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What does it mean to perish (apóllymi)?

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wondering

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Mathew 22:37
Represents Spirit (heart), Soul (soul) and Mind (body).

Let's not get confused with the biblical terms. In the O.T. heart could mean soul, or spirit.
And the trichotomy of a person has to be understood from theology although the bible supports it.
Some theologians believe we are body and spirit
Some believe we are body, soul, and spirit.

I believe in the Trichotomy for one simple reason (although there are more)

Every one has a soul.
Every animal has a soul.
This is what let's each one of us be different and unique.

The body is amoral, mortal, imperfectible
The soul is amoral, mortal, imperfectibl
The spirit is moral, immortal, perfectable

There's more but not relevant to your thread.

We say that the body and soul are mortal, but I've never fully understood this.
IF we go on living forever, isn't EVERYTHING immortal?
Doesn't immortal mean that it never dies?

When speaking of immortality, we speak of something not having the capability of dying, I would assume.
The BODY dies.
The SOUL dies
The SPIRIT lives forever.

So where do these who do not believe go?
Some do believe in annihialism. Personally, I don't because I can't type that word.
Also, because Jesus spoke about a place that is without God. A place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mathew 22:13

A path that leads to destruction: (totally broken as you've established)
Mathew 7:14 few find the narrow gate....
Mathew 7:13 this leads to destruction

And those who did evil will be resurrected to judgement or condemnation (depending on version).
Jesus Always spoke of this place where the dead in spirit will go.
Wherever or whatever it is we gave it the name Hell.



Yes. And God can (most assuredly) destroy (apóllymi) the soul in Hell.

Matthew 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Who told you that? Couldn't it be that you were misinformed???
Yes. You're right. It depends on whether you believe in a dichotomy or a trichotomy.
In the trichotomy it would be mortal, although, as I said, this does not seem right to me.
Why? Because our soul is what makes us what we are.
Even dogs have souls. It's what makes each one different and what they are.


Jesus specifically says He's able to destroy souls. How can soul's be immortal then?
Ok, but then by the same token, how could ANYTHING of the body be destroyed?
Or the soul?
I see you're quoting scripture, but this is something that has to be learned outs

James says a person's soul can die:

James 5:20 he should know that the one who turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save that person’s soul from death, and will cover over a great number of sins.

Paul says only God has immortality:

1 Timothy 6:16 the one who alone possesses immortality, who lives in unapproachable light, whom no human being has seen nor is able to see, to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.

And gifts immortality only to those that seek after Him per Jesus' command in Matt 22:37.

David thought souls could die:

Psalm 56:10-13 God, whose word I praise, Yahweh, whose word I praise, God I trust; I do not fear. What can mere humankind do to me? My vows to you, O God, are binding upon me. I will pay thank offerings to you, because you have delivered my soul from death. Have you not kept my feet from stumbling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?



I find that discovering and studying what the Scriptures teach (in this case what the apóllymi of body and soul in Hell means) to be more interesting than what some people believe . Various people believe all sorts of stuff.[/QUOTE]








 
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wondering

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Chessman,
My post no. 21 might be a little messed up.
I had a problem posting it because CFnet went offline.
Sorry.
 

chessman

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Mathew 22:37
Represents Spirit (heart), Soul (soul) and Mind (body).

Let's not get confused with the biblical terms. In the O.T. heart could mean soul, or spirit.
The study of Biblical terms helps alleviate confusion, not cause it. "Heart" never means soul or spirit in the OT Hebrew or NT Greek. Sorry, but true. The soul is our very being (the whole person, physical and non-physical) Biblically speaking (see referenced below). Just as the souls of animals represents their whole being, their individuality.

I understand "soul" represents "soul", no disagreement there.
But I sure don't get mind representing our body or our heart representing our spirit (Biblically speaking). Got any lexicons whereby the word "heart" represents "spirit"? Or for our "mind" represents our "body"?

Our heart is our inner desire (i.e. 'our heart's desire). (See my support for my claim below). Our mind is our reasoning, critical thinking. Yes, our thinking is processed through the brain. However, the brain is NOT our mind. Our brains change states just a few microseconds after our thoughts change. (And atheistic neuroscientists just have a hissy fit over it, yet cannot prove otherwise).

Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to immorality, that their bodies would be dishonored among themselves,

2588 kardíaheart; "the affective center of our being" and the capacity of moral preference (volitional desire, choice; see P. Hughs, 2 Cor, 354); "desire-producer that makes us tick" (G. Archer), i.e our "desire-decisions" that establish who we really are.​

[Heart (2588 /kardía) is mentioned over 800 times in Scripture, but never referring to the literal physical pump that drives the blood. That is, "heart" is only used figuratively (both in the OT and NT.]
http://biblehub.com/greek/2588.htm

5590 psyxḗ (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul(psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality.​

God can (no doubt about it) destroy the soul (personhood) of the wicked in Hell (both body and soul).

If there is no person, there is no person's desire (heart), right!

Mind= diánoia ("critical thinking"), literally "thorough reasoning,"​

In summary, our minds (reasoning/thinking) reflect our hearts (our desires) and affect our personhood (our souls) eternally.

If an unbeliever's soul (the person) is to live forever, that person must change their mind (their thinking) toward Christ, which changes their heart (desire) which changes their body (brain) which saves their soul (their personhood).

The SPIRIT lives forever.
Who told you that? Couldn't it be that you were misinformed???

Jesus spoke about a place that is without God.
Yes. A place without the very Sustainer of all life. A place where the destruction of both the body and soul (the whole person) can be utterly destroyed.
Mathew 7:13 this leads to destruction

A place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Do spirits have teeth? What's illogical (unBiblical) with them (the wicked person) weeping and gnashing their teeth (their body) as they are lead to their soul's (their personhood) destruction (eternally this time, the Second Death)?
 
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wondering

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The study of Biblical terms helps alleviate confusion, not cause it. "Heart" never means soul or spirit in the OT Hebrew or NT Greek. Sorry, but true. The soul is our very being (the whole person, physical and non-physical) Biblically speaking (see referenced below). Just as the souls of animals represents their whole being, their individuality.

I understand "soul" represents "soul", no disagreement there.
But I sure don't get mind representing our body or our heart representing our spirit (Biblically speaking). Got any lexicons whereby the word "heart" represents "spirit"? Or for our "mind" represents our "body"?

Our heart is our inner desire (i.e. 'our heart's desire). (See my support for my claim below). Our mind is our reasoning, critical thinking. Yes, our thinking is processed through the brain. However, the brain is NOT our mind. Our brains change states just a few microseconds after our thoughts change. (And atheistic neuroscientists just have a hissy fit over it, yet cannot prove otherwise).

Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to immorality, that their bodies would be dishonored among themselves,

2588 kardíaheart; "the affective center of our being" and the capacity of moral preference (volitional desire, choice; see P. Hughs, 2 Cor, 354); "desire-producer that makes us tick" (G. Archer), i.e our "desire-decisions" that establish who we really are.​

[Heart (2588 /kardía) is mentioned over 800 times in Scripture, but never referring to the literal physical pump that drives the blood. That is, "heart" is only used figuratively (both in the OT and NT.]
http://biblehub.com/greek/2588.htm

5590 psyxḗ (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul(psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality.​

God can (no doubt about it) destroy the soul (personhood) of the wicked in Hell (both body and soul).

If there is no person, there is no person's desire (heart), right!

Mind= diánoia ("critical thinking"), literally "thorough reasoning,"​

In summary, our minds (reasoning/thinking) reflect our hearts (our desires) and affect our personhood (our souls) eternally.

If an unbeliever's soul (the person) is to live forever, that person must change their mind (their thinking) toward Christ, which changes their heart (desire) which changes their body (brain) which saves their soul (their personhood).


Who told you that? Couldn't it be that you were misinformed???


Yes. A place without the very Sustainer of all life. A place where the destruction of both the body and soul (the whole person) can be utterly destroyed.
Mathew 7:13 this leads to destruction


Do spirits have teeth? What's illogical about them weeping and gnashing their teeth (their body) as they are lead to their soul's (their personhood) destruction?
Hi Chessman
The Soul is indeed the personhood of a person.
(I see that my post did get a little messed up, but not too much)

It's very late here.
I'm not sure if I should concentrate on BODY SOUL SPIRIT
or
PERISH

It sounds like you might believe in the dichotomy of a person, not sure.
Will pick this up Tomorrow.

