What was Paul teaching in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[Nathan12]

In post #29 and 35 I gave the actual events in order that will happen before the second coming of Christ on the last day as what is already written. The order of the trumpets are from one to seven, Rev 8:6 - Rev chapter 22.

You said in post #29 "Again no scripture and now you are adding two tribulations!" How could I be "adding" two tribulations if the Bible speaks of "the Tribulation" (the time of Jacob's trouble) which corresponds to the first six trumpet judgments, and also "the Great Tribulation" (which corresponds to the 7th trumpet judgments). That is not "adding" but distinguishing between two series of events.

The only website I am using is that of the King James Bible, so I am not referring to what others may or may not be saying. I will however, quote appropriately from any source of information to support what is stated by myself. And I am using Scriptures to support everything, even if they are not being quoted.

As to your post #35, it was not even a response to what was being said about the Rapture.

I truly can not understand why pretribbers refuse to believe the answers Jesus gave to His disciples that day as they all sat on the mount of Olives.

Who says that pre-tribbers refuse to believe the Olivet Discourse? As a matter of fact they interpret these prophecies correctly. So let's have an example of this allegation.

 

[dianegcook]

This is hilarious, since the Church will be absent when the Antichrist takes control on earth!

I don't think it is funny.

 

[dianegcook]

And that is a different matter altogether. Christ presently comes to every believer and indwells every believer. Therefore Paul says "Christ in you the hope of glory". By no means does this cancel out the Bible doctrine of the Rapture of the Church, which again is distinct from the Second Coming of Christ.

We should try to put things in their proper context, since the Bible is not a textbook of Systematic Theology. You will note, particularly in the Prophets, that various events at different times are all presented as though they are all happening at the same time. That is why we need to discern what is written, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

That is why we need to discern what is written, I agree.
You can not take one verse and make a theory out if it.
The W's
Who, what, when and why.
Whom was He talking to..
What was the subject...
And so forth..

Regardless, if you think that verse proves the rapture, it doesn't say it will be before the tribulation, does it?

There are plenty of verses that state AFTER the tribulation, which you don't consider.

1Thess.4:16,17
Does not prove this happens before the tribulation.

1Cor.15:51,52
States the last trump, the furtherest out.
7th trump, Rev.11:15, this is AFTER the antichrist appears.

2Thess.2:3
Son of perdition be revealed first.

Matt.24:29
After the tribulation

Mark 13:24
After the tribulation

I don't know what to say to you to make you see.
That is up to God.

 

[Nathan12]

Regardless, if you think that verse proves the rapture, it doesn't say it will be before the tribulation, does it?

It does not have to. That passage also says "Let not your heart be troubled". and Paul always links the Rapture to comfort, not tribulation.

The Tribulation (the time of Jacob's trouble) will be primarily for unbelieving Jews, and many will be saved out of that. It is a part of God's wrath against the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Church.
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people [THE JEWS]: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book... Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. (Dan 12:1; Jer 30:7)

We already see in Scripture that God delivers the righteous from His wrath before He pours out His judgments (e.g. Enoch, Noah and his family, Lot and his family). God was even prepared to spare Sodom and Gomorrah if ten righteous people could be found in those wicked cities. At the same time Christians will have their trials, tribulations, and testings. Those are for the purification of the saints. But Christ bore God's wrath for us in Himself.

 

[ezra]

I don't think it is funny.

i am not a pre tribber at all but i dont see the church around when the anti christ has rule / i lean more toward mid trib even if i have stand by myself

 

[JLB]

This is hilarious, since the Church will be absent when the Antichrist takes control on earth!

The Church is gathered together at His coming.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 Thessalonians 2:1


The antichrist is destroyed at His coming.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8





JLB

 

[dianegcook]

It does not have to. That passage also says "Let not your heart be troubled". and Paul always links the Rapture to comfort, not tribulation.

The Tribulation (the time of Jacob's trouble) will be primarily for unbelieving Jews, and many will be saved out of that. It is a part of God's wrath against the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Church.
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people [THE JEWS]: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book... Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. (Dan 12:1; Jer 30:7)

We already see in Scripture that God delivers the righteous from His wrath before He pours out His judgments (e.g. Enoch, Noah and his family, Lot and his family). God was even prepared to spare Sodom and Gomorrah if ten righteous people could be found in those wicked cities. At the same time Christians will have their trials, tribulations, and testings. Those are for the purification of the saints. But Christ bore God's wrath for us in Himself.

God's wrath is not the tribulation, I believe it is Satan's wrath.
Rev.12:12
For the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he hath but a short time.
God's wrath will be poured when He returns.

Rev.11:15-18
The last trump..7th
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ.
And the nation's were angry, and THY WRATH is come.

Since you quoted Dan.12:1
Read Dan.12:2
The resurrection, after the Son of perdition is revealed, 2Thess.2:3

Dan.12:11,12
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE SET UP, there shall be 1290 days.

Blessed is he THAT WAITETH, and COMETH to the 1335 days.

Doesn't that prove we are still here during this time?

Noah was not raptured, Lot was not raptured, they were taken care of. Both remained on earth.

You quoted Jer.30:7
Read on...Jer.30:7-11
For it shall come to pass in that day, Saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him.

But they shall serve the the Lord their God, and David their King, whom I will raise up unto them.

Therefore fear thou not, O My servant Jacob, Saith the Lord, neither be dismayed, O Israel, for lo, I will save thee from afar, and they seed from the land of their captivity, and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

For I am with thee, Saith the Lord, to save thee,though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee, but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

 

[dianegcook]

i am not a pre tribber at all but i dont see the church around when the anti christ has rule / i lean more toward mid trib even if i have stand by myself

Bless your heart, I know how it is like ,to stand by myself. Lol
Eph.6:11-13
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able TO STAND against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities , against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able TO WITHSTAND IN THE EVIL DAY, and HAVING DONE ALL, TO STAND.

