What events in the Bible did not actually occur?

[GodsGrace]

I feel that the concept of time, in heaven, to God, is disregarded.
As we know that some are "under the altar", (Rev 6:9), and Enoch went somewhere..."God took Him", (Gen 5:24), and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob "live", (Matt 22:32), I cannot believe in a waiting place for those who have passed before us.
They are in the grave till the day Christ returns. (John 11:24)
I don't buy the concept of purgatory and limbo.

This came to mind Hopeful:

John 11:24 is speaking of how Lazarus will rise in the resurrection.

Don't you believe that by "resurrection" scripture is referring to when we receive
our glorified bodies at the end of the world?

IOW,,, we go to be where we belong at death (heaven or the other place)
but we are resurrected...receive our glorified bodies at the end.

 

[Quantrill]

I don't much like the idea that Adam ate because he thought it would be OK.
After all, God spoke to HIM...and the covenant was made with him.

Adam is a figure of Christ...OK.
Christ bore the sin for the whole world and not only His bride....but OK.
So you're saying that Adam made a known sacrifice to be able to follow Eve in her destiny?
(he surely understood better than Eve that there might be consequences---God told him
if he ate he would surely die.)

But you say above that Eve was doomed and that's why Adam ate.
But she would have been doomed anyway----
Why was this such a dangerous position for her?
I highlighted your words in your post above.

Eve was doomed unless her head, Adam, did what he did.

God created Adam and Eve in order to create a whole race of sons. Adam unfallen could have said, 'get me another woman'. The human race had not fallen in Eve.

I am saying Adam chose to fall with Eve...because he loved Eve. And I believe he knew he could have asked God for another. But he didn't want another. He wanted her. So, like Christ gave Himself for His bride, the Church, so Adam gave himself for Eve.

Eve was not doomed...if Adam did what he did. Otherwise, she was.

Quantrill

 

[Hopeful]

I never mentioned purgatory or limbo.
Do you believe in soul sleep then?

I am not familiar with that doctrine. Perhaps by some other name...maybe.

What I stated is not my idea but is accepted by at least two
denominations that I know of.

Before I can accept any domination's theories I need to ask them if they believe a man can walk on the earth as a non-sinner.
I can't accept information from sinners.

I don't think this is particularly important....but what do you make of
Hebrews 9:27
27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Men die, and they will be judged...but there is no indicator of how much time elapses waiting for that judgement...in earth time.

I believe that when we die we go immediately to be with God.
2 corinthians 5:6
6Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord

Immediately indeed, in God's eyes. But we won't realize the immediacy of that event till we are raised at the return of Christ. (John 11:24)
Hence my disbelief in a purgatory or any other waiting place for the dead.

 

[Hopeful]

This came to mind Hopeful:
John 11:24 is speaking of how Lazarus will rise in the resurrection.

Don't you believe that by "resurrection" scripture is referring to when we receive
our glorified bodies at the end of the world?

As one who thinks he will be in the grave for a while before the return of the Lord with his flaming angels, and my being raised to meet Him in the air, (1 Thes 4:17), I've always thought I would be the same height, weight, hair color, etc. as when I died. Only later to be given my new "mansion".
It may seem to us to be a series of steps, raised, meet the Lord, judgement, new vessel-or lake of fire, but to God it may seem instantaneous.
It matters from whose perspective we speak of these things.

IOW,,, we go to be where we belong at death (heaven or the other place)
but we are resurrected...receive our glorified bodies at the end.

This topic is something I have never really considered, much less studied out.
But the aforementioned theory means we will be in heaven with our old bodies between death and return of the Lord Jesus.
That doesn't sound right to me.

 

[Hopeful]

Eve was doomed unless her head, Adam, did what he did.

God created Adam and Eve in order to create a whole race of sons. Adam unfallen could have said, 'get me another woman'. The human race had not fallen in Eve.

I am saying Adam chose to fall with Eve...because he loved Eve. And I believe he knew he could have asked God for another. But he didn't want another. He wanted her. So, like Christ gave Himself for His bride, the Church, so Adam gave himself for Eve.

Eve was not doomed...if Adam did what he did. Otherwise, she was.

