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What does it mean to perish (apóllymi)?

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JLB

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Are you teaching us that the age of the resurrection from the dead is future?
Yes. That age is future, as well as the resurrection from the dead, which occurs on the last Day.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, is a statement about the future, as "attain that age" speaks of the age to come, and those who being Judged at that time by the Lord, will have been found to be worthy.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

Now in this age, Jesus says those who are counted worthy to attain that age and the resurrection from the dead...

That age and the resurrection of the dead are future.



JLB
 

chessman

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Could you share with us where your belief comes from, that is faith in what God created?
I don't have a belief that is faith in what God. created. Those are your words not mine and Paul's.

Yes. That age is future, as well as the resurrection from the dead, which occurs on the last Day.
Ah, I see your problem, you just don't believe these verses:

John 5:25 “Truly, truly I say to you, that an hour is coming—and now is here—when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones who hear will live.

I'm with Jesus (in Christ) that hour is now here brother!

Romans 6:8-11 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him, knowing that Christ, because he has been raised from the dead, is going to die no more, death no longer being master over him. For that death he died, he died to sin once and never again, but that life he lives, he lives to God. So also you, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.​

Can you explain how Christ has been raised from the dead, yet also claim that age of resurrection is not here presently??? No!

1 Corinthians 15:22-23 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own group: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ’s at his coming,

Can you explain how Christ the first fruits has been resurrected if we are not in the age of the resurrection??? No!


BTW, Your list of unanswered questions keeps making your argument weaker and weaker, so I framed the questions above as rhetorical so as not to get in the way of the lack answers to some of the questions your case has left unanswered (Re-posted below for your convenience) :

1.
(I'm of the doctrine that anyone means anyone including themselves and Satan).
Aren't you?
2.
in the verse above, do deacons obtain salvation by serving well?
3.
Did you know that everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer?
 

chessman

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And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40
Everyone???

The last day of what??? The last day of the age of the resurrection!
Can you explain how you have a last day prior to having a first??? No!

That age and the resurrection of the dead are future.
Incorrect, as the Greek verb tenses are NOT, future. As previously posted.

Do you believe Christ was resir in the past?
 

FreeGrace

 
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This is what I said:
"Here's the truth:
1. eternal life is a PRESENT POSSESSION when one believes. John 3:15,16, 5:24 and 6:47
2. those given eternal life (when they believe) shall never perish. John 10:28

Neither of these statements has been refuted, nor can be. They are biblically based.

The view that salvation can be lost is in direct contradiction to these verses."
First, you are not presenting any language or words with the context that can be examined by all who are participating in this discussion.
This claim is preposterous. Anyone familiar with the English language is able to examine my words. Along with the context. I am sorry that this presents such a formidable challenge.

And I am quite sure that the including of "all who are participating in this discussion" is completely untrue. I'll even bet that those who disagree with my views are able to examine my words. They are clear enough.

Once again, Jesus clearly taught that those who believe presently have eternal life in Jn 3:15,16, 5:24, and 6:47.

And John 10:28 plainly states that Jesus gives eternal life. So we know from the previous verses that He gives eternal life WHEN one believes. And we also know that those given eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

This is the clearest way to describe eternal security possible.
 

JLB

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I don't have a belief that is faith in what God. created. Those are your words not mine and Paul's.
There are only two choices.

  1. Faith in Christ Jesus the Creator.
  2. Faith in what Christ Jesus created.
There is no such thing as "faith" in anything other than Christ Jesus.

Faith comes from hearing God, not something else.

There is one faith: Faith in Christ.

If you don't believe Paul was speaking of this faith in Christ, in 1 Timothy 4:1, then you believe it refers to faith in what Jesus Christ created.

There is only two choices:

  1. The Creator
  2. What the Creator created.

Which do you believe, Chessman?


Not even Freegrace would try and "redefine" the phrase "the faith", into faith in what God created.



JLB
 

JLB

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This is what I said:
"Here's the truth:
1. eternal life is a PRESENT POSSESSION when one believes. John 3:15,16, 5:24 and 6:47
2. those given eternal life (when they believe) shall never perish. John 10:28

Neither of these statements has been refuted, nor can be. They are biblically based.

