What is a man?

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, we have a body that consists of the elements of the earth.

So this body, however it was made - probably the same elements as the earth - is our physical self. The skin, the organs, the hair, nails, etc.

When the body dies,,,it gets put under the dirt and turns back to what it was in Gen 2:7....from dirt you came and from dirt you shall return. The spirit, in your theology, goes to be with God.

So this brings up the question:
What is the spirit?
Does everyone have it or only the saved person?
If an unsaved person dies....what happens to his spirit?

I do want to make one comment...I have noticed that you use only the KJV....Do you accept other versions as authoratative? The reason I ask is because the KJV uses the term "a living soul"....other versions say "a living person" or " a living being". This will be important eventually.

 

[Butch5]

I don't believe it's a parable.
Theologians think that it's truth since Jesus used actual name.
He never used person's names when speaking in parables.

This will have to be discussed because it's one of the primary reasons that it is believed by most Christians that we go immediately to be where we belong.

I would submit that just using a name doesn't necessitate that it's literal. He could have used a name because the name was a part of the parable. Let me say at the beginning that I believe the parable is about the judgment of the Jewish leadership. Here's why I submit that it's parable. For one thing, the participants are said to be dead. If they're taking and moving they're not dead. However, we find that the parable is spoken to the Pharisees, not the disciples. Jesus was speaking to the Jewish leadership. The disciples had asked Jesus why He spoke to them in parables.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (Matt. 13:10-13 KJV)

Jesus spoke to the Jews in parables. Notice He says that seeing they see not and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. The point of the parable was that they not understand it. So Jesus was saying something that they wouldn't understand. It seems millions have had no problem understanding Lazarus and the Rich Man as a story about life after death, so, that's obviously not the intended meaning if the purpose was to say something they wouldn't understand.

Mathew also said that Jesus didn't speak to them except in parables. I think that pretty much tells us that it's a parable.

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: (Matt. 13:34 KJV)

Also, the details of the parable are telling. The rich man had five brothers, Levi, had five brothers. The priesthood came from the tribe of Levi. The rich man wore purple and fine linen. The priesthood wore purple and fine linen. Remember Jesus had told the Jews that they would see people coming from the east and west to sit down with Abraham in the Kingdom while they were cast out. What do we see here, Lazarus sitting down with Abraham while the the rich man, the Jew, was cast out.

There's a lot more to be said on this parable but I don't what to let it get to long. I believe Lazarus symbolizes Jesus and the reason Jesus gave the man is that Lazarus, is the Greek form of Eleazor which means, God help or God is my help. It's found in Isaiah's prophecy in chapter 50. Note that Jesus refers to being smitten. The parable says that dogs licked Lazarus' sores. Jesus referred to the Gentiles and dogs. Who received Jesus and who rejected Him? Lazarus was covered in sores. What happened before the crucifixion? Jesus was covered in sores.

As I said, there's a lot more that can said on this parable.

 

[Butch5]

So this body, however it was made - probably the same elements as the earth - is our physical self. The skin, the organs, the hair, nails, etc.

When the body dies,,,it gets put under the dirt and turns back to what it was in Gen 2:7....from dirt you came and from dirt you shall return. The spirit, in your theology, goes to be with God.

So this brings up the question:
What is the spirit?
Does everyone have it or only the saved person?
If an unsaved person dies....what happens to his spirit?

I do want to make one comment...I have noticed that you use only the KJV....Do you accept other versions as authoratative? The reason I ask is because the KJV uses the term "a living soul"....other versions say "a living person" or " a living being". This will be important eventually.

I use the KJV because it's not copyrighted in America. I do accept other versions as legitimate. Although I do believe there are errors in the translations. That they others use living person or being strengthens my point that the soul is a living being.

The spirit. The Greek and Hebrew words that are translated spirit all mean wind, or breath, breath is wind. The English word spirit is a figurative usage of these Greek and Hebrew words. So, when we see the word spirit we have to understand that it is a figure of speech. The English word spirit has a it's definition the idea of a disembodied living being. The Greek and Hebrew words do not have this meaning. This creates a problem when the English reader imposes this English definition on the Greek and Hebrew words.

