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What is a man?

JLB

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I haven't been shown that physically dead people can speak
Butch, Moses died.

Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
Matthew 17:1-3


Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.


This is what the scripture plainly says.


Moses appeared talking with Jesus.



JLB
 

JLB

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The spirit is God
Sorry Butch, the scriptures are clear.


The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16


The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1




JLB
 

Butch5

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If the spirit is God,,,,which you say He breathed into man to make man come alive...

Then does this mean that the unsaved person also has the spirit in him -- which is God?
All flesh
 

Butch5

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Butch, Moses died.

Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
Matthew 17:1-3


Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.


This is what the scripture plainly says.


Moses appeared talking with Jesus.

Yes, and Jesus plainly said it was a vision. And Peter plainly indicates that it's Jesus' second coming.

JLB
 

Butch5

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Sorry Butch, the scriptures are clear.


The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16


The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1




JLB
Yes, the breath of Life
 

Butch5

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On more time.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
(Lk. 24:37-40 KJV)

A spirit does not have flesh and bones. People have flesh and bones, thus people are not spirits.
 

JLB

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Yes, the breath of Life
The spirit of man is certainly not the breath of life.

The spirit of man was formed by God.

The spirit of man is not the Holy Spirit.


You are way off.



JLB
 

wondering

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We've been through this numerous times. It's explained in the op
A simple YES or NO would have taken up less space and been more clear.

An unsaved person CANNOT have the spirit of God in him.
This is impossible....
Romans 8:7-9
7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.


John 14:16-17
16“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.


If we all have the spirit of God in us..even unbelievers (all flesh) then WHO is John 14:16-17 speaking of?
It is the Holy Spirit...our helper and comforter....the convicter of sins and keeper of the truth....

But only the saved have the Holy Spirit....
 

Butch5

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The spirit of man is certainly not the breath of life.

The spirit of man was formed by God.

The spirit of man is not the Holy Spirit.


You are way off.



JLB
Why? Is it because you say so?
 

JLB

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Why? Is it because you say so?
Butch, I have shown you through many scriptures and the words of Jesus, you just keep denying them.


:shrug


Adios.
 

Butch5

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Butch, I have shown you through many scriptures and the words of Jesus, you just keep denying them.


:shrug


Adios.
You're shown several passages of Scripture and given "your understanding" of them while dismissing the evidemce that refutes "your understanding" of those passages.
 

WIP

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JLB said:
Butch, Moses died.

Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
Matthew 17:1-3

Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

This is what the scripture plainly says.

Moses appeared talking with Jesus.

JLB
Butch replied:
Yes, and Jesus plainly said it was a vision. And Peter plainly indicates that it's Jesus' second coming.
11 Now it happened, the day after, that He went into a city called Nain; and many of His disciples went with Him, and a large crowd.
12 And when He came near the gate of the city, behold, a dead man was being carried out, the only son of his mother; and she was a widow. And a large crowd from the city was with her.
13 When the Lord saw her, He had compassion on her and said to her, “Do not weep.”
14 Then He came and touched the open coffin, and those who carried him stood still. And He said, “Young man, I say to you, arise.”
15 So he who was dead sat up and began to speak. And He presented him to his mother.

Luke 7:11-15 NKJV

Here are more Scripture references of dead coming back to life.
  • 1 Kings 17:17-24, Elijah prays and a widow's dead son comes back to life.
  • 2 Kings 4:18-37, Elisha prayed and a Shunammite woman's dead son comes back to life.
  • 2 Kings 13:20-21, a dead man was thrown into the grave with Elisha and when his body touched the bones of Elisha he came back to life.
  • Luke 8:40-56, Jesus brings the dead daughter of Jairus back to life.
And of course we cannot forget Jesus Himself. Appearing and talking to many. These were not visions but actual flesh and bone events.
 

Butch5

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11 Now it happened, the day after, that He went into a city called Nain; and many of His disciples went with Him, and a large crowd.
12 And when He came near the gate of the city, behold, a dead man was being carried out, the only son of his mother; and she was a widow. And a large crowd from the city was with her.
13 When the Lord saw her, He had compassion on her and said to her, “Do not weep.”
14 Then He came and touched the open coffin, and those who carried him stood still. And He said, “Young man, I say to you, arise.”
15 So he who was dead sat up and began to speak. And He presented him to his mother.

Luke 7:11-15 NKJV

Here are more Scripture references of dead coming back to life.
  • 1 Kings 17:17-24, Elijah prays and a widow's dead son comes back to life.
  • 2 Kings 4:18-37, Elisha prayed and a Shunammite woman's dead son comes back to life.
  • 2 Kings 13:20-21, a dead man was thrown into the grave with Elisha and when his body touched the bones of Elisha he came back to life.
  • Luke 8:40-56, Jesus brings the dead daughter of Jairus back to life.
And of course we cannot forget Jesus Himself. Appearing and talking to many. These were not visions but actual flesh and bone events.
Hi WIP,
We're not debating whether the dead come back to life. I think we all agree on that. What we've been discussing is if the dead are alive between death and the resurrection.
 

Butch5

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Some say the story of the Transfiguration proves that dead people are alive. Does it? What did Jesus say about His second coming?

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (Mk. 13:26 KJV)

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (Lk. 21:27 KJV)


What did Jesus say before He took the disciples up on the Mount of Transfiguration?

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (Matt. 16:28 KJV)

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. (Mk. 9:1 KJV)


We see that Jesus said He would return with power and great glory. Before going up on the Mount of Transfiguration He said there were some there who would not die until they see the kingdom of God come with power. Several days later He took them up on the mount and they saw Jesus transfigured. Mathew and Mark say his clothes were white.

