What is a man?

[GodsGrace]

It seems that scriptures teach that when we die we are DEAD and the dead know nothing. Sometime after death, there will come a resurrection (John 5:28-30) where judgment followed by a judgment where some will be gifted with life under the reign of the Kingdom of God while others will be punished and destroyed with a second death from which there is no resurrection.

The JW and the SDA believe the above.
As I've said throughout this thread....one can believe that and I won't debate it beyond a certain point because it has nothing to do with your salvation or love for God.

I just don't understand how you could come to this belief from reading the teachings of Jesus and the N.T. writers.

Your referred to verse above is from the O.T. (not John 5) and I hope you know that the sadducees, for instance, did not believe in the afterlife.

What happens to us after death was not very clear in the O.T. and was not made clear until Jesus.

What in the N.T. would lead you to believe that we are unconscience after death?
And what happens to our soul?

 

[The Light]

I just don't understand how you could come to this belief from reading the teachings of Jesus and the N.T. writers.

Your referred to verse above is from the O.T. (not John 5) and I hope you know that the sadducees, for instance, did not believe in the afterlife.

Does the verse being from Ecclesiastes mean it's any less true than the verse in John which doesn't contradict it? Doesn't taking on the "whole council of God" require that the Old and New Testaments be harmonized?
It's not that the Sadducees didn't believe in an afterlife, for they believed in a concept of Sheol where the dead, "lived." What they didn't believe in was the resurrection.

 

[The Light]

What happens to us after death was not very clear in the O.T. and was not made clear until Jesus.

Job, Samuel's mother, and Solomon all described death as a "sleep" of sorts where there was nothing. What each said was that God would call and then the dead would be resurrected. The OT taught that there would be a resurrection of the dead, Mary and Martha echoed this in John when referencing Lazarus. That doctrine was pretty clear.

What in the N.T. would lead you to believe that we are unconscience after death?
And what happens to our soul?

Nothing in the NT to my knowledge leads to the opposite conclusion that there is consciousness in death so why assume that to be the case when it's never been established?
As for the soul, I understand it to be the person. I am my soul and my soul is me. They are one and they same and do not exist apart from one another. Once I cease being alive, I am no longer a living soul.

 

[GodsGrace]

Does the verse being from Ecclesiastes mean it's any less true than the verse in John which doesn't contradict it? Doesn't taking on the "whole council of God" require that the Old and New Testaments be harmonized?
It's not that the Sadducees didn't believe in an afterlife, for they believed in a concept of Sheol where the dead, "lived." What they didn't believe in was the resurrection.

Yes. It means it's less true.
God had not fully revealed Himself to mankind yet.
There was still much to come.

Are you saying you believe Job
more than you believe JESUS??

 

[The Light]

Are you saying you believe Job
more than you believe JESUS??

I believe them texts equally the same. They must be harmonized and understood TOGETHER as all are a part of the very same Word.

 

[GodsGrace]

Job, Samuel's mother, and Solomon all described death as a "sleep" of sorts where there was nothing. What each said was that God would call and then the dead would be resurrected. The OT taught that there would be a resurrection of the dead, Mary and Martha echoed this in John when referencing Lazarus. That doctrine was pretty clear.



Nothing in the NT to my knowledge leads to the opposite conclusion that there is consciousness in death so why assume that to be the case when it's never been established?
As for the soul, I understand it to be the person. I am my soul and my soul is me. They are one and they same and do not exist apart from one another. Once I cease being alive, I am no longer a living soul.

I hope you understand that Mary and Martha were from the O.T. times.

As to the teachings of the N.T.
What do you make of Jesus telling the thief that he would be in paradise that very day.
Luke 23:43

And Paul.....he'd rather be dead and be with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe them texts equally the same. They must be harmonized and understood TOGETHER as all are a part of the very same Word.

How do you reconcile them?

 

[The Light]

What do you make of Jesus telling the thief that he would be in paradise that very day.
Luke 23:43

A couple things. First, Jesus didn't go to Paradise that very day as Jesus later told Mary after his resurrection not to touch him for he had yet to gone to his father (John 20:17). The second point is that I can't say for certain what the writer's objective for say "Today" was. Did he mean that very day or was he simply saying that on that very day he was TELLING the thief he would be with Jesus in Paradise at some future time.

And Paul.....he'd rather be dead and be with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8

From 2 Corinthians 4:7 - 5:20, I honestly don't have a confident grasp. More study is needed on my part before I can give an answer I'm comfortable with. At this point, my response is "I'm not sure."

How do you reconcile them?

I feel they must be reconciled as in order for the scriptures to be true the entirety of the texts must harmonize and not contradict any others. My approach is to use scripture to interpret scripture while allowing for textual and historical context to influence my thinking as well.

 

[Edward]

Make it at least 2 men who think no............

There are all sorts of scriptures which speak of the spirit of man. Here, I'll find a few for you.