The breath or spirit is something of God. It is not of man. God put this into Adam and this breath or spirit gave Adam life. When the man dies we are told that this breath of spirit, part of God, returns to Him and the man, the body returns to dust. This breath is in every living being, man and animal. Job tells us that if God were to retrieve it all flesh would die.

12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
13 Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?1
14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;1
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:12-15 KJV)

Solomon also tells us that man and animal all have this same breath.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.1
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?1 (Eccl. 3:18-21 KJV)

So, this breath or spirit of life is in all flesh. Paul tells us that God is giving life to all things. He uses the present tense to indicate that God is giving it, not gave it.

This breath or spirit is in everyone and upon death it returns to God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Butch5
Hi B,

You make good points but they would require a long reply.
Almost midnight here.
Have read all but will reply tomorrow morning.

I also use different versions, including the KJV.
I find that no one bible is perfect (only God is perfect!).
So a few are necessary.
'night.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5
Hi B,

You make good points but they would require a long reply.
Almost midnight here.
Have read all but will reply tomorrow morning.

I also use different versions, including the KJV.
I find that no one bible is perfect (only God is perfect!).
So a few are necessary.
'night.

Night! I can also give you a link to some videos that go into much more detail than I can on this forum if you'd like.

 

[Christ the King]

And it's wondering to the rescue, breaking it all down.

I thought Butch5 was saying it's all over when we die. But he's saying when we die we won't get judged immediately. Forgive me brother, i misunderstood you.

Now some passages from Revelation come to mind which I have always wondered about...

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:11-15

This supports what he believes and to be honest ive always wondered weather or not we get judged immediately as well. I don't think there is scripture that says we immediately go up when we die. Is there?

From the book of Daniel
At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:1-2

Daniel's short prophecy here matches John's prophecy in Revelation. The archangel Michael defeats the evil dragon. Then there is a period of unrest right before the mass judgement before the great white throne where John also describes the book of life. Our names need to be in that book if we are to avoid being thrown into the lake of fire.

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. John 1:18

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. John 3:13

Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. John 5:28-29

At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people. Matthew 27:51-53

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever .
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.
Isaiah 26:19

And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

There is strong scriptural evidence to support the view of Butch5 and his church.
I've certainly contemplated it before and now that I know my thought process has been explored by these guys I think it is probable, very probable indeed. It seems that no one had ever seen heaven then Jesus came, his death raised all the dead. And this is due to happen again when he returns

wondering, what scripture is there to support the view that we get judged straight away? Nothing comes to mind but maybe you know of some passages.

I can also give you a link to some videos that go into much more detail than I can on this forum if you'd like.

Yes please

 

[jasonc]

The 7th Day Adventists SDA....believe in soul sleep.
A person dies, body soul spirit
and is revived at the resurrection.

If I'm not mistaken...I think they're the only Christian denomination that believes this.

Luther believed in soul sleep .

 

[Christ the King]

Luther believed in soul sleep .

Soul sleep it's called...
Ok cos I had noticed evidence of this in those passages I quoted
What do u think?
Is there any clear verses that tell us we will be before God right after we die?

 

[jasonc]

Soul sleep it's called...
Ok cos I had noticed evidence of this in those passages I quoted
What do u think?
Is there any clear verses that tell us we will be before God right after we die?

For to be absent in body ,is to be present with Christ .

Not exactly soul sleep.

 

[Butch5]

For to be absent in body ,is to be present with Christ .

Not exactly soul sleep.

That's not exactly what it says. He doesn't use the word "is". He is expressing a desire, He said,

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:8 KJV)

This whole passage is about the Resurrection.

 

[Christ the King]

That's not exactly what it says. He doesn't use the word "is". He is expressing a desire, He said,

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:8 KJV)

This whole passage is about the Resurrection.

So is that what Sheol and Hades are?
A place where our souls sleep before the white throne judgement?

 

[jasonc]

That's not exactly what it says. He doesn't use the word "is". He is expressing a desire, He said,

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:8 KJV)

This whole passage is about the Resurrection.

