, Jesus Christ and Christ crucified, to bring edification to each other and praise and glory to the Lord God Almighty. Way to go folks.
 
when the Israelites were attacked by snakes the angel, the word can be translated as snake or bright and shining one which is used for angels who are ministers of fire. The Lord would not compromise one of His shadows by assuming the form of the serpent for the Israelites to look at in faith to be saved. This was The Angel of the Lord, Jesus Christ in shadow form. The cross he hung on was t shaped usually would carry on it the tribal flags.

I see now what you are talking about when I put Numbers 21:4-9; 2 Kings 18:1-4; John 3:14, 15; Romans 8:1-8 all together as what the brass serpent represented as being that of Christ. In the days of Hezekiah the Israelites did not understand the representation of the brass serpent and ended up giving it a derogatory name calling it Nehushtan and with a disrespectful attitude they burned incense unto it and this is why Hezekiah broke it into pieces.

Also by reading Hebrews 1:7 I understand what you meant by the angels being ministers of fire as being the serpents in Numbers 21:6. This is why we ask others to give scripture for those things they speak of so we can have a better understanding of what they are talking about.
 
I see now what you are talking about when I put Numbers 21:4-9; 2 Kings 18:1-4; John 3:14, 15; Romans 8:1-8 all together as what the brass serpent represented as being that of Christ. In the days of Hezekiah the Israelites did not understand the representation of the brass serpent and ended up giving it a derogatory name calling it Nehushtan and with a disrespectful attitude they burned incense unto it and this is why Hezekiah broke it into pieces.

Also by reading Hebrews 1:7 I understand what you meant by the angels being ministers of fire as being the serpents in Numbers 21:6. This is why we ask others to give scripture for those things they speak of so we can have a better understanding of what they are talking about.
Wise council, thanks for your support.
 
I've always understood the word "fat" meant the best of the first of the flock
The fat represents the abundance from the land. You'll never see fat on an animal that was starved.

This, we give out of the abundance which God provides.

I'll bet you cut the fat off your steak and throw it away, don't you!
 
can only assume that Abel giving the best, probably a lamb as cattle did not need a shepherd, and gave that to Adam to make a blood sacrifice for their sin. I can only assume this offering could have been a sin offering since God did speak verbally with Cain and Abel. I would think Adam and Eve told them of the coats of skin as even they would have made coats of skin as they grew which also means that of God covering our shame/sin with His righteousness.
Most will reject what i say here.
These stories have been passed down since before the time of Moses and are written in portions of the Talmud.
Cannon simply means that which is used to measure. It is the lense in which we view all things.
This does not discredit all of the Jewish stories ( though some are clearly well outside of cannon and should be rejected and are by Orthodox Jews) and the Jews have many stories on what your assuming. This is one reason i purchased my Ramban commentary as it speaks to your assumptions, and more.
 
Hi stovebolts, the thing that worries me is the person of Maimonides changed the wording in The Shema, Deu. 6:4, from Echad which means a Unity that is a Plural such as a Triune God. The word Yachid which means a unity that is singular. If this is true is his writings or those who followed on his teachings reliable? Not being really knowledgeable I am hesitant. What can you tell me, please? Is it also true he denies Christ has come which would be a warning that his was not the spirit of God speaking through him.
 
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Good morning!
As a note, Strongs isn't the best place to always look. It's more of a list of words that the Hebrew was translated in the Bible than anything else.
Ancient Hebrew is tough, really tough and to this day, there are words in Job that even the best cannot be 100% sure of.

Can you offer a better resource? I would find that useful.

I spend a fair amount of time on chabad.org and here is how they translate the verse which is word for word for part a of your translation. So that should not be in question, and your on solid ground.

4And Abel he too brought of the firstborn of his flocks and of their fattest, and the Lord turned to Abel and to his offering.

This is the best translation we can get. However, their concern isn't the word your looking at. Here is Rashi giving his take on another word ( turned)

turned: Heb. וַיִּשַׁע, and he turned. Likewise, (verse 5): “וְאֶל מִנְחָתוֹ לֹא שָׁעָה” means: [And to his offering] He did not turn. Similarly, (Exod. 5:9): וְאַל יִשְׁעוּ means: and let them not turn. Similarly, (Job 14:6): שְׁעֵה מֵעָלָיו means: turn away from him.

וישע: ויפן, וכן (פסוק ה) לא שעה אל מנחתו, לא פנה, וכן (שמות ה ט) ואל ישעו, אל יפנו. וכן (איוב יד ו) שעה מעליו, פנה מעליו:
and…turned: Fire descended and consumed his offering. — [from Song Zuta 6:2, Sefer Hayashar]

וישע: ירדה אש וליחכה מנחתו:


My own personal opinion of the phrase is similar to this. May the Lord turn his face upon you. This wording speaks to the pictures in Hebrew thought.
Are suggesting to me that I should believe God responded to Abel's offering by sending fire from heaven to burn the animals?