Quantrill

She was aware of God's warning about eating from the tree, so would be doomed with or without Adam's disobedience too.

 

[Edward]

This topic is something I have never really considered, much less studied out.
But the aforementioned theory means we will be in heaven with our old bodies between death and return of the Lord Jesus.
That doesn't sound right to me.

I thought that sounded a little goofy at first but I came to understand that it is probably the case. Scripture says that those who remain until the coming of the Lord shall not precede those who have fallen asleep I believe that, that is explaining that we all will be changed in the twinkling of an eye when He returns. That is when we all will be transformed and receive our glorified bodies. So those who have fallen asleep and went to heaven, they are not there in the flesh, but have not yet been given a glorified body. I don't know exactly in what state they are in now and until the Lord returns, but may be just in spirit or some other temporary measure to allow them to be present there but in a per-transformed state.

...I think.

 

[Quantrill]

She was aware of God's warning about eating from the tree, so would be doomed with or without Adam's disobedience too.

That is not the point of what I said.

Eve was in the most dangerous position a human ever was. She was fallen and her head, Adam, was not. The human race was not yet fallen. Only Eve. Her death sentence would not affect the human race.

Adam could go on and have God make him another woman. Sin doesn't enter the human race and all is well in the Garden of Eden with Adam and his new wife and their children who are sons of God.

This is why Eve was in a terrible position.

Quantrill

 

[GodsGrace]

Eve was doomed unless her head, Adam, did what he did.

God created Adam and Eve in order to create a whole race of sons. Adam unfallen could have said, 'get me another woman'. The human race had not fallen in Eve.

I am saying Adam chose to fall with Eve...because he loved Eve. And I believe he knew he could have asked God for another. But he didn't want another. He wanted her. So, like Christ gave Himself for His bride, the Church, so Adam gave himself for Eve.

Eve was not doomed...if Adam did what he did. Otherwise, she was.

Quantrill

Very clear explanation.
Thanks.
Yes, I have heard of this before...it's an accepted theory.
You explained it well.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am not familiar with that doctrine. Perhaps by some other name...maybe.

Before I can accept any domination's theories I need to ask them if they believe a man can walk on the earth as a non-sinner.
I can't accept information from sinners.

Men die, and they will be judged...but there is no indicator of how much time elapses waiting for that judgement...in earth time.

Immediately indeed, in God's eyes. But we won't realize the immediacy of that event till we are raised at the return of Christ. (John 11:24)
Hence my disbelief in a purgatory or any other waiting place for the dead.

Hi Hopeful....
First let me make clear that I don't believe there is any waiting place for the dead.
I was referring to BEFORE the cross...everyone that dies now goes straight to heaven.

What you believe is called soul sleep.
The O.T. will sometimes refer to persons being in the earth (in a grave).
The idea of an after-life was not well-developed in the O.T.
The Pharisees, for example believed in an after-life; the Sadducees did not.

I believe the SDA believe in soul sleep.
This is the belief that a person dies and has to wait to be resurrected at the end of the world.
(when Jesus returns).

The problem with soul sleep is that we have a soul that is active and a spirit that is active.
Our body dies but our soul remains alive as does our spirit.

You posted John 11:24
What about John 11:25?
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

This was Jesus' answer to Martha speaking about the resurrection on the last day.
Jesus tells her that whoever believes in Him will never die.

 

[GodsGrace]

As one who thinks he will be in the grave for a while before the return of the Lord with his flaming angels, and my being raised to meet Him in the air, (1 Thes 4:17), I've always thought I would be the same height, weight, hair color, etc. as when I died. Only later to be given my new "mansion".
It may seem to us to be a series of steps, raised, meet the Lord, judgement, new vessel-or lake of fire, but to God it may seem instantaneous.
It matters from whose perspective we speak of these things.

This topic is something I have never really considered, much less studied out.
But the aforementioned theory means we will be in heaven with our old bodies between death and return of the Lord Jesus.
That doesn't sound right to me.

Our old bodies will not be in heaven between the time when we die and when Jesus returns.
Our old bodies will be buried somewhere.
Our soul and spirit go to be with God.
Our body, in a glorified state, will be given to us when Jesus returns.
If you remember, Jesus had a glorified body after the resurrection.
Also, please remember that even Moses was alive at the transfiguration, and Elijah.
Something to think about....

