What is a man?

[Butch5]

Butch it’s a yes or no.

Your free to believe whatever you want.

I’m just trying to find out what you believe.


Do you believe in a literal hell with fire?


JLB

It's a yes or no question if I know what you're asking. There are three places translated as hell, Gehenna, Hades, and Tartartus. Which are asking about? I've already stated that Gehenna is the place of fire, it's the Lake of fire. Jesus said the wicked would be cast there. However, you keep quoting the verse from Lazarus and the Rich Man. That passage speaks of Hades, not Gehenna. I've already said probably a million times in this thread that Hades is the grave.

You're asking about hell with fire which is Gehenna but you're asking it while posting a passage that talks about Hades.

 

[JLB]

I've already said probably a million times in this thread that Hades is the grave.

Jesus calls it hell, and says the rich man was being tormented in the fire there.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:22-24

• And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments...

Do you believe that hell, the hell Jesus taught about here in these verses, is a literal place of torment and fire?



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

It's a parable.

This is your opinion and this would require a new thread.

Following are some reasons that this should be considered a history of two real men and not a parable.

1. Parables are true-to-life, but hypothetical, illustrative stories. The names of specific individuals are never given in them, but here the names of three men are given; Lazarus, Abraham, and Moses. Also mentioned are the “prophets” who were also real people. (“Moses and the prophets” is a general term for the whole Old Testament that refers to its human authors).
2. It does not have the normal form of a parable with an introduction, analogy story, and application. Instead it is in the form of the narration of a real-life story given for the purpose of illustration.
3. It does not use the principle of comparison in a way that is characteristic of parables.
4. The discussion between the rich man and Abraham is not consistent with the parabolic style found in the Scriptures.
5. It seems obvious that in relating this particular story when He did, the Lord Jesus was using a real-life account that many of those listening to Him that day could readily relate to it because they actually knew, or at least knew of, the two men involved. The rich man’s brothers may have even been in the audience.

source: https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/the-rich-man-and-lazarus-luke-1619-31/

The parable speaks of Lazarus and a rich man. The rich man is in the grave. He died and was buried. People are buried in graves. Jesus equates Hades and the grave. There are a lot of people in graves. The five brothers in verse 28 are alive.

You're reading what you believe into the passage.

As I've said many times---I do NOT make up my own beliefs...
see link and many more....

Please show me anywhere in this passage that speaks of the saved.
Where does it speak of believers? Verse 22
Where does it speak of the lost? Verse 24
Where does it say Lazarus was a believer, saved, or a righteous man? Verse 22
Where does it say that the rich man was an, unbeliever, lost, or wicked? Verse 24
Where did Jesus mention anything about this being a holding place for souls? Verses 26-31

You're interpretation of this passage isn't even consistent with what you believe. You believe that a believer is saved, correct, that they are the one's in Abraham's bosom. However, if we take your literal reading of this passage, that's not the case. With a literal reading we have to conclude that the poor go to Abraham's bosom and the rich go to hell. Do you believe that?

It's what the Jews believed....that the rich are blessed by God and the poor are cursed by God.
Jesus told this story to show them that this is not true.
I said this in a previous post....

Do you believe that if a person is poor they get saved and if their rich they go to hell? If that's the case then there isn't much hope for western society. Because by world standards even the poor in the west would be considered pretty well off.

already answered above.

Please, can you answer these questions and can you reconcile your belief with what we see that the poor man went to Abraham and the rich man went to hell.

Nicodemus was not poor.
Martha and Mary were not poor.
Joseph of Arimathia was not poor.

Again,,,you attribute to me beliefs that I do NOT have.

We get the same thing with this idea that Paradise is a place in Hades. There is nothing in Scripture that equate Paradise with Hades. This idea comes from people imposing their beliefs on the Bible. People believe that the dead live on so they misunderstand what Paradise is, then they misunderstand this passage about Lazarus and the rich man and conclude that in both instances the people died and were "supposedly" alive and that they went somewhere and since the one passage speaks of Paradise and the other Hades, that these two places must be the same. They're not. It's an idea that is created from the misunderstanding of the two passages, the conclusions of which are then conflated.

