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What does it mean to perish (apóllymi)?

JLB

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Was the lost son still one of the Man's sons, yes or no?

Yes, which proves that sons of God can become lost.

If a person dies that became lost, is he still saved from perishing in the fires of hell?


JLB
 

JLB

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And was the older son angry at the fact that the younger son returned to a Father who still considered him a son?
Yes, which changes nothing about the son who was lost, being a sinner who was lost. in danger of perishing.


  • Can you post a scripture that says believing/obeying is no longer required after a person becomes born again?


He who obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB






JLB
 

wondering

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Is this not clear?

I get this understanding from all over the Bible (and from the Early Church Fathers).

For one Biblical example:

Romans 2:5, 9 But because of your [those who deny the Gospel, v4] stubbornness and unrepentant heart, you are storing up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and of the revelation of the righteous judgment of God, ... There will be affliction and distress for every human being who does evil, of the Jew first and of the Greek,

Anybody who thinks those who deny the Gospel do not receive the stored up wrath of God (exampled by Sodom's destruction) is just not reading clearly.


No. Everytime you highlight a partial quote from a post (even in other threads) it is "stored up" for you. When you enter the reply editor you can click "insert quotes" (which only appears if you have stored up some) and they all appear.

I believe those people's (those not clothed in Christ that is) unforgiven hardening of their heart and stubborness toward the Gospel get's wrath in proportion to their cache of such hardness/stubbornness. (Another good reason infants and pre-born deaths don't experience wrath). But that's what makes their destruction Just.
What's clear?
Are you saying you believe in annihialism?
So just say it aleady !

I read quickly through your link.
I appen to like the Early Church Fathers, or theologians.

I've been told they're not inspired.
Like maybe Calvin was??

So some like to point to them when it suits them, and at other times, they don't like to use them for support.

Fact is, they believed we have to work for our salvation an they didn't believe in eternal security.

Some in the biggest denominationl Church believe in annihilation.
It could be gleened from scripture.

I lost a Whole post regarding this just before.
But my last thoughts were that we don't need the Greek for anything. I know you won't agree.

To me everything is simple and easy.

You Believe............You're saved.
You don't Believe...You're not saved.

The saved are going to heaven.
The non-saved are going to hell.

Heaven and hell last forever.

I did write about Jesus and how He wouldn't have spent so much time ministering if He had come just for the atonement.
WHY would he preach so much unless there was a lot at stake?

Doing whatever I want in this life and not living within the Kingdom and then just disappearing actually sounds pretty appealing to some persons.
(maybe those who would not be saved anyway...)
 

Randy

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Because humans aren't angels and because Jesus said God has the power to destroy the body and soul (the whole person) of the wicked in Hell and will do just that.

Neither of the verses you posted say otherwise. Why do you think human souls will not be destroyed in Hell?
Destroyed doesn't have to mean annihilation. A soul thrown into the lake of fire that is tormented night and day with no rest is destroyed.
AS I have already stated "tormented" and no rest night and day suggests awareness. Even if GOD has the power to unmake spirit he doesn't appear to do so.
I do not hold to annihilation.
 

JohnDB

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What's clear?
Are you saying you believe in annihialism?
So just say it aleady !

I read quickly through your link.
I appen to like the Early Church Fathers, or theologians.

I've been told they're not inspired.
Like maybe Calvin was??

So some like to point to them when it suits them, and at other times, they don't like to use them for support.

Fact is, they believed we have to work for our salvation an they didn't believe in eternal security.

Some in the biggest denominationl Church believe in annihilation.
It could be gleened from scripture.

I lost a Whole post regarding this just before.
But my last thoughts were that we don't need the Greek for anything. I know you won't agree.

To me everything is simple and easy.

You Believe............You're saved.
You don't Believe...You're not saved.

The saved are going to heaven.
The non-saved are going to hell.

Heaven and hell last forever.

I did write about Jesus and how He wouldn't have spent so much time ministering if He had come just for the atonement.
WHY would he preach so much unless there was a lot at stake?

Doing whatever I want in this life and not living within the Kingdom and then just disappearing actually sounds pretty appealing to some persons.
(maybe those who would not be saved anyway...)
I'm not so worried about hell as much as I am grateful for Heaven.

To run and not get weary...
Tears of sorrow turned into laughing so hard that I'm crying...

That's what I am focusing on.
 

wondering

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I'm not so worried about hell as much as I am grateful for Heaven.