The view that salvation can be lost is in direct contradiction to these verses."
Since there is no actual scripture in your post, but only opinion tagged with a reference, you statement is unbiblical, and contains no actual scripture.

Your statements were refuted by the simple fact that His sheep, God's people, Brethren, Christians can indeed become lost.

Sheep who become lost, because they have wandered from the truth, are in danger of eternal death, unless they repent and turn back to Him in obedience.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-21

  • he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death



This was easily accomplished from the beginning.

What you have failed to provide is scripture that says a lost sheep is till saved, even though it is lost.

That would mean Jesus had no need to preach the Gospel to the lost, or go after a lost sheep.



JLB
 

JLB

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Everyone???

The last day of what??? The last day of the age of the resurrection!
Can you explain how you have a last day prior to having a first??? No!


Incorrect, as the Greek verb tenses are NOT, future. As previously posted.

Do you believe Christ was resir in the past?
Can you explain how Christ the first fruits has been resurrected if we are not in the age of the resurrection??? No!
Yes, easily.

Here is the order -

Christ Jesus was resurrected in the past.

He was the firstfruits to be resurrected among many brethren.

21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:21-22

  • afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Do you believe the coming of the Lord and the resurrection is past?


JLB
 

JLB

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John 5:25Truly, truly I say to you, that an hour is coming—and now is here—when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones who hear will live.
I'm with Jesus (in Christ) that hour is now here brother!

Romans 6:8-11 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him, knowing that Christ, because he has been raised from the dead, is going to die no more, death no longer being master over him. For that death he died, he died to sin once and never again, but that life he lives, he lives to God. So also you, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Can you explain how Christ has been raised from the dead, yet also claim that age of resurrection is not here presently??? No!

1 Corinthians 15:22-23 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own group: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ’s at his coming,
Can you explain how Christ the first fruits has been resurrected if we are not in the age of the resurrection??? No!


BTW, Your list of unanswered questions keeps making your argument weaker and weaker, so I framed the questions above as rhetorical so as not to get in the way of the lack answers to some of the questions your case has left unanswered (Re-posted below for your convenience) :

1.

Can you still die?


JLB
 

JLB

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chessman said:
Did you know that everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer?

Yes


  • Can you post a scripture that says believing/obeying is no longer required after a person becomes born again?


He who obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB



JLB
 

JLB

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I don't have a belief that is faith in what God. created. Those are your words not mine and Paul's.

Great then you admit that Paul was referring to "departing from faith in Christ".

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1

How can someone still have salvation through faith, if they have departed from the faith?



JLB
 

FreeGrace

 
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This is what I said:
"Here's the truth:
1. eternal life is a PRESENT POSSESSION when one believes. John 3:15,16, 5:24 and 6:47
2. those given eternal life (when they believe) shall never perish. John 10:28
Since there is no actual scripture in your post, but only opinion tagged with a reference, you statement is unbiblical, and contains no actual scripture.
"no actual scripture", huh? Well, that certainly explains your unbiblical views. You've just conveniently excluded the actual Scripture that refutes your views.

Regardless, I did cite actual Scripture, whether anyone accepts John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47, and 10:28 as actual Scripture or not.

Your statements were refuted by the simple fact that His sheep, God's people, Brethren, Christians can indeed become lost.
I reject your opinion here, as the actual Scripture I cited REFUTES your unbiblical opinion.

Which biblical text actually claims that a saved person can become unsaved, which is what I understand the term "lost" means?

Your problem: no such text or verse supports your claim.

Sheep who become lost, because they have wandered from the truth, are in danger of eternal death, unless they repent and turn back to Him in obedience.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-21
The "death" here refers to divine discipline resulting in physical death, which is clearly seen in 1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep (euphemism for physical death, which Jesus Himself used in John 11 for Lazarus).

Here's the truth:
1. eternal life is a PRESENT POSSESSION when one believes. John 3:15,16, 5:24 and 6:47
2. those given eternal life (when they believe) shall never perish. John 10:28

Neither of these points has been refuted from Scripture. Just disagreed with and rejected by those who can't find any Scriptural support for their disagreement and rejection.
 