I've given enough support for my belief.

 

[GodsGrace]

What I explained above is logical and it fits perfectly with Scripture. What you've presented is someone's opinion. You can't prove what you posted. I don't think we
are going to make any headway because it seems you disagree with too many passages of Scripture.

You said,

"God does not breath into many anymore...He did this one time to give man life."

Scripture says,

Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: (Isa. 42:5 KJV)

Giveth, present tense.

You said,

"As we understand the spirit in the N.T.....it is the spirit of God, persons not born again do not have the spirit of God."

Scripture says,

Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: (Isa. 42:5 KJV)

And I, behold, I do bring the flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is in the earth shall die. (Gen. 6:17 ASV)
And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh wherein is the breath of life. (Gen. 7:15 ASV)

Then your verses above conflict with verses in the N.T. which I have posted.

Do you believe unsaved persons have the spirit of God dwelling in them?

 

[GodsGrace]

No, I'm saying the argument that many are using is.



I've not denied Hades. It is the grave.
I've not denied the Transfiguration. It was a vision.
I believe the words of Jesus. But, it's obvious to me when He's telling a story.
Moses wasn't alive because the Scriptures tell us that Moses died. Jesus tells us it was a vision. Peter tells us that it was Jesus' coming in power.



It means that death isn't the end.




Thanks! I did explain that in another post. Our bodies do have feelings. If you stub your toe you'll have feelings.

Eternal life is simple. It's the Resurrection.

You believe in annilationism.
I had to ask? You could have said this at page 1.
What more is there to discuss?

Your problem is not with body, soul, spirit...
your belief is that the saved go to be with God and
the unsaved just disappear.

I do not agree at all with this belief, but it is your prerogative.
Jesus spoke of hell many times....
but you can believe what you will.

However, I maintain that this belief of yours clouds other
biblical teachings....such as WHAT IS MAN.

Those that believe in annilationism do so because they cannot conceive of a God that would allow one to be tormented for eternity.

This is a belief YOU bring to scripture....this is not found in scripture and this thread is useless. We should have been discussing what it means to be destroyed....

But not today!

 

[Butch5]

Jesus calls it hell, and says the rich man was being tormented in the fire there.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:22-24

• And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments...

Do you believe that hell, the hell Jesus taught about here in these verses, is a literal place of torment and fire?



JLB

No, Jesus didn't call it hell, that's an English word. He called it Hades, and no Hades is not a place where people are tormented in fire. That's why you weren't able to post any passages saying that when I asked you to.

So far all of the passage you mentioned that contain both hell and fire are speaking of Gehenna. That is not Hades. Unless you can find something in Scripture that says people are tormented in Hades, you really don't have an argument. That's what I believe isn't really an argument.

However, if you want to know why the Rich Man is suffering in Hades instead of Gehenna here's why. It's a parable and Jesus is drawing from some OT passages . The parable was spoken to the Pharisees and Scribes, they were the leadership of Israel. The rich man was a Jew and the priesthood wore purple and fine linen. The rich man had five brothers. Levi, (the tribe of the priesthood) had five brothers. The rich man represents the leadership of Israel. Before Moses died he reiterated the Law to the Israelites. And he spoke of them turning away from God.

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1 (Deut. 32:22 KJV)

The word hell in this passage is the word Hades. So, what we see burning in Hades is God's anger at Israel. What we see in the parable is the leadership of Israel suffering God's anger.

 

[Butch5]

You believe in annilationism.
I had to ask? You could have said this at page 1.
What more is there to discuss?

Your problem is not with body, soul, spirit...
your belief is that the saved go to be with God and
the unsaved just disappear.

I do not agree at all with this belief, but it is your prerogative.
Jesus spoke of hell many times....
but you can believe what you will.

However, I maintain that this belief of yours clouds other
biblical teachings....such as WHAT IS MAN.

Those that believe in annilationism do so because they cannot conceive of a God that would allow one to be tormented for eternity.

