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What is a man?

jerry63935

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You quoted my post but your point wasn't to me?
your mind is made up. if i was to post any more would get very point blank . scripture speaks for it self .if you disagree then so be it. a young man who i have knownmostall his life tried to tell me there was no God.i finally told him one of the 2 of us will find out if i am right...your free to believe how you want
 

Butch5

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your mind is made up. if i was to post any more would get very point blank . scripture speaks for it self .if you disagree then so be it. a young man who i have knownmostall his life tried to tell me there was no God.i finally told him one of the 2 of us will find out if i am right...your free to believe how you want
It's not a matter of my mind being made up. It's what the evidence shows
 

jasonc

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I am not into soul sleep or the contraposition but haven't been there. that doesn't imply the person who believes that denies the ressurection.
 

Butch5

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I am not into soul sleep or the contraposition but haven't been there. that doesn't imply the person who believes that denies the ressurection.
I didn't say anyone denied the resurrection
 

Edward

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No, I don't think it was an actual event. I've shown how it couldn't be. Jesus said it was a vision and Peter indicates that it was the second coming. The second coming hasn't occured yet. Plus if it was an actual event it means that Moses and Elijah were resrrected before Jesus. However, Paul tells us that Jesus is the first born from the deas

I'm not the one making it complicated. Saying dead people are alive makes it complicated and confusing. The Bible tells us that people died, but then people are claiming that they're not dead. Who should I believe, the Bible or someone's opinion.
Well what about Enoch then? Is he dead? It's appointed that man will die once...and another scripture says...Enoch was and then was not because God took him. So there's a dead body in heaven now? I think not.
 

Butch5

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Well what about Enoch then? Is he dead? It's appointed that man will die once...and another scripture says...Enoch was and then was not because God took him. So there's a dead body in heaven now? I think not.
No, Enoch isn't in heaven, no one is. Enoch died, Paul said so.
 

Edward

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No, Enoch isn't in heaven, no one is. Enoch died, Paul said so.
Well you misunderstood Paul then because he never said that. That's probably why you didn't post the scripture where you think he did.
 

JLB

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No, Enoch isn't in heaven, no one is. Enoch died, Paul said so.

Who are these?


After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
Revelation 7:9-17


So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8



  • We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.


Where is the Lord we are present with when we are absent from our body when we die?




JLB
 

Butch5

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Well you misunderstood Paul then because he never said that. That's probably why you didn't post the scripture where you think he did.
He never said that?

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.1
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.1
(Heb. 11:5-13 KJV)

Enoch was translated. It means he was put somewhere else. It seems God saved him from some life threatening event. However, he did die later as Paul notes.
 

Edward

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He never said that?

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.1
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.1
(Heb. 11:5-13 KJV)

Enoch was translated. It means he was put somewhere else. It seems God saved him from some life threatening event. However, he did die later as Paul notes.

I figured that you was thinking of this passage.
Ok, question. Can you not comprehend that in verse 5 that Enoch was specifically excluded from the following statements because God took him?

Paul clearly stated that Enoch did not see death, then that excludes Enoch from the statement, "These all died,"

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. ../

It does not really say that Enoch was taken to heaven, but God translated him somewhere. That's for sure.

If you come back with a brushoff of some inane rejection of this then kindly explain...if Enoch died, then what is meant by "he should not see death" and what that really means and why it is in there. ;)
 
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Butch5

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Who are these?


After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
Revelation 7:9-17


So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8



  • We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.


Where is the Lord we are present with when we are absent from our body when we die?




JLB
You just keep jumping from passage to passage without ever addressing the problems with what you claim. You've yet to address that your interpretation, especially of 2 Cor. 5 runs counter to what Paul said. He said of Christians who had died in Christ, if there is no resurrection they had perished. This is the exact opposite of what you claim.

Regarding Revelation 7, first, you need to establish that these are in Heaven.

Look at what John wrote.

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (Rev. 4:1 KJV)

So, John was seeing the future. The passage says that those are the ones who came out of the Tribulation. So, you need to prove that the Tribulation has already taken place. If you can't do that this passage doesn't give you any evidence. If the Tribulation is still in the future then you can't prove those people are there yet, if in fact they are in Heaven at all. It says they came out of the tribulation. Jesus said that immediately after the tribulation He would return, He's not here. If those people came out of the tribulation then Jesus should be here at the time this is taking place. He's not here.