 

[Quantrill]

Very clear explanation.
Thanks.
Yes, I have heard of this before...it's an accepted theory.
You explained it well.

You're quite welcome.

Quantrill

 

[Hopeful]

I thought that sounded a little goofy at first but I came to understand that it is probably the case. Scripture says that those who remain until the coming of the Lord shall not precede those who have fallen asleep I believe that, that is explaining that we all will be changed in the twinkling of an eye when He returns. That is when we all will be transformed and receive our glorified bodies. So those who have fallen asleep and went to heaven, they are not there in the flesh, but have not yet been given a glorified body. I don't know exactly in what state they are in now and until the Lord returns, but may be just in spirit or some other temporary measure to allow them to be present there but in a per-transformed state.

...I think.

Do you feel that those who have "fallen asleep" while in sin, are in heaven?
Will they enjoy heaven until they are not found in the book of life?
That doesn't sound likely.
Eph. 2:6 says..."And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
Those "in Christ" will still be "in Christ" after the demise of this vessel, awaiting our new vessels.
Not "bodily" as we understand bodies, but in Spirit.
The new body comes later.
Remember, the eternal life of the holy has already started !!!
Vessel not withstanding.

 

[Hopeful]

That is not the point of what I said.

Eve was in the most dangerous position a human ever was. She was fallen and her head, Adam, was not. The human race was not yet fallen. Only Eve. Her death sentence would not affect the human race.

Adam could go on and have God make him another woman. Sin doesn't enter the human race and all is well in the Garden of Eden with Adam and his new wife and their children who are sons of God.

This is why Eve was in a terrible position.

Quantrill

Yes, that is the other side of the coin, so to speak.
IMHO, Both of them were...dummies.

 

[Hopeful]

Hi Hopeful....
First let me make clear that I don't believe there is any waiting place for the dead.
I was referring to BEFORE the cross...everyone that dies now goes straight to heaven.

Sinners too?
Do they immediately go to the lake of fire?

What you believe is called soul sleep.
The O.T. will sometimes refer to persons being in the earth (in a grave).

I guess that is what I have always thought, being raised from the dead to meet Jesus in the air, at His return.

The Pharisees, for example believed in an after-life; the Sadducees did not.

That is such a major difference in theologies. I wonder how they could even sit in the same place with each other?

I believe the SDA believe in soul sleep.
This is the belief that a person dies and has to wait to be resurrected at the end of the world.
(when Jesus returns).
The problem with soul sleep is that we have a soul that is active and a spirit that is active.
Our body dies but our soul remains alive as does our spirit.

How do you know they are active?

You posted John 11:24
What about John 11:25?
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

This was Jesus' answer to Martha speaking about the resurrection on the last day.
Jesus tells her that whoever believes in Him will never die.

How does this idea sit with you....At rebirth we are "in Christ", and He is in us at our reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We are one, us in Him and Him in us.
Dead or alive, bodily, we are in each other.
So...
In Jude 1:14 it says..."And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,"...on the last day.
Those saints must have lived and died already, so were not in graves awaiting the day of Jesus' return but were always "seated in heavenly places with Christ". (Eph 2:6)

We exist apart from whatever vessel may be attributed to us.
The vessel lives and dies, but it doesn't really impact "us".

Just thinking out loud...

 

[Hopeful]

Our old bodies will not be in heaven between the time when we die and when Jesus returns.
Our old bodies will be buried somewhere.
Our soul and spirit go to be with God.
Our body, in a glorified state, will be given to us when Jesus returns.
If you remember, Jesus had a glorified body after the resurrection.
Also, please remember that even Moses was alive at the transfiguration, and Elijah.
Something to think about....

I can see that.

 

[Quantrill]

Yes, that is the other side of the coin, so to speak.
IMHO, Both of them were...dummies.

No has denied that Eve fell. And that is what you were saying.

I don't agree that Adam and Eve were dummies.