This is a belief YOU bring to scripture....this is not found in scripture and this thread is useless. We should have been discussing what it means to be destroyed....

But not today!

Actually, you have it backwards. "What is a man" is a part of the study I did that came to the conclusion that man is annihilated.

Trying to claim annihilationism somehow negates what I said here doesn't work.

Also, It should have been abundantly clear that I believe in annihilationism from the OP. I mean, I said that man is a physical being infused with the breath of God which is God and not man. I said the only spirit in man is God's and I said that it returns to God when the man dies. I said the soul ceases to exist and the body returns to dust. How does one get anything other than annihilationism from that.

I don't have a problem with any of it. Anyone can read through my posts. I'm not adding to what the Scriptures say. I'm not contradicting what the Scriptures. When the Scriptures say so and so died, I don't have to add physically to make it fit my theology. When Mathew says Jesus only spoke in parables to the Jews, I don't have to say it's a different passage, to make it fit my theology. When Jesus says the rich man lifted up his eyes, I don't have the problem of trying to explain how the immaterial part of man has eyes, or how Lazarus has a finger. I don't have to try to explain how the rich man saw an immaterial Abraham and Lazarus. I don't have to try to explain why the rich man is in Hades when Jesus said it was Gehenna where the wicked would be burned. I don't to make claims that aren't in the passage to make it fit my theology. I don't have to claim it's a holding cell for souls, when the Bible says no such thing. I don't have to claim it's resting place for the saved, when the Bible says no such thing. I don't have to explain why the poor get saved and the rich go to hell.

No, I'm not the one with problems. I think I've made it pretty clear to anyone who really wants to understand the parable that there is a huge number of problems if one takes this parable as a literal event.

 

[Butch5]

Then your verses above conflict with verses in the N.T. which I have posted.

Do you believe unsaved persons have the spirit of God dwelling in them?

Or maybe your understanding of those passage is incorrect

 

[JLB]

No, Jesus didn't call it hell, that's an English word.

Butch we all know hell is sn English word.

What does it matter, Butch?

Jesus said the rich man was in hell, in hades, and that he was tormented in fire

• And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:22-24


If Jesus said this man was in hell, (hades) and was being tormented in fire, then I believe it.


Do you believe it?



JLB

 

[Butch5]

This is your opinion and this would require a new thread.

Following are some reasons that this should be considered a history of two real men and not a parable.

1. Parables are true-to-life, but hypothetical, illustrative stories. The names of specific individuals are never given in them, but here the names of three men are given; Lazarus, Abraham, and Moses. Also mentioned are the “prophets” who were also real people. (“Moses and the prophets” is a general term for the whole Old Testament that refers to its human authors).
2. It does not have the normal form of a parable with an introduction, analogy story, and application. Instead it is in the form of the narration of a real-life story given for the purpose of illustration.
3. It does not use the principle of comparison in a way that is characteristic of parables.
4. The discussion between the rich man and Abraham is not consistent with the parabolic style found in the Scriptures.
5. It seems obvious that in relating this particular story when He did, the Lord Jesus was using a real-life account that many of those listening to Him that day could readily relate to it because they actually knew, or at least knew of, the two men involved. The rich man’s brothers may have even been in the audience.

source: https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/the-rich-man-and-lazarus-luke-1619-31/

The first one is an arbitrary statement. Just because He used names doesn't change anything. The names are important to the story.
The second is wrong. It starts just like the parable before it, there was a certain rich
man.
Third is simply opinion.
The forth is opinion
The fifth he says, "it seems obvious" that's opinion.

Can you explain what these five points mean?

It's what the Jews believed....that the rich are blessed by God and the poor are cursed by God.
Jesus told this story to show them that this is not true.
I said this in a previous post....

You may want to reread that. Nowhere does Jesus say Lazarus was believer, saved, or righteous. Nowhere does Jesus say the rich man was an, unbeliever, lost, or wicked. Nowhere does Jesus say that it's a holding place for souls.