I believe I said I believe in the 3 part make up of a person.
Tomorrow...

(should I get into detail about this, I can but if you're not interested, it is some work. But I enjoy it)
 

FreeGrace

 
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I said:
"Always happy to lend a hand! I'm guessing there are more people in Tartarus than there are Taurus's."
LOL
Too bad...
I'll bet those in Tartarus would prefer to be in Taurus's rather than in Tartarus.
 

chessman

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I see that my post did get a little messed up, but not too much
Yes the partial quote (little +quote link at the bottom of every post quotes only the portion of a post that's highlighted at the time you press it. You can then highlight multiple sections (one at a time) and insert them all in the reply window. It's more organized than clicking "reply". But takes some getting use to.

It sounds like you might believe in the dichotomy of a person, not sure.
Not really. I believe in a physical and non-physical person. So from that sense, a dichotomist. There are also physicalists Christians, they believe in only the physical person (a little counter Scriptural if you ask me). But I understand we have a multitude of both physical and non physical parts (not just three). Hearts, minds, yes spirits, etc. (non-physical). Flesh, bones, bodies, teeth, ears, etc. (physical).

To me, the Bible is clear. The "soul" is the whole person (physical and non-physical). Call it what you will.

I believe I said I believe in the 3 part make up of a person.
Yes, and I agreed to at least the three parts you mentioned but pointed out that there's more than three parts to a "person" (a soul), Biblically speaking. Why just three???

should I get into detail about this, I can but if you're not interested, it is some work. But I enjoy it)
If you have relevant verses that teach the souls (or spirits or bodies for that matter) of all the wicked post-judged humans are not destroyed completely (physically and non-physically), by all means share them. I'd love to fit in with the crowd more if I can justify it Biblically.

Or if you have verses that teach any soul (any person) who has been given eternal life perish in Hell, that would be interesting and on topic too.

But I hear and understand what your position is. I agree with much of it, yet disagree with some. But hay, we both love the Lord, so no worries.
 
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wondering

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I said:
"Always happy to lend a hand! I'm guessing there are more people in Tartarus than there are Taurus's."

I'll bet those in Tartarus would prefer to be in Taurus's rather than in Tartarus.
You bet !
I think they'd be willing to settle for a KIA .
Personally, I'd take anything.
 

wondering

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Yes the partial quote (little +quote link at the bottom of every post quotes only the portion of a post that's highlighted at the time you press it. You can then highlight multiple sections (one at a time) and insert them all in the reply window. It's more organized than clicking "reply". But takes some getting use to.


Not really. I believe in a physical and non-physical person. So from that sense, a dichotomist. There are also physicalists Christians, they believe in only the physical person (a little counter Scriptural if you ask me). But I understand we have a multitude of both physical and non physical parts (not just three). Hearts, minds, yes spirits, etc. (non-physical). Flesh, bones, bodies, teeth, ears, etc. (physical).

To me, the Bible is clear. The "soul" is the whole person (physical and non-physical). Call it what you will.


Yes, and I agreed to at least the three parts you mentioned but pointed out that there's more than three parts to a "person" (a soul), Biblically speaking. Why just three???


If you have relevant verses that teach the souls (or spirits or bodies for that matter) of all the wicked post-judged humans are not destroyed completely (physically and non-physically), by all means share them. I'd love to fit in with the crowd more if I can justify it Biblically.

Or if you have verses that teach any soul (any person) who has been given eternal life perish in Hell, that would be interesting and on topic too.

But I hear and understand what your position is. I agree with much of it, yet disagree with some. But hay, we both love the Lord, so no worries.
C,
I thought you were kidding about the teeth and nose and eyes!
I see you're not.
I've never even heard of what you're speaking about.

Too tired now.
Domani.
 

gr8grace3

 
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Hi gg

Will not perish is Not a double negative!

His sheep will never perish.
Right.

What happens to the others?
Yes it is!!!

See, I put 3 exclamation points behind what I said. So I am right!!!