To run and not get weary...
Tears of sorrow turned into laughing so hard that I'm crying...

That's what I am focusing on.
Amen.
Who even thinks of hell?
We can feel safe in our Savior's hands.
 

chessman

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20 “And he arose and came to his father.
While still far away, his father was still his Father.

Jesus did not go after him.
You sure???

Luke 15:14 And after he had spent everything, there was a severe famine throughout that country, and he began to be in need.

Who creates severe famines on your view?

Ezekiel 14:13 “Son of man, when a land sins against me by acting very unfaithfully, then I will stretch out my hand against it, and I will break for it the supply of food, and I will send against it famine, and I will cut it off, both human and animal.

And the rest of the story:
it ends just like the prodigal son story does

Ezekiel 36:22-29 “Therefore thus say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Not for your sake am I about to act, house of Israel, but for my holy name, which you defiled among the nations to which you went. And I will consecrate my great name, which was profaned among the nations and which you have profaned in the midst of them, and the nations will know that I am Yahweh!”’ a declaration of the Lord Yahweh, when I show myself holy before their eyes. “‘And I will take you from the nations, and I will gather you from all of the lands, and I will bring you to your land. And I will sprinkle on you pure water, and you will be clean from all of your uncleanness, and I will cleanse you from all of your idols. And I will give a new heart to you, and a new spirit I will give into your inner parts, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh, and I will give to you a heart of flesh. And I will give my spirit into your inner parts, and I will make it so that you will go in my rules, and my regulations you will remember, and you will do them. And you will dwell in the land that I gave to your ancestors, and you will be to me as a people, and I will be to you as God. And I will save you from all of your uncleanness, and I will call to the grain, and I will cause it to increase, and I will not bring famine upon you.

He had to return in order to be found.
Did Jesus not know that he was in a foreign land??? The point is, he was still his father's son.
 

Jim Parker

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Is it your position that sinful hedonistic atheists get to live eternally in Hell in the same condition (lost) that they live in now?
You have avoided answering my question to you by asking another question.
Please be forthright and answer the question you were asked without attempting to evade stating your position.
Again: "I get the impression that you are promoting the doctrine of the annihilation of the wicked dead which is one of the heretical teachings of the 7th Day Adventist Church and their spin-off heretical sect, the Jehovah's Witnesses. Was that your intention?"
Please answer the question.
You've misunderstood the difference between the verb and participle forms and it's noun form.
Your ability to cut and paste from your favorite source does not make up for the error of inserting the heretical annihilation teaching of the JWs and SDAs into the text.
Are you a Jehovah's Witness or a Seventh Day Adventist?
And I have one more; why do no translations pick "lost" for the English translation of the final fate of the wicked in Hell?
Because those translators, unlike you and I, are extremely well qualified to translate from the original language into English in such a manner as to convey the meaning of the writers. I do not have a PhD in ancient Biblical languages; do you? I have not made my life's work the translation of ancient Biblical texts into modern English; have you?
If you have not earned a PhD in the ancient Biblical languages and have not made translation your life's work then why do you presume to contradict those experts who have done so?
I can't say for sure but, it seems to me to be hubris.

iakov the meshuganeh
 
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Jim Parker

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Yes, that's my point about the word's scope of meaning from the verses Jim Parker posted. If they (the wicked/accursed humans) will be in the same state in Hell as they are in now, then where's the punishment?
NO ONE stated that the the estate of those in hell is the same as they are now.
Please do not misrepresent what I have said. Misrepresentation is a form of a lie.
If you haven't heard, that's a big "no-no" for a believer. (Rev 21:8)

iakov the meshuganeh
 

JLB

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While still far away, his father was still his Father.
Again, the prodigal son was lost.

Meaning he was dead to his father.

Meaning he was sinner in need of repentance.

A sinner that repents and turns to God through believing the Gospel is no longer lost.

You will never be able to change or redefine what little st means.

Unbelievers are lost.
Believers who wander from Christ are lost.

If a brother in Christ who wanders from the truth is lost, and needs someone to turn him back or his soul will perish.


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


  • Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.
  • if anyone among you wanders from the truth; again anyone among you refers to Christian brothers.
  • wanders from the truth; Jesus Christ is the truth. The Gospel of the kingdom.
  • let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;
The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, or be lost; lose their soul in eternal death.


JLB
 

JLB

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While still far away, his father was still his Father.


You sure???

Luke 15:14 And after he had spent everything, there was a severe famine throughout that country, and he began to be in need.