You just said you don't make up your beliefs and here you're trying to tell me this parables says these things that are clearly not stated.

I've given enough support for my belief.

That's classic. On page after page, you asked me to explain my beliefs and I pose a few questions to you and you don't want to answer. I think it's more a case of can't answer.

 

[Butch5]

Butch we all know hell is sn English word.

What does it matter, Butch?

Jesus said the rich man was in hell, in hades, and that he was tormented in fire

• And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:22-24


If Jesus said this man was in hell, (hades) and was being tormented in fire, then I believe it.


Do you believe it?



JLB

I already explained why it matters. Actually, Jesus didn't use the word fire. He said, this flame. And, it's flame singular, not flames, flame.

However, I believe whatever Jesus. I can tell when He's speaking a parable and when He's not

 

[GodsGrace]

The first one is an arbitrary statement. Just because He used names doesn't change anything. The names are important to the story.
The second is wrong. It starts just like the parable before it, there was a certain rich
man.
Third is simply opinion.
The forth is opinion
The fifth he says, "it seems obvious" that's opinion.

Can you explain what these five points mean?




You may want to reread that. Nowhere does Jesus say Lazarus was believer, saved, or righteous. Nowhere does Jesus say the rich man was an, unbeliever, lost, or wicked. Nowhere does Jesus say that it's a holding place for souls.

You just said you don't make up your beliefs and here you're trying to tell me this parables says these things that are clearly not stated.



That's classic. On page after page, you asked me to explain my beliefs and I pose a few questions to you and you don't want to answer. I think it's more a case of can't answer.

I've answered all your questions and now you've answered mine.
I guess this does it for me....
At last I know why we could never agree....
As to the soul....some believe it does die --- soul sleep.
I have never contradicted myself, the soul lives on.
It was an interesting conversation...the final result could have happened sooner...the word ANNIHIALISM clears up a lot.
See you in the next thread!

 

[JLB]

I already explained why it matters. Actually, Jesus didn't use the word fire. He said, this flame. And, it's flame singular, not flames, flame.

However, I believe whatever Jesus. I can tell when He's speaking a parable and when He's not

I already explained why it matters. Actually, Jesus didn't use the word fire. He said, this flame. And, it's flame singular, not flames, flame.

However, I believe whatever Jesus. I can tell when He's speaking a parable and when He's not

Ok Butch.


I see that you are continuing to dodge my question, so I will leave you with your beliefs.



JLB

 

[Butch5]

Ok Butch.


I see that you are continuing to dodge my question, so I will leave you with your beliefs.



JLB

I answered your question even though you didn't answer mine. It's in the first paragraph of post 306. I answered it, even though it has nothing to do with the parable. I find it interesting that you utter refused to specify whether you meant, Hades, Gehenna, or Tartarus. Why does it matter? I explained why it matters. The KJV translates all three of those places as hell. So, when you say hell I don't know which one you mean.

There are people who use this word to equivocate. Here is the definition of equivocate.

"use ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself"

It allows someone to keep from committing oneself. Hmmm.

 

[JLB]

No, Jesus didn't call it hell, that's an English word. He called it Hades, and no Hades is not a place where people are tormented in fire. That's why you weren't able to post any passages saying that when I asked you to.

Butch, I have posted this verse for you several times.


And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:22-24


Notice the word hell in this verse.

In the Greek it’s the word Hades, in English, the language my Bible is printed in, it plainly says hell.

Hell, Hades, is where the rich man ended up.

Jesus said the rich was in hell, hades, and was tormented in the flame.

Flame is a flame of fire.

If you don’t believe this then that’s your choice.

I have posted this verse several times.




JLB

 

[JLB]

So, when you say hell I don't know which one you mean.

By hell, as I have openly stated many times, I mean the hell Jesus referred to in the passage I quoted.

Hell, hades is a place of torment.


And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:22-24


The torment the rich man was experiencing came from a flame of fire.

I posted some other scriptures where this Greek word for flame is used.

Luk 16:24 - And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. G5395

Act 7:30 - And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame G5395 of fire in a bush.