Regarding 2 Cor. 5, look at the context. It's starts in chapter 4 and the context is the Resurrection. In this section Paul argues against the Greek hope of escaping the body and ascending into the heavens. In verse 1 he says,

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (2 Cor. 5:1 KJV)

So, he contrasts two bodies, one earthly or corruptible and one heavenly or incorruptible. He continues,

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

So, Paul desires to be clothed with the body from heaven. That's the incorruptible, resurrected body. He continues,

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. (2 Cor. 5:2-3 KJV)

Well look at that. Paul doesn't want to be without a body. He doesn't want to be found naked. That's the opposite of what you've claimed. He continues,

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (2 Cor. 5:4 KJV)

Not that the we would be unclothed. Paul doesn't want to be without a body, he doesn't want to be unclothed. He want's to be overclothed. The Greek word that is translated "clothed upon" literally means to put on over, like one would put a coat on over their clothes. So, Paul isn't wanting to divest himself of his body, he wants the heavenly body, the resurrected one, to swallow up the mortal one. Where else has Paul intimated this same idea?


51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Cor. 15:51-54 KJV)

Paul speaks of being changed when the trumpet sounds. When does the trumpet sound?

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.1 (Matt. 24:30-31 KJV)

The trumpet sounds when Christ returns and the resurrection takes place. So, we see that what Paul is referring to is the Resurrection. The passage where Paul talks of being changed is 1 Cor 15 the end of his first letter to the Corinthians. He picks up this topic again in his second letter. We see this same idea of mortality putting on immortality and corruption putting on incorruption, It's clear that he is again referring to the Resurrection. So we know that 2 Cor. 5 is referring to the resurrection and not the state of those who have died. He continues,

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(2 Cor. 5:6-8 KJV)

We know this passage is referring to the Resurrection and not a state of ghosts. So, what does he mean when he says, while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord? We won't be with the Lord until the Resurrection, so in this corruptible form we are absent from the Lord. When we put on the house from heaven, we will be with the Lord. However, there are few things to consider in this passage. One, the Greek word that is translated "absent" means to be away from one's people. The word translated "present" means to be with one's own people. So, these two words have to do with with going away or being with one's people. Who were Paul's people? They were the Christians. What did Paul call the Christians? The body of Christ. So, when Paul speaks of being absent from the body, He's referring to being away from his people, the body of Christ. So, absent from the body could easily be a reference to the church. This would make more sense since Paul clearly said earlier in the passage that he didn't want to be found naked, without a body. So, those who claim that this passage is talking about leaving the body as some kind of disembodied consciousness are clearly interpreting the passage counter to what the apostle believed and thus that interpretation cannot be right. We've already seen Paul state his belief on this in 1 Cor. 15 where he spoke of Christians who had died, He said if there is no resurrection then they had perished. This is exactly the opposite of what many claim 1 Cor. 5:6-8 is teaching.

There's another thing that those who hold that the dead are alive position overlook. They assume when they read that passage they would immediately be with the Lord. However, if one is dead when they die, they would have no knowledge of the passing of time. For them they would be alive one minute and the next thing they would know is being in the presence of the Lord. So, as to their consciousness, it would seem immediate even if many years had passed.

There are two passages that I see people use to try to support a doctrine where the passage they use actually is teaching the exact opposite of what they claim. This is one of them.
 

Butch5

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I figured that you was thinking of this passage.
Ok, question. Can you not comprehend that in verse 5 that Enoch was specifically excluded from the following statements because God took him?

Paul clearly stated that Enoch did not see death, then that excludes Enoch from the statement, "These all died,"

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. ../

It does not really say that Enoch was taken to heaven, but God translated him somewhere. That's for sure.

If you come back with a brushoff of some inane rejection of this then kindly explain...if Enoch died, then what is meant by "he should not see death" and what that really means and why it is in there. ;)
I did explain it. Firstly your claim that Enoch is excluded from Paul's statement is arbitrary, meaning it has no support. Paul said that Enoch was translated, literally transposed. He was placed somewhere else. The same thing happened to Phillip after he baptized the Eunuch. The same thing happened to Elijah when he was taken up in a chariot. Both of them were placed somewhere else. Paul says he was translated that he should not see death. Apparently his life was in danger and God put him somewhere else so that he wouldn't be killed. That doesn't mean he didn't die later like Phillip and Elijah did. Paul later says 'these all died'. So, after saying that Enoch was translated so that he wouldn't see death, he goes on to say that Enoch died.
 

Edward

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You just keep jumping from passage to passage without ever addressing the problems with what you claim. You've yet to address that your interpretation, especially of 2 Cor. 5 runs counter to what Paul said. He said of Christians who had died in Christ, if there is no resurrection they had perished. This is the exact opposite of what you claim.
See? Here you go again. You do not want to address what I have asked you. I don't address what you say is a problem with my view simply because therte isn't a problem with it and you wont even consider or reasonably respond to what anyone says to you. Rather you ignore a lot of things and get inane and say oh that's just your opinion...and then go on to give your opinion and lay it down like it is an established fact. That's weird brother.
 

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