Who creates severe famines on your view?

Ezekiel 14:13 “Son of man, when a land sins against me by acting very unfaithfully, then I will stretch out my hand against it, and I will break for it the supply of food, and I will send against it famine, and I will cut it off, both human and animal.

And the rest of the story:
it ends just like the prodigal son story does

Ezekiel 36:22-29 “Therefore thus say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Not for your sake am I about to act, house of Israel, but for my holy name, which you defiled among the nations to which you went. And I will consecrate my great name, which was profaned among the nations and which you have profaned in the midst of them, and the nations will know that I am Yahweh!”’ a declaration of the Lord Yahweh, when I show myself holy before their eyes. “‘And I will take you from the nations, and I will gather you from all of the lands, and I will bring you to your land. And I will sprinkle on you pure water, and you will be clean from all of your uncleanness, and I will cleanse you from all of your idols. And I will give a new heart to you, and a new spirit I will give into your inner parts, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh, and I will give to you a heart of flesh. And I will give my spirit into your inner parts, and I will make it so that you will go in my rules, and my regulations you will remember, and you will do them. And you will dwell in the land that I gave to your ancestors, and you will be to me as a people, and I will be to you as God. And I will save you from all of your uncleanness, and I will call to the grain, and I will cause it to increase, and I will not bring famine upon you.


Did Jesus not know that he was in a foreign land??? The point is, he was still his father's son.
Again, the prodigal son was lost, have returned to being a sinner.

Meaning he was dead to his father.


Angels who are sons of God can indeed be cast into hell.

.For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4


JLB
 

chessman

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I get the impression that you are promoting the doctrine of the annihilation of the wicked dead which is one of the heretical teachings of the 7th Day Adventist Church and their spin-off heretical sect, the Jehovah's Witnesses. Was that your intention?"
Your question is an assumptive question. It assumes God will not destroy both the body and soul of the wicked dead.

Are you a Jehovah's Witness or a Seventh Day Adventist?
No.

I do not have a PhD in ancient Biblical languages; do you?
No, I just quoted the meaning of the word from those that are. Have I made any statement that you can show is incorrect?

Are you familiar with the fallace of illegitimate totality transfer? (No PhD is required;

What does Illegitimate Totality Transfer mean? This is a big word in biblical interpretation with an easy definition. Illegitimate Totality Transfer simply means to illegitimately ( wrongly) transfer a word’s total possible meaning, with all its variations and nuances, and forcing them all into a particular context

http://www.empoweredbychrist.org/illegitimate-totality-transfer.html

I have not made my life's work the translation of ancient Biblical texts into modern English; have you?
No. Which is why I posted from reputable lexicon authority that have made it their life's work.

If you have not earned a PhD in the ancient Biblical languages and have not made translation your life's work then why do you presume to contradict those experts who have done so?
I've not contracted any expert.

NO ONE stated that the the estate of those in hell is the same as they are now.
I didn't say you did.

I just asked you a question.
 

wondering

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Again, the prodigal son was lost.

Meaning he was dead to his father.

Meaning he was sinner in need of repentance.

A sinner that repents and turns to God through believing the Gospel is no longer lost.

You will never be able to change or redefine what little st means.

Unbelievers are lost.
Believers who wander from Christ are lost.

If a brother in Christ who wanders from the truth is lost, and needs someone to turn him back or his soul will perish.


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


  • Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.
  • if anyone among you wanders from the truth; again anyone among you refers to Christian brothers.
  • wanders from the truth; Jesus Christ is the truth. The Gospel of the kingdom.
  • let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;
The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, or be lost; lose their soul in eternal death.


JLB
Hi JLB

When you say a person could be lost by wandering from the truth,
What exactly do you mean?

There are some truths that can lead either TO or AWAY from salvation,
And some " truths " that are only doctrine and do not lead to either salvation or loss of salvation.
 

JLB

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Hi JLB

When you say a person could be lost by wandering from the truth,
What exactly do you mean?

There are some truths that can lead either TO or AWAY from salvation,
And some " truths " that are only doctrine and do not lead to either salvation or loss of salvation.
  • Wandering from Jesus who is the truth.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

  • Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth

I try to be careful to use biblical phrases when discussing doctrine that tends to be controversial.

The controversy arises when people try to redefine the meaning of biblical words or phrases.

Example:

If a person understands that a sheep can become lost, then that is the end of the OSAS doctrine, which is man-made.

It's the beginning and end of the discussion.


To me there is no controversy to this subject.