No,its not the word present can't not be used in the future tense as translated ,Paul would Not be with Jesus ,he would be nothing,not existent,

That's soul sleep. I know that doctrine.

The graves opened up and the saints ministered to us ,at the time of the cross and death of Jesus.did they simply back to sleep?


Paul wouldn't say that if he clearly meant in the future,its plainly wrotten to be bodily absent but present with Christ,if Christ is not raised and in heaven on the throne,then where exactly is Paul since per your doctrine Paul isn't in heaven present with Christ ?

The status of the Lord being where is also revelant,he was the first to be raised by God.

 

[Butch5]

So is that what Sheol and Hades are?
A place where our souls sleep before the white throne judgement?

I don't believe in soul sleep. I believe that when someone dies they are dead. I believe that all will eventually be resurrected. Some given life and some cast into the Lake of Fire. I believe the Scriptures tell us that sheol and Hades are the grave.

 

[Susannah]

Man started out as a gleam in God's eyes. He became manifest to please God. He erred and God has been trying to straighten him out every since. When we die I have no idea what happens so I choose to quell my fear by believing in heaven where my loved ones wait.

 

[Butch5]

No,its not the word present can't not be used in the future tense as translated ,Paul would Not be with Jesus ,he would be nothing,not existent,

That's soul sleep. I know that doctrine.

The graves opened up and the saints ministered to us ,at the time of the cross and death of Jesus.did they simply back to sleep?


Paul wouldn't say that if he clearly meant in the future,its plainly wrotten to be bodily absent but present with Christ,if Christ is not raised and in heaven on the throne,then where exactly is Paul since per your doctrine Paul isn't in heaven present with Christ ?

The status of the Lord being where is also revelant,he was the first to be raised by God.

That whole passage is about the resurrection, not about what happens at death.
we know Paul didn't teach that people are immediately with Jesus at death from what he said in 1 Cor 15.

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
(1 Cor. 15:13-18 KJV)

Here Paul is talking about Christians who have died. He says of them, if there is no resurrection they had perished. He couldn't say that if they were with Jesus. The only hope he gives for these dead Christians is the Resurrection.

To answer your question Paul died. The breath returned to God and his body returned to dust.

 

[jasonc]

That whole passage is about the resurrection, not about what happens at death.
we know Paul didn't teach that people are immediately with Jesus at death from what he said in 1 Cor 15.

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
(1 Cor. 15:13-18 KJV)

Here Paul is talking about Christians who have died. He says of them, if there is no resurrection they had perished. He couldn't say that if they were with Jesus. The only hope he gives for these dead Christians is the Resurrection.

To answer your question Paul died. The breath returned to God and his body returned to dust.

No,.
What exactly was Moses?what exactly was Elijah in the transfiguration.

Also john sees a vision of men who were beheaded for the faith if they being washed in robes and are before the throne and not just them,how does the sleeping exactly worship ?

No bodily ressurection is mentioned .its during the tribulation this is said .

Revelation 7.

These are before the throne of God worshipping Him and its saying the were killed for their testimony in the tribulation .

Kinda hard to do that if there is no spirit in Heaven for you

 

[Butch5]

And it's wondering to the rescue, breaking it all down.

I thought Butch5 was saying it's all over when we die. But he's saying when we die we won't get judged immediately. Forgive me brother, i misunderstood you.

Now some passages from Revelation come to mind which I have always wondered about...

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:11-15

This supports what he believes and to be honest ive always wondered weather or not we get judged immediately as well. I don't think there is scripture that says we immediately go up when we die. Is there?

From the book of Daniel
At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:1-2

Daniel's short prophecy here matches John's prophecy in Revelation. The archangel Michael defeats the evil dragon. Then there is a period of unrest right before the mass judgement before the great white throne where John also describes the book of life. Our names need to be in that book if we are to avoid being thrown into the lake of fire.

