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What does it mean to perish (apóllymi)?

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chessman

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622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy"

It is NOT simply bodily death.

Matthew 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to apóllymi both soul and body in hell.

apóllymi is the permanent, absolute destruction of BOTH the body and the soul.

apóllymi will occur in Hell

apóllymi cannot be done by man but rather only by The One (The Lord).

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to apóllymi, but all to come to repentance.

To "apóllymi " is the opposite of coming to (aorist) repentance.

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish (apóllymi) forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand.

Someone given Eternal Life will not apóllymi. Forever!
 

billybalke

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622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy"

It is NOT simply bodily death.

Matthew 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to apóllymi both soul and body in hell.

apóllymi is the permanent, absolute destruction of BOTH the body and the soul.

apóllymi will occur in Hell

apóllymi cannot be done by man but rather only by The One (The Lord).

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to apóllymi, but all to come to repentance.

To "apóllymi " is the opposite of coming to (aorist) repentance.

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish (apóllymi) forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand.

Someone given Eternal Life will not apóllymi. Forever!
Right to a point. If you had this on the one on one I would have answered it. God bless anyway
 

FreeGrace

 
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chessman said:
"Someone given Eternal Life will not apóllymi. Forever!"
Right to a point. If you had this on the one on one I would have answered it. God bless anyway
First, what's wrong with this thread? Why so unwilling to debate on open threads?

Second, was Jesus only "right to a point" when He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28?

No, He was totally right. The only point of John 10:28 is eternal security. Those given eternal life shall never perish.
 

chessman

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First, what's wrong with this thread? Why so unwilling to debate on open threads?
For me, I kinda like the rules set up for the open debate threads (use Scripture to support your position and counter disagreement claims, answer relevant questions or your position is weak, address issues not persons, etc.). And I like the fact that others can point out errors (yes even mine). The moderators do a good job of a challenging enough task already.
 

gr8grace3

 
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John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish (apóllymi) forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand.
Someone given Eternal Life will not apóllymi. Forever!
And to put emphasis on it, "will never perish" is a double negative.

His sheep, will not, absolutely will not ever perish.

ou 3756 ---- part --- -- ------- not
mn 3361 ---- part --- -- ------- may not
apollumi 0622 aor mid sub 3p ---verb to perish


26th ed. Nestles, Allen Text, American Bible Society; New York
Gramcord Institute, 2218 NE Brookview Dr,; Vancouver WA 98686
 

WIP

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The question presented by the OP is "What does it mean to perish (apóllymi)?" This is not another OSAS vs OSNAS thread. Let's stay on topic!
 

Chopper

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622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy"

It is NOT simply bodily death.

Matthew 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to apóllymi both soul and body in hell.

apóllymi is the permanent, absolute destruction of BOTH the body and the soul.

apóllymi will occur in Hell

apóllymi cannot be done by man but rather only by The One (The Lord).

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to apóllymi, but all to come to repentance.

To "apóllymi " is the opposite of coming to (aorist) repentance.

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish (apóllymi) forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand.

Someone given Eternal Life will not apóllymi. Forever!
but rather fear him, which is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. This is a description of God, and of his power, who is able to do that which men are not: all that they can do, by divine permission, is to kill the body; but he is able to "destroy", that is, to torment and punish both body and soul "in hell", in everlasting burnings; for neither soul nor body will be annihilated; though this he is able to do. As the former clause expresses the immortality of the soul, this supposes the resurrection of the body; for how otherwise should it be destroyed, or punished with the soul in hell? Now this awful being which is able to hurl, and will hurl all wicked and slothful, unfaithful and unprofitable, cowardly and temporising servants and ministers, soul and body, into the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, is to be feared and dreaded; yea, indeed, he only is to be feared, and to be obeyed: cruel and persecuting men are not to be feared at all; God alone should be our fear and dread; though the argument seems to be formed from the lesser to the greater; yet this, is the sense of the word "rather", that God is to be feared, not chiefly and principally only, but solely; and in some versions that word is left out, as in the Arabic, and Ethiopic, and in Munster's Hebrew Gospel.
 

chessman

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he is able to "destroy", that is, to torment and punish both body and soul "in hell"
Can you provide any verse(s) where "apóllymi"
means to "torment" the body or soul?
That is a different word, right?

As the former clause expresses the immortality of the soul
What expresses the immortality of the soul?

Paul said we seek immortality.