Paul warned about these type of people who would infiltrate among the brethren, and cause people to depart from the faith.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

Can someone depart from the faith in Christ and still be saved?


Peter warns us as well of those who will twist the scriptures.

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. 2 Peter 3:14-18


Key phrases:

  • which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
  • since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;


JLB
 

Jim Parker

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Your question is an assumptive question. It assumes God will not destroy both the body and soul of the wicked dead.
And, once again, you dodge the question.
Why won't you just answer the question?
Do you or do you not accept the JHW/SDA heretical teaching of the annihilation of the wicked dead?
It's a "Yes or No" answer.
So, please do not answer with another question or otherwise evade answering.
Have I made any statement that you can show is incorrect?
You are advocating the heretical JW/SDA teaching of the annihilation of the wicked dead. (Though you go to great lengths to avoid stating as much.)
 

wondering

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  • Wandering from Jesus who is the truth.
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

  • Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth

I try to be careful to use biblical phrases when discussing doctrine that tends to be controversial.

The controversy arises when people try to redefine the meaning of biblical words or phrases.

Example:

If a person understands that a sheep can become lost, then that is the end of the OSAS doctrine, which is man-made.

It's the beginning and end of the discussion.


To me there is no controversy to this subject.


Paul warned about these type of people who would infiltrate among the brethren, and cause people to depart from the faith.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

Can someone depart from the faith in Christ and still be saved?


Peter warns us as well of those who will twist the scriptures.

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. 2 Peter 3:14-18


Key phrases:

  • which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
  • since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
I agree, of course.
Wandering from THE truth will definitely bring to loss of salvation.
Or even other truths that must be believed to be able to be called Christian.
For instance the Decalogue. The Trinty. Jesus is God.

There is some doctrine that can or cannot be believed and it would not cause loss of salvation...
For instance..
Matters regarding the end of times...rapture, etc.
What happens immediately after death.
Beliefs regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit....I could not believe in tongues but still be saved.
I do, BTW, just an example.

This is why I say that Jesus saves us and not doctrine.
John 6:29[/QUOTE]
 

JLB

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I agree, of course.
Wandering from THE truth will definitely bring to loss of salvation.
Or even other truths that must be believed to be able to be called Christian.
For instance the Decalogue. The Trinty. Jesus is God.

There is some doctrine that can or cannot be believed and it would not cause loss of salvation...
For instance..
Matters regarding the end of times...rapture, etc.
What happens immediately after death.
Beliefs regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit....I could not believe in tongues but still be saved.
I do, BTW, just an example.

This is why I say that Jesus saves us and not doctrine.
John 6:29
:salute :agreed
 

Angel Water

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Jesus saves not doctrine?
Isn't it doctrine that is the launching point for those arguing if we don't follow doctrine we can lose our salvation?
God saves through his grace. Having faith in Jesus brings us into the grace God created for those whom he called to find.
 

Jim Parker

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Jesus saves not doctrine?
Isn't it doctrine that is the launching point for those arguing if we don't follow doctrine we can lose our salvation?
God saves through his grace. Having faith in Jesus brings us into the grace God created for those whom he called to find.
Uh...Trump is not your enemy and he doesn't hate you.
 

wondering

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Jesus saves not doctrine?
Isn't it doctrine that is the launching point for those arguing if we don't follow doctrine we can lose our salvation?
God saves through his grace. Having faith in Jesus brings us into the grace God created for those whom he called to find.
Churches will have some doctrine that MUST BE BELIEVED.
Then they list doctrine that is not necessary for salvation.

IF doctrine saved and NOT Jesus, we'd be in much trouble since we all believe slightly different doctrine or totally different doctrine. We'd then have to have some super intelligen theologians who would have to figure out WHO IS RIGHT, and then we'd be forced to all FOLLOW THEIR TEACHING.

(Maybe this wouldn't be a bad idea !)

Then there's doctrine that in and of itself may not cause loss of salvation, but it can LEAD to loss. I'm thinking of Calvinism. One could believe God chooses who goes to hell and still be saved, but this doctrine could definitely lead to loss due to the eternal security idea. Too much to get into.

Then again, regarding Cavinism, it mght actually be blaspheming the Holy Spirit to attribute to God such AN UNGODLY CHARACHTER...I'd have to think about this a minute --- never did before.

Do you think believing in annihilism would lead to loss of salvation?

P.S. I understand your signature line because you explained it, but, as you see, many will misunderstand it...
 

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