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. (Matt. 17:2 KJV)

3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. (Mk. 9:3 KJV)


The apostle John saw Jesus resurrected in Rev. 1. He said Jesus' hair was white as snow.

His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; (Rev. 1:14 KJV)

It appears that they saw Jesus in a resurrected state. Then we're told that Moses and Elijah appeared with Him. However, notice what Luke says,

And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. (Lk. 9:30-31 KJV)


Luke says that Moses and Elijah appeared in glory. What does that mean? What does it mean to be "in glory"? The apostle Paul tells us.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: (1 Cor. 15:42-43 KJV)

The body is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. So, to appear in glory means to appear in a resurrected state. Moses and Elijah didn't appear as disembodied beings, they appeared as men, resurrected men. This makes perfect sense as Peter suggested to Jesus that they make tabernacles for Him, Moses, and Elijah. If Peter thought he was seeing a ghost it's not likely he would have suggested making tabernacles for them.

Remember, Jesus had said that some of them wouldn't die until they saw the kingdom of God come with power. What did Jesus say of His return? He said that people would see Him coming in a cloud with power and great glory. What did the disciples see?

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. (Matt. 17:5-6 KJV)


So, in this event we see, power, a cloud, and great glory. That's what Jesus said about His coming. Then we see after the event that Jesus says to them,

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Matt. 17:9 KJV)

So Jesus calls what they saw a vision. Peter also wrote of this event later to his readers,

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. (2 Pet. 1:16-18 KJV)

Peter goes back to what Jesus said, before the event. Jesus said there were some there that wouldn't die until they saw the kingdom of God coming in power. He also said that the Son of Man would come on a cloud with power and great glory. Peter said that he made known the power and coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. He explains himself. He says how Jesus received glory from the Father. He tells how they heard the Father's voice from Heaven. He says they were eyewitnesses (of Christ's majesty, remember the kingdom coming in power) of these events when they were with Jesus on the holy mount. Where in Scripture were they with Jesus on a holy mount and heard God speak, "This is my beloved Son"? It was at the Transfiguration. So, Peter is letting us know that what happened on the mount was the second coming of Christ. It's only logical that the second coming couldn't happen before Jesus left from the first coming, Thus, the event could not have been an actual event. It had to be a vision just as Jesus said.

We also know that it couldn't have been a literal event because Moses and Elijah appeared in glory and according to Paul this is a reference to the resurrection. Moses and Elijah could not have actually been resurrected at that time because Jesus had not died yet and Paul said that Jesus was the first born from the dead. No one was resurrected to eternal life before Jesus. Well, Jesus' resurrection took place after the events that took place on the mount of Transfiguration.

So, were Moses and Elijah actually alive in the Transfiguration? No. It was a vision just as Jesus said. It was a vision of the second coming.
 

Edward

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So, were Moses and Elijah actually alive in the Transfiguration? No. It was a vision just as Jesus said. It was a vision of the second coming.
You don't think that was real? That Moses and Elijah were not really there talking to Jesus? But...God does not play games like that. Those men were really there and very much alive. Is anything too hard for God? Have you ever tried reading God's word as a little child instead of a professor? God is not the author of confusion and that is a fact, Brother.

I think you make much of this way more complicated than you need to.
 

Butch5

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You don't think that was real? That Moses and Elijah were not really there talking to Jesus? But...God does not play games like that. Those men were really there and very much alive. Is anything too hard for God? Have you ever tried reading God's word as a little child instead of a professor? God is not the author of confusion and that is a fact, Brother.

I think you make much of this way more complicated than you need to.
No, I don't think it was an actual event. I've shown how it couldn't be. Jesus said it was a vision and Peter indicates that it was the second coming. The second coming hasn't occured yet. Plus if it was an actual event it means that Moses and Elijah were resrrected before Jesus. However, Paul tells us that Jesus is the first born from the deas

I'm not the one making it complicated. Saying dead people are alive makes it complicated and confusing. The Bible tells us that people died, but then people are claiming that they're not dead. Who should I believe, the Bible or someone's opinion.
 

jerry63935

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This may require another thread. I get my understanding of what a person is from Genesis 2:7

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

I understand that man consists of the elements of the earth. That he is infused with God's breath or spirit, same word. I believe that this combination of the man and the breath of God became a living soul. So, a soul is the whole person, body and breath of God. The spirit or breath in man is not man but God's. And man is simply a flesh being. So, I don't believe that man is immortal. I believe that when a man dies, the breath or spirit that God put in the man returns to God because it is something of God. When the breath leaves the soul the soul ceases to exist as it consists of two things the breath of God and the body. When one part is gone the soul ceases. I believe the body returns to the dust. So, that means when a man is dead, he is dead. He's not in Heaven or being tormented somewhere. He's not in a state of limbo. He's dead.

wondering
Hebrews 9:27

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
 

jerry63935

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This may require another thread. I get my understanding of what a person is from Genesis 2:7

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

I understand that man consists of the elements of the earth. That he is infused with God's breath or spirit, same word. I believe that this combination of the man and the breath of God became a living soul. So, a soul is the whole person, body and breath of God. The spirit or breath in man is not man but God's. And man is simply a flesh being. So, I don't believe that man is immortal. I believe that when a man dies, the breath or spirit that God put in the man returns to God because it is something of God. When the breath leaves the soul the soul ceases to exist as it consists of two things the breath of God and the body. When one part is gone the soul ceases. I believe the body returns to the dust. So, that means when a man is dead, he is dead. He's not in Heaven or being tormented somewhere. He's not in a state of limbo. He's dead.

wondering
in luke 16


23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
 

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