2Th 1:8 - In flaming G5395 fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Heb 1:7 - And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame G5395 of fire.

Rev 1:14 - His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame G5395 of fire;

Rev 2:18 - And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame G5395 of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Rev 19:12 - His eyes were as a flame G5395 of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.



It’s very easy to see what Jesus meant by His words ...
tormented in this flame.



JLB

 

[Butch5]

Butch, I have posted this verse for you several times.


And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:22-24


Notice the word hell in this verse.

In the Greek it’s the word Hades, in English, the language my Bible is printed in, it plainly says hell.

Hell, Hades, is where the rich man ended up.

Jesus said the rich was in hell, hades, and was tormented in the flame.

Flame is a flame of fire.

If you don’t believe this then that’s your choice.

I have posted this verse several times.




JLB

As I said, I believe whatever Jesus said. I believe what Mathew said. He said that Jesus only spoke to the multitudes in parables.

I asked you to show me anywhere in Scripture were people were suffering in fire in Hades other than the passage in question. You gave me a few passages that spoke of Gehenna. The rich man was in Hades, not Gehenna. So you have one passage in all of Scripture that talks about someone burning is Hades. That's in a passage spoken by Jesus to the Pharisees. We are explicitly told that Jesus didn't talk to them except in parables. Yet, you want me to believe that this is an actual event about what happens after death. You want me to believe that dead people can talk and walk. You want me to believe that they can carry one a conversation when Scripture plainly states that the thoughts of man perish when he dies. The Bible says that the dead know nothing, but you wan;t me to believe that they can carry on a conversation.

Let me ask you this question, Did Jesus contradict the Old Testament? Jesus knew the Psalms. He knew that David wrote that the thoughts of the man perish at death. Is Jesus contradicting David. How could David say one's thoughts perish at death if in fact they don't, they live on somewhere else?

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:4 KJV)

Jesus knew that David wrote,

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. (Ps. 115:17 KJV)

According to David the dead can't praise the Lord. Notice where they go. To silence. You would have me to believe that this is not true. Even more to the point though, you would have Jesus disagreeing with this. David said they go to silence, but, if it's an actual event then it isn't silence, right? Was David wrong?

Solomon said,

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(Eccl. 9:5 KJV)

He says the dead know nothing. But, If as you suggest Lazarus and the rich man is an actual event, then Solomon was wrong. You would have Jesus and Solomon in opposition to one another.

 

[Butch5]

By hell, as I have openly stated many times, I mean the hell Jesus referred to in the passage I quoted.

Hell, hades is a place of torment.


And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:22-24


The torment the rich man was experiencing came from a flame of fire.

I posted some other scriptures where this Greek word for flame is used.

Jesus referred to Hades in that passage. The rich man was tormented if the passage is an actual event. If it's a parable then no one actually suffered since it's just a story. I have supplied an overwhelming amount of evidence for why this should be considered a parable and not a literal event.

Luk 16:24 - And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. G5395

Act 7:30 - And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame G5395 of fire in a bush.

2Th 1:8 - In flaming G5395 fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Heb 1:7 - And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame G5395 of fire.

Rev 1:14 - His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame G5395 of fire;

Rev 2:18 - And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame G5395 of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Rev 19:12 - His eyes were as a flame G5395 of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.



It’s very easy to see what Jesus meant by His words ...
tormented in this flame.

JLB
[/QUOTE]

These passages have no bearing on the subject. None of them speak of Hades, except the passage in question about Lazarus. You can't use the passage in question to prove your point about the passage in question.

 

[JLB]

As I said, I believe whatever Jesus said. I believe what Mathew said. He said that Jesus only spoke to the multitudes in parables.

Is this a parable.

Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
“Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. Luke 16:14-18




JLB

 

[JLB]

. If it's a parable then no one actually suffered since it's just a story

Since Jesus mentioned specifically people and things they said, it’s certainly not a parable.


Hell, hades is real, it’s not some fictitious place.

Jesus words are true.



JLB