FreeGrace

 
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Can you post a scripture that says believing/obeying is no longer required after a person becomes born again?
The real challenge is for anyone to post Scripture that a saved person can become unsaved!

It can't be done.
 

chessman

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There are only two choices.

  1. Faith in Christ Jesus the Creator.
  2. Faith in what Christ Jesus created.
Are you familiar with a false dichotomy???
You just posted one. There's a third option (namely found in the rest of Paul's sentence):

3. Departure from the Faith is = paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of liars, who are seared in their own conscience, who forbid marrying and insist on abstaining from foods that God created for sharing in with thankfulness by those who believe and who know the truth, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

I don't pay any attention to teachings that have departed from teaching that everything (and I mean everything) created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, so that we may walk in them.

And I already told you my answer to what "the faith" is in 1 Tim 4:1-5 using the very words of Paul you like to chop off. "The" in "the faith" is a sure give away. It's a direct article, directly pointing to the faith departure explained in the very sentence structure from which it appears. Not to another chapter or letter.

Do you believe the coming of the Lord and the resurrection is past?
Of course they're past.

Do you believe in the incarnation, death on the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ (The Son of Man, the first fruits of the resurrection)?

Do you believe the Second coming will be the first coming or the second?

Do you believe the first fruits of the resurrection is not Christ's resurrection and He's still in the tomb?

Do you understand that your case has fallen apart (not that it had any legs to begin with)???

Can you still die?
Yes, but not perish! Now, we're talking OP topic (which is why I even started this thread to begin with).

Do you believe that the body dying is the same as the body and soul "perishing" (apollumi)?

John 10:27-28 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish (apollumi) forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand.

This says nothing (NADA) about dying.
 

FreeGrace

 
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How can someone still have salvation through faith, if they have departed from the faith?
Because no one is saved by their faith in Christ. They are saved through faith in Christ. A difference discerned by rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Another truth: those who are given eternal life by Jesus shall never perish. Said Jesus in John 10:28. Once given eternal life, always saved.

Care to refute what Jesus said?
 

Angel Water

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The real challenge is for anyone to post Scripture that a saved person can become unsaved!

It can't be done.
Amen! Jesus died to bring salvation to the world of the lost. Not so that people could choose to undo what God's grace did for all time.
 

Jim Parker

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Trump is not part of our discussion.
You have inserted him into the discussion by posting a political cartoon in every one of your pos
You should not do this if you are going to become abusive when receiving answers you do not want.
Neither should I put up with intentionally evasive answers.
It is not "abusive" to tell someone that they are being evasive.
 

chessman

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It is not "abusive" to tell someone that they are being evasive.
It is when the person you tell has not been evasive.

I have answered every one of your relevant questions that are not loaded with your personal assumptions (unlike yourself).

I have no idea what the SDA or JWs doctrines are on the destruction of the wicked's bodies and souls in Hell. Nor do I care what they teach about it. I do know the JWs teach Jesus is not God incarnate so that's enough to put them outside of orthodoxy. I haven't studied their teachings (or the SDA) on the destruction of the wicked in Hell or the atonement or creation or 1,000 other doctrines. How in the world you think I could answer a question based around their teaching, I have no idea.

Will you answer a loaded question formed in similar construction to the one you asked me;

Here's your question then mine:

Do you or do you not accept the JHW/SDA heretical teaching of the annihilation of the wicked dead?
Do you or do you not accept that my wife Mary Jane's birthday is 24 Dec 1959?

1. My question assumes you know my wife's name.

2. My question assumes you accept that her name is Mary Jane.

3. My question assumes I'm married.

4. My question assumes Mary and Jane are names of the same person.

So have at it ... answer yes or no or you're 'evading' my question. Let's see how you do.


List of questions you've avoided answering just in this thread alone:
1.
Is it your position that sinful hedonistic atheists get to live eternally in Hell in the same condition (lost) that they live in now?
2.
why do no translations pick "lost" for the English translation of the final fate of the wicked in Hell? (Such as in Matt 10:28) If they are 'lost' now and 'lost' in Hell, wouldn't they be living the same lifestyle there as here? And doing so while enjoying their eternal lifestyle?
 