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. John 1:18

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. John 3:13

Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. John 5:28-29

At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people. Matthew 27:51-53

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever .
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.
Isaiah 26:19

And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

There is strong scriptural evidence to support the view of Butch5 and his church.
I've certainly contemplated it before and now that I know my thought process has been explored by these guys I think it is probable, very probable indeed. It seems that no one had ever seen heaven then Jesus came, his death raised all the dead. And this is due to happen again when he returns

wondering, what scripture is there to support the view that we get judged straight away? Nothing comes to mind but maybe you know of some passages.



Yes please

No apologies necessary. I've misunderstood people too. It's not hard when there are so many posts and people saying different things.

I do believe that people will be resurrected. It's just that I don't believe that people are alive during the time between death and the resurrection. A lot of Christians hold to dualism which is the belief that man is a soul and/or spirit that can live apart from the body. Many who hold to the "Immortal Soul" doctrine believe that this soul and/or spirit never dies, but just the body dies. I don't hold this position. I believe that man is a single flesh being that is infused with the breath of life from God. This breath is what gives man life. The Scriptures also tell us that this breath or spirit, same word, gives man understanding. So, our ability to think and reason comes from the breath of life that God places in man to make him alive. I don't believe that this breath/spirit is anything of man, but rather is of God. So, when the Scriptures speak of man's breath/spirit or the breath/spirit in man I believe it is this breath of life from God that is being spoken of. I don't believe there is any other breath/spirit in man.

There is nothing in Scripture that says people go to Heaven when they die. There are a few passages that people think support this idea, but upon close examination it can be seen that they don't support the claim. I don't believe people got to Heaven at all. I believe that God will restore the earth and believers will spend eternity on this earth.

Here is the link. There is a series on the doctrine of man. It is quite lengthy and will take some time to go through. If you have any questions let me know I can probably answer them.

BBI Module 3

4Winds Fellowships

4windsfellowships.net

 

[Butch5]

No,.
What exactly was Moses?what exactly was Elijah in the transfiguration.

Also john sees a vision of men who were beheaded for the faith if they being washed in robes and are before the throne and not just them,how does the sleeping exactly worship ?

No bodily ressurection is mentioned .its during the tribulation this is said .

Revelation 7.

These are before the throne of God worshipping Him and its saying the were killed for their testimony in the tribulation .

Kinda hard to do that if there is no spirit in Heaven for you

If you read Mathew's account about the Transfiguration you'll see that Jesus called it a vision.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Matt. 17:9 KJV)

We also know that they were not really there because Peter tells us that what they saw was the second coming of Christ.

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. (2 Pet. 1:16-18 KJV)

They saw Jesus coming in power. That obviously didn't happen before He left the first time.

The passages from Revelation also have to be understood in context. Firstly Revelation is a book full of symbolism so we really need to make sure we are understanding what is literal and what is figurative. Concerning the Martyrs I would ask you, why are they under the altar? This detail is important to figuring out what this means.

 

[Edward]

For to be absent in body ,is to be present with Christ .

Not exactly soul sleep.

That is the way that I understand it. Were triune beings, spirit/soul and body with the body being only a temporary house for us to dwell in here on earth.

And to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. I do not believe in soul sleep. The Lord said I am not the God of the dead but the living. So to die in the flesh is just to depart from our "house" dwelling here and go to be with the Lord.

And if you think about it, we will have eternal life because we have been redeemed and saved by our Lord...so technically speaking...our eternity has already begun. We're just babes still. They say the first hundred years are the hardest, lol.

 

[Christ the King]

I look at the the verses that support the view that we will be before God when we die and to be honest, their not very strong. That quote "for to be absent in body ,is to be present with Christ" in 1 Cor 15 is probably the best one and it's not very convincing.

On the other had just look at all those passages I quoted in the 26th post of this thread. Not only are they convincing but they come from every part of the bible.

Add to that the problem of trying to explain what Sheol and Hades are, most Christian doctrines have heaven and hell and no other place.

Im not committing myself to any particular position on this topic anyway.
As with many other topics I view with uncertainty.

Butch5 i was hoping for a link to an explanation of this. You have given me a catalog of countless long sermons that would take a life time to watch... LoL... It's too much mate