Seriously though........... Yes, " will not perish" is a double negative In John 10:28.

ou 3756 ---- part --- -- ------- not
mn 3361 ---- part --- -- ------- may not
apollumi 0622 aor mid sub 3p ---verb to perish


26th ed. Nestles, Allen Text, American Bible Society; New York
Gramcord Institute, 2218 NE Brookview Dr,; Vancouver WA 98686

Sorry Fran, But as weak as we are as believers......we will never, no not ever perish.<<<<<<the double negative in John 10:28.

And if you have a concordance, look it up. You will see for yourself. The numbers 3756 and 3361 in your concordance will show the EMPHATIC double negative.

His sheep will not, ABSOLUTELY will NOT perish.
 

gr8grace3

 
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Okay. Then the word (apollymi) includes their "vanishing" via their destruction.
Chessman........It is not the same word. Peter uses 3089 lýō to express the idea that the old earth is 'annihilated/ceases to exist'.

He doesn't use apollymi. Because apollymi doesn't express the idea that something is annihilated or ceases to exist.

New American Standard Bible
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

He doesn't say, " by annihilating them or making them cease to exist." He say's by REDUCING THEM TO ASHES.........a destroyed state, still in existence as ASHES, just in a destroyed state.



 

gr8grace3

 
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Personally, I'd take anything.
Except for eternal security? And the double negative of "will never perish" in John 10:28?

Ever heard of a Yugo? Loss of salvation is the equivalent of settling for and driving a Yugo when one could be driving a eternally secure 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO .

"The Yugo was a small car made in the former nation of Yugoslavia that survives in the American consciousness as the ultimate automotive failure. Poorly engineered, ugly, and cheap, it survived much longer as a punch line for comedians than it did as a vehicle on the roads."
 

chessman

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He doesn't use apollymi. Because apollymi doesn't express the idea that something is annihilated or ceases to exist.
Sure he does (twice) so does Jude:

2 Peter 3:5-7 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that the heavens existed long ago and the earth held together out of water and through water by the word of God, by means of which things the world that existed at that time was destroyed (apollumi) by being inundated with water. But by the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction (apollumi) of ungodly people.

Jude 1:5-7 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed (apollumi) those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling place, he has kept in eternal bonds under deep gloom for the judgment of the great day, as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

The world at the time of Noah existed, yet it was destroyed (apollumi) by flood except for Noah and his family and no longer exists. The coming destruction of the judged ungodly will be by fire not water as exampled by Sodom's destruction. What was once dust, then existed is judged wicked and reduced back to dust.

What he doesn't say is anything about a wrecked car/wagon/carriage.

Do you think the wrecking of a car's body is a good example of apollumi or is the destruction of Sodom (reduced back to ashes, vanishing) a better example?

James 1:11 For the sun rises with a scorching wind and withers the grass; and its flower falls off and the beauty of its appearance is destroyed (apollumi); so too the rich man in the midst of his pursuits will fade away.
 
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wondering

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Yes it is!!!

See, I put 3 exclamation points behind what I said. So I am right!!!

Seriously though........... Yes, " will not perish" is a double negative In John 10:28.

ou 3756 ---- part --- -- ------- not
mn 3361 ---- part --- -- ------- may not
apollumi 0622 aor mid sub 3p ---verb to perish


26th ed. Nestles, Allen Text, American Bible Society; New York
Gramcord Institute, 2218 NE Brookview Dr,; Vancouver WA 98686

Sorry Fran, But as weak as we are as believers......we will never, no not ever perish.<<<<<<the double negative in John 10:28.

And if you have a concordance, look it up. You will see for yourself. The numbers 3756 and 3361 in your concordance will show the EMPHATIC double negative.

His sheep will not, ABSOLUTELY will NOT perish.
Hey!
I happen to know English pretty well!
(see I didn't say pretty good)

I know what you mean about the double negative.
But it's correct to put it in the negative.

WE WILL PERISH. Means you're going to disappear.
WE WILL NOT PERISH. Means you're NOT going to disappear.

You're not, NOT, but it's grammatically correct in the English
!!!

See, I put 3 exclamations point. That means I'm sure.
I had already given up this battle way back up there if you check.