It is easy to see that God's view turned toward Abel. There is no conflict by exchanging the word "admire" with "turned", according to my purpose.
 
Most will reject what i say here.
These stories have been passed down since before the time of Moses and are written in portions of the Talmud.
Cannon simply means that which is used to measure. It is the lense in which we view all things.
This does not discredit all of the Jewish stories ( though some are clearly well outside of cannon and should be rejected and are by Orthodox Jews) and the Jews have many stories on what your assuming. This is one reason i purchased my Ramban commentary as it speaks to your assumptions, and more.

I looked into the Ramban Commentary online and all I can say is wow. I will be using it more often as it does bring out a better meaning to that of what is written in the English. It is a fountain of clarity through the original Hebrew language. Like you said though, many will not agree.

Ramban Commentary Genesis 4:7

If you improve, there is forgiveness. Alternatively, "If you improve you will rise [i.e above your brother]." And after all, it was your jealousy of him that caused you to be angry in the first place. But, if you do not improve. Not only will you suffer on account of your brother, but the evil inclination will lead you astray in everything you do. Its desire is unto you. It wishes to cling to you, but you can overcome it.

In this passage Hasem (God) teaches Kayan (Cain) that a person can repent whenever he chooses to.

As it goes on Cain and Abel went out to the field and because of the jealousy Cain had for Abel he killed him. God saw the evil in his heart and sent him out from His face, but, yet always wanted Cain to repent and turn back to Him.
 
I looked into the Ramban Commentary online and all I can say is wow. I will be using it more often as it does bring out a better meaning to that of what is written in the English. It is a fountain of clarity through the original Hebrew language. Like you said though, many will not agree.

Ramban Commentary Genesis 4:7

If you improve, there is forgiveness. Alternatively, "If you improve you will rise [i.e above your brother]." And after all, it was your jealousy of him that caused you to be angry in the first place. But, if you do not improve. Not only will you suffer on account of your brother, but the evil inclination will lead you astray in everything you do. Its desire is unto you. It wishes to cling to you, but you can overcome it.

In this passage Hasem (God) teaches Kayan (Cain) that a person can repent whenever he chooses to.

As it goes on Cain and Abel went out to the field and because of the jealousy Cain had for Abel he killed him. God saw the evil in his heart and sent him out from His face, but, yet always wanted Cain to repent and turn back to Him.
I didn't know his commentary was online! I know Shiloh Publishing stopped printing copies. Can you send me a link?

You will find multiple conversations throughout his commentary in regard to other Rabbi's. Some may be hard to follow as they have their own talking points that if your not familiar with them, may confuse you or you'll look over them as not significant.

Read the wells of Esek and you'll leave scratching your head and asking why they didn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
 
Are suggesting to me that I should believe God responded to Abel's offering by sending fire from heaven to burn the animals?
it would have been redundant to do so since the One they knew to be God was the one doing all the work for them. I think that may have tipped them off that it was acceptable. But heck of a point.
 
The fat represents the abundance from the land. You'll never see fat on an animal that was starved.

This, we give out of the abundance which God provides.

I'll bet you cut the fat off your steak and throw it away, don't you!

I'm not much of a steak eater, but do like a good beef roast and that I cut the fat off after it's cooked. Fat gives flavor to the meat as you said here as it represents the abundance from the land. It's a good flavor.
 
I didn't know his commentary was online! I know Shiloh Publishing stopped printing copies. Can you send me a link?

You will find multiple conversations throughout his commentary in regard to other Rabbi's. Some may be hard to follow as they have their own talking points that if your not familiar with them, may confuse you or you'll look over them as not significant.

Read the wells of Esek and you'll leave scratching your head and asking why they didn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

I just typed in Ramban commentary on Genesis and it came up under sefaria.org

Just type in Ramban commentary and it brings up not only this site, but Chabad.org and all kinds of places.
 
Can you offer a better resource? I would find that useful.
Good morning,
Don't get me wrong, Strongs is a great resource, but it's always good to put it in it's proper context.
I know you like to study deeply. Give this a try and see if it gives some depth to Strongs.


Are suggesting to me that I should believe God responded to Abel's offering by sending fire from heaven to burn the animals?
No, i was simply expanding your awareness of other views. Never brush off another's view just because you disagree at the offset. With all Jewish commentary, they are having discussions among themselves we are completely unaware of.

It is easy to see that God's view turned toward Abel. There is no conflict by exchanging the word "admire" with "turned", according to my purpose.
Yes, of course there is no conflict according to your purpose. However, if there were no conflict, Rashi would not have brought it up. If you seek wisdom within the scripture through understanding, then a good student asks the question, " why does Rashi find this important enough to bring it out". In other words, what deeper teachings does this lead us to?