Proverbs 18:14
14 The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear? .../

Proverbs 20:27
27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.../

Romans 8:16
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:.../

Now in that verse from Romans 8, it actually talks about both, the Spirit of God and the spirit of man making it very clear that...man has a spirit too!
It's all scripture. Do we believe in the Word of God or don't we? It is true. Read about it and pray.

 

[The Light]

There are all sorts of scriptures which speak of the spirit of man.

I totally agree that many texts exist that mention the spirit of a man. What do those texts describe that spirit as is the question. What is this "spirit of a man?" Is it a way to describe a person's personality? Is it referenced as being able to life on after a person ceases to be alive? Is it described as eternal?

 

[Edward]

I totally agree that many texts exist that mention the spirit of a man. What do those texts describe that spirit as is the question. What is this "spirit of a man?" Is it a way to describe a person's personality? Is it referenced as being able to life on after a person ceases to be alive? Is it described as eternal?

Keeping in mind that, we are not human beings on a spiritual journey but rather spiritual beings on a human journey...as a human we are trinitarian beings, spirit-soul and body. Most believe, myself included, that the soul is the part of us that is our personality.

The word "spirit" is used to denote something different in Scripture, although both the Hebrew and Greek words translated "spirit" also have the concept of breath or wind at their roots. We understand the difference by looking at the context of the verses that refer to the spirit of man. Unlike the soul, which is alive both physically and eternally, the spirit can be either alive, as in the case of believers, (1 Peter 3:18), or dead as unbelievers are (Colossians 2:13; Ephesians 2:4-5). The spiritual part of believers in Jesus Christ is that which responds to the things that come from the Spirit of God, understanding and discerning them spiritually. The spiritually dead perceive the things of the Spirit to be "foolishness" because, in his spiritually dead conditions, he does not have the ability to discern the things of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:12-14). The spirit is that part of us that is enabled by God to know and worship Him, the part of humanity that "connects" with God, who Himself is Spirit (John 4:24). And scripture says that God's Spirit bears witness with our spirit. So God's Spirit is directly connected with us through our own spirit...and we don't get to listen in and hear it! But it is through our spirit that we worship God and have relationship with Him. And it is through our flesh body that we have relationship with the world.

He tells us in scripture to be led by the spirit and not the flesh. And to, worship Him in spirit and in truth and that seems very clear to me that there is no way the flesh can perceive Him, only our spirit can...so consequently...yes, man has to have a spirit. It is all there. Romans 8, John 14...

I'm learning how to tell my flesh man to shut up, from my spirit man.





Romans 8
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

 

[Edward]

I'm not positive, but I suspect that our conscience might be our spirit trying to tell us the right thing to do. Our spirit always know the right thing to do, because our spirit is in direct contact with God and His Spirit!

 

[GodsGrace]

A couple things. First, Jesus didn't go to Paradise that very day as Jesus later told Mary after his resurrection not to touch him for he had yet to gone to his father (John 20:17). The second point is that I can't say for certain what the writer's objective for say "Today" was. Did he mean that very day or was he simply saying that on that very day he was TELLING the thief he would be with Jesus in Paradise at some future time.

Hi Light,,,
I wonder if you know that paradise and heaven are believed to be two different places.
Heaven is where God is and where we go after death.
Paradise is a temporary place that is spoken of in the N.T.
Some call this place Hades....you'll find it in Luke 16:;19-31.
It was a temporary holding place where the lost went to hell and the saved went to be comforted in Abraham's Bossom until the resurrection of Jesus when "the prisoners" were released and then went to heaven. You could read up on this. I didn't know this for years.

So today did not mean heaven. Jesus did NOT go back to heaven until He ascended in Acts 1.
But Jesus DID GO to Hades, spoken of in Luke 16.
We cannot be sure what happened to Jesus after He died on the cross.
We can know for sure that He went to the lower parts of the earth....Hades....
and we can know for sure that He went to heaven at the ascension.
What happened between Friday at 3 pm and the bodily resurrection on Sunday morning, we cannot be sure of---except for what is said in the N.T.

Theologians do believe that Jesus meant THAT VERY DAY they would both be in Paradise.....or
Hades.

From 2 Corinthians 4:7 - 5:20, I honestly don't have a confident grasp. More study is needed on my part before I can give an answer I'm comfortable with. At this point, my response is "I'm not sure."

That's always a good answer.
Study up on it.
Paul means here that he'd rather be dead and with Jesus than alive.
Immediately with Jesus....

I feel they must be reconciled as in order for the scriptures to be true the entirety of the texts must harmonize and not contradict any others. My approach is to use scripture to interpret scripture while allowing for textual and historical context to influence my thinking as well.