Quantrill

 

[Edward]

Do you feel that those who have "fallen asleep" while in sin, are in heaven?
Will they enjoy heaven until they are not found in the book of life?
That doesn't sound likely.
Eph. 2:6 says..."And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
Those "in Christ" will still be "in Christ" after the demise of this vessel, awaiting our new vessels.
Not "bodily" as we understand bodies, but in Spirit.
The new body comes later.
Remember, the eternal life of the holy has already started !!!
Vessel not withstanding.

No I do not feel that those who have fallen asleep in sin are in heaven. I was talking about the redeemed only.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sinners too?
Do they immediately go to the lake of fire?

No. The Lake of Fire is the last death.
There is physical death
Spiritual death
Eternal death

Those that are damned, including satan and his angels, go to the Lake of Fire
after the White Throne Judegment --- the last judgement.

NOW,,,after the cross,,,we go immediately to heaven because we have already been judged...
John 3:16-18

Our judgement in the last day, will be only for "crowns".

I guess that is what I have always thought, being raised from the dead to meet Jesus in the air, at His return.

That is such a major difference in theologies. I wonder how they could even sit in the same place with each other?

They weren't in the same place in Luke 16.
There was a great chasm between them and they could not cross over.

How do you know they are active?

If Moses and Elihah were "active" then it seems to me that we will be too.
A soul is either alive or dead...same for the spirit.
The spirit goes back to be with God....Ecclesiastes 12:7
Can the spirit be dead? It is the spirit that quickens us and makes us alive in Christ.

How does this idea sit with you....At rebirth we are "in Christ", and He is in us at our reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We are one, us in Him and Him in us.
Dead or alive, bodily, we are in each other.
So...
In Jude 1:14 it says..."And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,"...on the last day.
Those saints must have lived and died already, so were not in graves awaiting the day of Jesus' return but were always "seated in heavenly places with Christ". (Eph 2:6)

Good with the above.
If the saints return with Jesus,,,it means they are alive.
Their soul and spirit are alive...
their bodies are dead in the ground and awaiting resurrection.

We exist apart from whatever vessel may be attributed to us.
The vessel lives and dies, but it doesn't really impact "us".

Just thinking out loud...

Yes, I think you're right.
The "us" that you have in quotation marks must be our soul...
the thing that let's each one of us be "us"...individual from everyone else.
So the vessel lives and dies, but what it holds lives on until the last day
when we receive a glorified vessel.

 

[stovebolts]

Hopeful
I see that the Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus has sparked some interest in Abraham’s bosom.
We need to keep in mind that Jesus was talking to Jewish scholars and he used stories they were familiar with to make a point. Parables are just that, stories. They may be stories that have real people in them, or made up people in them. They may contain real world truth in them, or made up truths within them. One huge mistake many make is digging too deep into the details of any parable. Parables are told for a specific intent. Intent is what matters, not the details.

The Jews have other stories that depict the afterlife and Jesus was taping into those stories to make the point that the sons of Abraham would never let a beggar starve. Abraham was known for his hospitality. In this story, the rich man showed no hospitality. Thus, in the afterlife it is known that the rich man was not a son of Abraham.

Jesus later told a crowd, “If you were sons of Abraham, (If Abraham were your Father) you would do as Abraham did...

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful
I see that the Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus has sparked some interest in Abraham’s bosom.
We need to keep in mind that Jesus was talking to Jewish scholars and he used stories they were familiar with to make a point. Parables are just that, stories. They may be stories that have real people in them, or made up people in them. They may contain real world truth in them, or made up truths within them. One huge mistake many make is digging too deep into the details of any parable. Parables are told for a specific intent. Intent is what matters, not the details.

The Jews have other stories that depict the afterlife and Jesus was taping into those stories to make the point that the sons of Abraham would never let a beggar starve. Abraham was known for his hospitality. In this story, the rich man showed no hospitality. Thus, in the afterlife it is known that the rich man was not a son of Abraham.

Jesus later told a crowd, “If you were sons of Abraham, (If Abraham were your Father) you would do as Abraham did...

Agreed.
But not all of Abraham's children will be found worthy of eternal life.
It is the children of Isaac that are counted worthy of eternal life.

Can you provide the sources of the "other stories", so I may read them?