So now that we're done with the English lesson, let's get down to the serious stuff:

Did I say Jesus' sheep were going to perish?
NO!!!

Misunderstanding !!!

You do realize of course, that the 3 exclamation points DO MEAN SOMETHING!
Verily
Verily Verily
Verily Verily Verily

No way in Hebrew to say,
Good
Better
Best

So you repeat.
One verily from Jesus --- you listen.
Three --- you betta stop whatcha doin' and sit down!
 

wondering

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Except for eternal security? And the double negative of "will never perish" in John 10:28?

Ever heard of a Yugo? Loss of salvation is the equivalent of settling for and driving a Yugo when one could be driving a eternally secure 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO .

"The Yugo was a small car made in the former nation of Yugoslavia that survives in the American consciousness as the ultimate automotive failure. Poorly engineered, ugly, and cheap, it survived much longer as a punch line for comedians than it did as a vehicle on the roads."
GG,

Thanks. You gave me a couple of laughs this morning.
Boy, I know what a Kia is, I know what a Yugo is and I know what a Ferrari 250 GTO is.
And don't think I didn't notice that you HIGHLIGHTED that one!
Can't blame you.
It's a nice car!!!

I meant that I'd take any "car" rather than go to the hot place.

But do you believe we could just disappear? I'm not sure.
 

wondering

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Sure he does (twice) so does Jude:

2 Peter 3:5-7 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that the heavens existed long ago and the earth held together out of water and through water by the word of God, by means of which things the world that existed at that time was destroyed (apollumi) by being inundated with water. But by the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction (apollumi) of ungodly people.

Jude 1:5-7 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed (apollumi) those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling place, he has kept in eternal bonds under deep gloom for the judgment of the great day, as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

The world at the time of Noah existed, yet it was destroyed (apollumi) by flood except for Noah and his family. The coming destruction of the ungodly will be by fire, however, not water exampled by Sodom's destruction. What was once dust, then existed is judged wicked and reduced back to dust.

What he doesn't say is anything about a wrecked car/wagon.

Do think the wrecking of a car's body is a good example of apollumi or is the destruction of Sodom (reduced back to ashes, vanishing) a better example?
You're right chessman.
Some theogians take the word ,destroy, to mean total annihilation.

I understand more what Jesus said.
,,,That there is an eternal place where God is not present.
 

chessman

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,,,That there is an eternal place where God is not present.
Of course there is a place where God is not present that leads to the destruction (apollumi) of both the body and soul of the wicked.

Some theogians take the word ,destroy, to mean total annihilation.
Which is the point of the OP. Some so called 'theologians' insert all kinds of meanings into a Greek word that is straightforward and easy to understand (and spell). It's verb form means to intensely destroy some thing that exists. It's noun form, which is the result of the verb means complete destruction. Poof, easy to understand.

Here's the meaning and one of numerous examples of how Jesus used it (once again):

684 apṓleia (from 622/apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.)

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely(note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó)
http://biblehub.com/greek/622.htm

Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Only God can completely/fully/entirely and utterly destroy bodies and souls in a place called Hell.

I don't understand people's motivations to claim these persons are not completely, entirely and utterly destroyed when that's exactly what Jedus said. Odd really.
 
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wondering

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Of course there is a place where God is not present that leads to the destruction (apollumi) of both the body and soul of the wicked.



Which is the point of the OP. Some so called 'theologians' insert all kinds of meanings into a Greek word that is straightforward and easy to understand (and spell). It's verb form means to intensely destroy some thing that exists. It's noun form, which is the result of the verb means complete destruction. Poof, easy to understand.

Here's the meaning and one of numerous examples of how Jesus used it (once again):

684 apṓleia (from 622/apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.)

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely(note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó)
http://biblehub.com/greek/622.htm

Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Only God can completely/fully/entirely and utterly destroy bodies and souls in a place called Hell.

I don't understand people's motivations to claim these persons are not completely, entirely and utterly destroyed when that's exactly what Jedus said. Odd really.
Could you please tell me how you understand John 5:28:29

Also, what about the ending of the Wedding Banquet?
Mathew 22:1-13
Mathew 22:13

It seems to me that the destruction will not be total and ending, but will be eternal., forever in that state.
 
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