This is a very good method.
Maybe you need to learn more about the O.T.?
Not everyone at that time believed in life after death.
This was clarified with Jesus.
Some writers of the O.T. believed that we just died....
Instead in some places,,,THEY SLEEP,,,just meant that they were physically dead.
It's a good study.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe them texts equally the same. They must be harmonized and understood TOGETHER as all are a part of the very same Word.

Good.
But they DO need to be harmonized.
When you have a choice, however, you always believe JESUS.
He was God's ULTIMATE revelation.

 

[The Light]

Paradise is a temporary place that is spoken of in the N.T.
Some call this place Hades....you'll find it in Luke 16:;19-31.
It was a temporary holding place where the lost went to hell and the saved went to be comforted in Abraham's Bossom until the resurrection of Jesus when "the prisoners" were released and then went to heaven. You could read up on this. I didn't know this for years.

I am very familiar with text passages you referenced, I just believe that Luke 16 was allegorical. This best reflects my understanding:

The Rich Man & Lazarus

As far as the story of Lazarus and the rich man, we must ask whether it was in any way intended to reveal to us information about the state of the dead, or was the parable used by Jesus for an entirely different purpose. Notice that Lazarus hadn’t really done anything righteous; his only virtue...

christianforums.net

 

[The Light]

Keeping in mind that, we are not human beings on a spiritual journey but rather spiritual beings on a human journey...as a human we are trinitarian beings, spirit-soul and body.

I see no evidence for this being the true reality. Both biblical and scientifically, the evidence points to us being physical creatures, living souls.

Unlike the soul, which is alive both physically and eternally,

What evidence suggests this?

The spirit is that part of us that is enabled by God to know and worship Him, the part of humanity that "connects" with God, who Himself is Spirit (John 4:24). And scripture says that God's Spirit bears witness with our spirit. So God's Spirit is directly connected with us through our own spirit

And this "spirit" is different from our consciousness how? The word spirit though attempted to be used as a descriptive term, seems to in actuality be a term that's used when w don't have the words or capacity to accurately describe something unseen like God or our own consciousness. Wind, breath, spirit, all refer to an unseen force, power, or influence and we use the term 'spirit' to designate that there is an UNKNOWN power that we can't accurately describe at work.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am very familiar with text passages you referenced, I just believe that Luke 16 was allegorical. This best reflects my understanding:

The Rich Man & Lazarus

As far as the story of Lazarus and the rich man, we must ask whether it was in any way intended to reveal to us information about the state of the dead, or was the parable used by Jesus for an entirely different purpose. Notice that Lazarus hadn’t really done anything righteous; his only virtue...

christianforums.net

You agree very much with Butch5
I can't debate this too much because you can believe this and still be saved.
Some of our beliefs MIGHT cause us to become lost.

As to Luke 16 being an allegory...
it is believed that Jesus was speaking about real persons and a real place.
He used person's names and described a place. This is unlike any of the parable He told.

However, I'm not here to convince you....

 

[The Light]

As to Luke 16 being an allegory...
it is believed that Jesus was speaking about real persons and a real place.
He used person's names and described a place. This is unlike any of the parable He told.

In Luke 16, if you pay attention to who Jesus' audience was, we see that it consisted of his disciples along with the Pharisees and scribes as well (Luke 15:2), and it is to them (the Pharisses) that he directs His reproof (Luke 16:14-15). Immediately after talking about them, Jesus begins with The Rich Man & Lazarus. That context provides the setting we should use to best understand what Jesus said. It's a context that is surrounded by other parables and it's a context that has Jesus addressing a group that he had warned time and again about losing what they believed was their birth right as children of Abraham and heirs to the Kingdom of God. That is the light under which Jesus is said to have delivered the story of The Rich Man & Lazarus. Notice that nowhere in the surrounding context is the subject death or the afterlife.

 

[GodsGrace]

In Luke 16, if you pay attention to who Jesus' audience was, we see that it consisted of his disciples along with the Pharisees and scribes as well (Luke 15:2), and it is to them (the Pharisses) that he directs His reproof (Luke 16:14-15). Immediately after talking about them, Jesus begins with The Rich Man & Lazarus. That context provides the setting we should use to best understand what Jesus said. It's a context that is surrounded by other parables and it's a context that has Jesus addressing a group that he had warned time and again about losing what they believed was their birth right as children of Abraham and heirs to the Kingdom of God. That is the light under which Jesus is said to have delivered the story of The Rich Man & Lazarus. Notice that nowhere in the surrounding context is the subject death or the afterlife.

The very story Jesus is telling is about death and the afterlife.

We don't really need context here because I'm not saying something different as to the topic Jesus was discussing.

Why do you think Jesus told that story? (or allegory to you).

 

[The Light]

Why do you think Jesus told that story? (or allegory to you).

As a warning to the Jewish leadership that their assumed favored position as Abraham's seed and heirs would be given to others and they would regret their wicked ways that brought about their fall from the favored position in "Abraham's Bosom."