Romans 2:7-8 to those who, by perseverance in good work, seek glory and honor and immortality, eternal life, but to those who act from selfish ambition and who disobey the truth, but who obey unrighteousness, wrath and anger.

Are you suggesting that the unrighteous souls indeed have immortality and therefore God cannot actually destroy/apóllymi (which means permanent absolute destruction) their souls in Hell?

this supposes the resurrection of the body; for how otherwise should it be destroyed,
If the resurrected bodies of the wicked can be destroyed by God (and God alone), cannot also their souls be destroyed?
 

gr8grace3

 
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Are you suggesting that the unrighteous souls indeed have immortality and therefore God cannot actually destroy/apóllymi (which means permanent absolute destruction) their souls in Hell?
Yes, God can apollymi/destroy them. But it never means to cease to exist. unbelievers and the fallen angels permanently exist in a destroyed state......eternal death. And they experience eternal death in a destroyed state.

Imagine it as a car that is completely destroyed in an accident........but it still exists as a completely destroyed object.

If apollymi meant cease to exist.......this is the word we would see.

2 Pet 3:11~~New American Standard Bible
Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

3089 lýō – properly, loose (unleash) let go; release (unbind) so something no longer holds together;
 

chessman

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Imagine it as a car that is completely destroyed in an accident........but it still exists as a completely destroyed object.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will vanish with a mighty and thunderous roar, and the material elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and the works that are on it will be burned up.​

Do you imagine that the heavens will not actually vanish in their destruction but rather 'still exist'? It'll be more like they are wrecked rather than actually burned up?
 

chessman

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Imagine it as a car that is completely destroyed in an accident........but it still exists
Isn't a better Biblical example that of Sodom's destruction?

2 Peter 2:6 and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, having appointed them as an example for those who are going to be ungodly,
 

gr8grace3

 
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2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will vanish with a mighty and thunderous roar, and the material elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and the works that are on it will be burned up.​

Do you imagine that the heavens will not actually vanish in their destruction but rather 'still exist'? It'll be more like they are wrecked rather than actually burned up?
Yes. The old earth and the old heavens will vanish. They are let loose and no longer exist. And a new earth and new heaven will take their place.
New American Standard Bible
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
 

chessman

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Yes. The old earth and the old heavens will vanish.
Okay. Then the word (apollymi) includes their "vanishing" via their destruction.

How then does it follow that the resurrected and finally judged wicked cannot similarly vanish (or to use your phrase 'cease to exist') via their destruction (same as the old Earth)???

Makes no sense to me.

Junk yards are full of wrecked cars (they have not vanished) yet it seems to me (and you and Peter and John), that this old Earth will in fact vanish when burned up by God's eternal fire. Exampled by Sodom.
 

wondering

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And to put emphasis on it, "will never perish" is a double negative.

His sheep, will not, absolutely will not ever perish.

ou 3756 ---- part --- -- ------- not
mn 3361 ---- part --- -- ------- may not
apollumi 0622 aor mid sub 3p ---verb to perish


26th ed. Nestles, Allen Text, American Bible Society; New York
Gramcord Institute, 2218 NE Brookview Dr,; Vancouver WA 98686
Hi gg

Will not perish is Not a double negative!

His sheep will never perish.
Right.

What happens to the others?
 

chessman

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Will not perish is Not a double negative!
In the original Greek Text it is. Thus his citing of the sources that support (prove) his point.
In English grammar, double negatives convert to a positive (for some odd reason). But in NT Greek, they emphasized the negative.

Like Truly, Truly I say to you ... does for the positives in NT Greek and English.
 

wondering

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Can you provide any verse(s) where "apóllymi"
means to "torment" the body or soul?
That is a different word, right?


What expresses the immortality of the soul?

Paul said we seek immortality.

Romans 2:7-8 to those who, by perseverance in good work, seek glory and honor and immortality, eternal life, but to those who act from selfish ambition and who disobey the truth, but who obey unrighteousness, wrath and anger.

Are you suggesting that the unrighteous souls indeed have immortality and therefore God cannot actually destroy/apóllymi (which means permanent absolute destruction) their souls in Hell?



If the resurrected bodies of the wicked can be destroyed by God (and God alone), cannot also their souls be destroyed?
Can you provide any verse(s) where "apóllymi"
means to "torment" the body or soul?
That is a different word, right?


What expresses the immortality of the soul?

Paul said we seek immortality.