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JLB

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This is what I said:
"Here's the truth:
1. eternal life is a PRESENT POSSESSION when one believes. John 3:15,16, 5:24 and 6:47
2. those given eternal life (when they believe) shall never perish. John 10:28
What we have presently, is the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, if we are one with Him, we are one with the eternal life that is only found in Him.

As long as we remain in Him, we remain in the eternal life that is in Him.

If we are removed from Him, then we no longer joined to the eternal life that is only found in Him.

You have quoted some references that refer to believe, obey, commit and trust in the Lord, but have never addressed the truth of those who believe for a while then return to disobedience, or those who are removed and severed from Him, or have become lost, while ignoring the context of those "references" you quoted.

Example:

John 5:24 says he who hears [hearkens to do] and believes [commits to, trusts in and obeys].

How can commitment and obedience be established in the first moments of a new believer?

This alone indicates that it is at the end of a person's life, when there life has been evaluated, that they can judged whether or not they have been faithful to their Lord. During our life on earth we will have many opportunities to forgive, love and either practice righteousness or practice disobedience and evil.

This is why if we read just a few more sentences, we find that Jesus tells these words:

  • those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
  • those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29


again in John 3:16, you make the same mistake of not reading the context, in which you place all of the emphasis on what a person does in the moment they first believe, while ignoring all the rest of the person's life, of their deeds, what they do with the Life of Jesus Christ they have been given, whether they live their life according to the Spirit of Christ within, or whether they choose live according to their sinful flesh, in disobedience to their Lord.

When Jesus becomes our Lord, we are to obey Him, as Lord, not the sin in our flesh, or the devil.

Look a little further, from John 3:16 and you will discover this same principle of believe, obey, commit to the Lord.


John 3 NASB -

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

  • he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.


JLB
 

JLB

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The real challenge is for anyone to post Scripture that a saved person can become unsaved!

It can't be done.
It's been done by many here, over and over (Edited by staff).

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

His sheep who become LOST have returned to being a sinner in need of repentance.

Are His sheep who become lost, saved or lost?

  1. saved
  2. lost

JLB
 
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JLB

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Are you familiar with a false dichotomy???
You just posted one. There's a third option (namely found in the rest of Paul's sentence):

3. Departure from the Faith is = paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of liars, who are seared in their own conscience, who forbid marrying and insist on abstaining from foods that God created for sharing in with thankfulness by those who believe and who know the truth, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

I don't pay any attention to teachings that have departed from teaching that everything (and I mean everything) created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, so that we may walk in them.

And I already told you my answer to what "the faith" is in 1 Tim 4:1-5 using the very words of Paul you like to chop off. "The" in "the faith" is a sure give away. It's a direct article, directly pointing to the faith departure explained in the very sentence structure from which it appears. Not to another chapter or letter.
And I already told you my answer to what "the faith" is in 1 Tim 4:1-5 using the very words of Paul you like to chop off. "The" in "the faith" is a sure give away.
Yes it is sure, because it is a reference to faith in Christ.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
1 Timothy 4:1-5

  • Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith.

The faith refers to the faith in Christ, not faith in food, or things created by God, which you claim is what "the faith" refers to by underlining and emphasizing this phrase in your post # 152 -

Here is your quote from post # 152 -

Chessman said

Wrong. Please underline "in Christ" in verse 4:1. It ain't there.

Again, 1 Timothy 4:1 is not even a complete sentence. Here's what Paul said people will depart from.

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of liars, who are seared in their own conscience, who forbid marrying and insist on abstaining from foods that God created for sharing in with thankfulness by those who believe and who know the truth, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.


Your claim that "the faith in Christ" is not mentioned but only "the faith" is, and underlining and emphasizing everything created by God,
shows everyone that it is your belief that faith in everything God created is "the faith" people will depart from in the last days.


Again, Chessman, please explain how someone comes to have faith in what God created, from the scriptures.


There are only two choices a person can depart from the faith in:

  1. The Creator; Christ Jesus
  2. His creation; something He created; food, angels, people, idols....



JLB
 
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