While I'm not familiar enough with Rashi, i do know he sticks close the the text.

As you started, Hebrews think in pictures. A man I know who was trying to teach me Hebrew ( which i did not learn because he moved) but he taught me this concept. We think in Nouns, Hebrews think in Verbs.

We call it a door. They call it a swinger.

With this in mind, what picture comes into your mind when we say God admired.
What picture comes into your mind when we say God turned toward.

In Jewish thought, it's not so much what you think but rather, what you do.
 
it would have been redundant to do so since the One they knew to be God was the one doing all the work for them. I think that may have tipped them off that it was acceptable. But heck of a point.
I can't make sense of what you wrote here. Are you saying that you belive God did burn the animals that Abel brought to Him?
 
Good morning,
Don't get me wrong, Strongs is a great resource, but it's always good to put it in it's proper context.
I know you like to study deeply. Give this a try and see if it gives some depth to Strongs.
That is too much work for me. I am looking for a lexicon that can add to the definitions in the Strong's word database, that I have put together as a search tool: https://adonai-reigns.life/api/strongs/search.html

No, i was simply expanding your awareness of other views. Never brush off another's view just because you disagree at the offset.

I am actually obligated to do so, if it is of a nature that is contrary to the truth. To suggest that God responded by burning the animals is a heinous mischaracterisation and blasphemy (1 John 4:8) - Ramban's view of God is a god that I do not worship (eg: Mark 12:27).

With all Jewish commentary, they are having discussions among themselves we are completely unaware of.

Yes, of course there is no conflict according to your purpose. However, if there were no conflict, Rashi would not have brought it up. If you seek wisdom within the scripture through understanding, then a good student asks the question, " why does Rashi find this important enough to bring it out". In other words, what deeper teachings does this lead us to?

I am not of Apollos or of Paul or of Rashi. As soon as Rashi adds to Genesis 4:4 the view that God does not love His own sheep, but rather burns them to ash, he is inferior to the spirit I know God to be. A student is never greater than his teacher - if you go under his teaching, you will never rise above it.

"God saw all that He had made, behold, it was good. " Obviously God had a great delight in the world He had made. Do you think any one sparrow can be taken from that world without being an assault on His joy? Of course, only a mind of bloodlust that has been bent to think that it increases God's joy to aquit them for having done such things, right? What is my proper part in such things?

While I'm not familiar enough with Rashi, i do know he sticks close the the text.

That is an unjustified belief in this case. It discredits you because you have stood with him in his wrongness to be against me - and I have testified of what I am reading.

As you started, Hebrews think in pictures. A man I know who was trying to teach me Hebrew ( which i did not learn because he moved) but he taught me this concept. We think in Nouns, Hebrews think in Verbs.

We call it a door. They call it a swinger.

With this in mind, what picture comes into your mind when we say God admired.
What picture comes into your mind when we say God turned toward.

In Jewish thought, it's not so much what you think but rather, what you do.

The picture in my mind is the same, except for the fact that in saying He admired, there is no implied dishonour to the other (ie: Cain). A mind that thinks with the fallen mindset (as we we once walked among them), is inclined to view God as having turned toward Abel as though He could choose only Cain or Abel but not both. That is only because of the juxtaposition of the two - where envy is present to give context.

To use 'admired' in the form of a verb is perfectly valid, even with the present grammar - it is meant to show a movement: "he came to admire". God's view toward Abel changed - Abel became something in God's eyes that He favoured.

If we can implement the correct view of God as being impartial in judgement, then it is easy to read that God was not particularly toward Abel until he brought his gifts - and that the offering grabbed His attention so that He turned toward Him.

Something about Abel's gift attracted God's affection, and Cain knew it. His brother was jealous, and we are tainted by that fact in considering that God turned from Cain to Abel. I just need to be clear that it isn't necessary. They both could have found God's favour. God could have turned to Cain as well as to Abel (for man judges by the outward appearance, but God looks to the heart). That is what He pleads with Cain in verse 9 you raised earlier. It was too late for Cain though. Had he not been the first person to murder a brother in rage, he might have appreciated God's advice duly. He had, however, no such power over sin in order to give love the throne of his heart (James 5:19-20).
 
I can't make sense of what you wrote here. Are you saying that you belive God did burn the animals that Abel brought to Him?
no, I am saying the Lord was the one doing all that needed to be done for Him to also bring fire down to show His acceptance of what He was doing seems redundant. Would they not know it was acceptable as He was the One who did it.
 
no, I am saying the Lord was the one doing all that needed to be done for Him to also bring fire down to show His acceptance of what He was doing seems redundant. Would they not know it was acceptable as He was the One who did it.
What is this thing you are saying He did?
 
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