Romans 2:7-8 to those who, by perseverance in good work, seek glory and honor and immortality, eternal life, but to those who act from selfish ambition and who disobey the truth, but who obey unrighteousness, wrath and anger.

Are you suggesting that the unrighteous souls indeed have immortality and therefore God cannot actually destroy/apóllymi (which means permanent absolute destruction) their souls in Hell?



If the resurrected bodies of the wicked can be destroyed by God (and God alone), cannot also their souls be destroyed?
Hi Chessman,
Not sure, but maybe the soul is causing some confusion?
We're made up of a body, a soul and a spirit.

Everyone has a soul, even those unsaved.
The soul is immortal, it can never die.

Our spirit is our God part that allows us to bring with God forever.
We also keep our soul.

This thread is interesting because some believe that the saved will go to heaven and the unsaved will just disappear. This is annihialism.

I don't believe this could be true because Jesus clearly spoke of hell.

Also there's a problem with the translation of Hell I the NT.

Will read the rest,,,I might be derailing your thread.
 

wondering

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In the original Greek Text it is. Thus his citing of the sources that support (prove) his point.
In English grammar, double negatives convert to a positive (for some odd reason). But in NT Greek, they emphasized the negative.

Like Truly, Truly I say to you ... does for the positives in NT Greek and English.
Thanks C
I know what you mean even in the English...
They will Not Not live.!
Could you comment on my last post?
I don't have a Bible right now.
I wanted to comment that there is only one place where hell means hell.
I think Peter 2. Not sure. But it's a place reserved for fallen angels.

I think it's called Taurus.
Can't look it up on this thing!
 

chessman

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Hi Chessman,
Hi. Been missing your input.

We're made up of a body, a soul and a spirit.
And a heart and a mind and eyes and ears, etc

1 Kings 8:48 if they return to you with all of their heart and with all of their soul in the land of their enemies who took them captive and they pray to you toward their land which you gave to their ancestors, the city that you have chosen and the house that you built for your name,

Matthew 22:37 And he said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
It's a very important principle. But what of those souls, minds and hearts that do not love God but hate Him???

Everyone has a soul, even those unsaved.
Yes. And God can (most assuredly) destroy (apóllymi) the soul in Hell.

Matthew 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The soul is immortal, it can never die.
Who told you that? Couldn't it be that you were misinformed???

Jesus specifically says He's able to destroy souls. How can soul's be immortal then?

James says a person's soul can die:

James 5:20 he should know that the one who turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save that person’s soul from death, and will cover over a great number of sins.

Paul says only God has immortality:

1 Timothy 6:16 the one who alone possesses immortality, who lives in unapproachable light, whom no human being has seen nor is able to see, to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.

And gifts immortality only to those that seek after Him per Jesus' command in Matt 22:37.

David thought souls could die:

Psalm 56:10-13 God, whose word I praise, Yahweh, whose word I praise, God I trust; I do not fear. What can mere humankind do to me? My vows to you, O God, are binding upon me. I will pay thank offerings to you, because you have delivered my soul from death. Have you not kept my feet from stumbling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

This thread is interesting because some believe that the saved will go to heaven and the unsaved will just disappear.
I find that discovering and studying what the Scriptures teach (in this case what the apóllymi of body and soul in Hell means) to be more interesting than what some people believe . Various people believe all sorts of stuff.
 

FreeGrace

 
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I don't have a Bible right now.
I wanted to comment that there is only one place where hell means hell.
I think Peter 2. Not sure. But it's a place reserved for fallen angels.

I think it's called Taurus.
No, that's just a Ford.

The place for fallen angels is called tartarus.
 

Chopper

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Yes, God can apollymi/destroy them. But it never means to cease to exist. unbelievers and the fallen angels permanently exist in a destroyed state......eternal death. And they experience eternal death in a destroyed state.

Imagine it as a car that is completely destroyed in an accident........but it still exists as a completely destroyed object.

If apollymi meant cease to exist.......this is the word we would see.

2 Pet 3:11~~New American Standard Bible
Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

3089 lýō – properly, loose (unleash) let go; release (unbind) so something no longer holds together;
gr8grace3 I agree with your post. Why? Because to destroy in our language is to ruin completely. To spoil so the restoration is impossible. That makes sense because to destroy means no return for the sinner who doesn't repent and trust Jesus.

I like 2 Thessalonians 1:9....
2Thessalonians 1:8 "in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,"
 
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