 

[Nathan12]

God's wrath is not the tribulation, I believe it is Satan's wrath.

If we understand that Satan is really an instrument in God's hand (as noted in the book of Job), and that God causes him and his evil angels to be cast down to earth [from the earth's atmosphere (also called "heaven") where he is "the prince of the power of the air"], then Satan's wrath is indeed how God brings His wrath against the unbelieving world at that time. At the same time the divine judgments of the first six trumpets of the 7th seal are manifested. So it is a combination of Satan's wrath and God's wrath. And it is God who ALLOWS Satan and the Antichrist the power that they receive, after which He unleashes His wrath against the Antichrist.

 

[ezra]

Bless your heart, I know how it is like ,to stand by myself. Lol
Eph.6:11-13
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able TO STAND against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities , against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able TO WITHSTAND IN THE EVIL DAY, and HAVING DONE ALL, TO STAND.

its not that i am %100 just because someone says they are correct..i dont jump

 

[dianegcook]

If we understand that Satan is really an instrument in God's hand (as noted in the book of Job), and that God causes him and his evil angels to be cast down to earth [from the earth's atmosphere (also called "heaven") where he is "the prince of the power of the air"], then Satan's wrath is indeed how God brings His wrath against the unbelieving world at that time. At the same time the divine judgments of the first six trumpets of the 7th seal are manifested. So it is a combination of Satan's wrath and God's wrath. And it is God who ALLOWS Satan and the Antichrist the power that they receive, after which He unleashes His wrath against the Antichrist.

The seals and the trumps are the same thing.
The seals are the knowledge of the trumps that are about to sound.
They are sealed in their forehead, mind, to recognize which trump is being sounded.
So they can wait on the true Christ.
As you can read, right before the 7th seal Rev.6:17
For the GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME, and who shall be able to STAND.
The 7th seal is when the trumps sound. Rev.8:, 1,2

Which the 7th trump sounds ,it lines up with the seals in Rev.11:15-18
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and , and of His Christ.....
And the nation's were angry, and THY WRATH IS COME.
Hope you get what I am saying...

In Mark 13:9-13
Says you will be delivered up for My SAKE, for a Testimony against them. It states do not premeditate beforehand what ye shall speak, it is the Holy Spirit that shall speak.
This isn't unbelievers.

The church of Smyrna, Rev.2:8-10
I know thy works, and tribulation, fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer, behold the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation 10 days, (individually) be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of Life.
This is one of the 2 churches that God found no fault in.
They are still here during the tribulation.

 

[JLB]

If we understand that Satan is really an instrument in God's hand (as noted in the book of Job), and that God causes him and his evil angels to be cast down to earth [from the earth's atmosphere (also called "heaven") where he is "the prince of the power of the air"], then Satan's wrath is indeed how God brings His wrath against the unbelieving world at that time. At the same time the divine judgments of the first six trumpets of the 7th seal are manifested. So it is a combination of Satan's wrath and God's wrath. And it is God who ALLOWS Satan and the Antichrist the power that they receive, after which He unleashes His wrath against the Antichrist.

You said you agree the resurrection and rapture are one event, and we know that they occur at His coming.


The resurrection comes first, then the rapture.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
• And the dead in Christ will rise first.
• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

Please remember when this occurs - The last day!


This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:39-40



No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44


Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” John 11:24



Please consider that the resurrection and rapture occurs on the last day, not some 7 years before the last day.




JLB

 

[Easterpup]

7If the foundational premise of 2 Thess 2 is wrong, so the foundation upon which one builds his understanding is also wrong. What is the foundational premise? It is that the Day of Christ is present. The word translated as "present" is the Greek word enistemi, G1764. The fuller meaning is that of being "at hand/near" or "impending/ imminent". It is implied to mean being very near. Depending on how one understands "day of Christ" affects how one understands the word "enistemi".
Paul is writing these words to quell a false notion and put in its place the correct one. The false notion is that THE day of Christ is imminent. The reference there is to a single day. The corrected view involves when the day of Christ will be imminent. Bringing in the subject of the man of sin illustrates how that the imminency of the day of Christ will actually be a period of time consisting of many days, and not just a single day.

The issue at hand is that the day of Christ is not imminent. The Thessalonians thought that it was because of the tribulation and persecution that they were suffering. The result has been to think that this discourse is about when the rapture is to take place. Essentially, it is speaking of when the days of imminency will arrive. But let me explain why the days of imminency is actually referring to when the coming of Christ AT ARMAGEDDON will be near. For starters, those days will be characterized as the time when the man of sin shall arrive on the scene. But this is not about when the rapture shall be imminent, but rather, when the 2nd advent shall be imminent. Paul lays out the following order of events:
1.The coming/ parousia of Christ @the rapture,
2.The gathering together of the elect,
3.A. A falling away,
B. Revealing of the man of sin,
4. The Day of Christ (at Armageddon)

Paul's opening words "I beseech you by...", portrays the essential sequential nature of the coming of the Lord (parousia) and our gathering together unto him. The parousia and gathering together, are not simply prerequisites to the coming of the "Day of Christ ", but they are prerequisites to the revealing of the man of sin. Paul's reiteration referral to the parousia in verses 1 and 8, is an important element to understanding what Paul is trying to say. Why is it so important? It is important to understanding the difference between the parousia and the day of Christ.

Historically speaking, the evidentiary difference between the rapture and the 2nd advent has been a source of seemingly endless debate. I will not go into the various reasons why the debate exists. But that grey area of understanding is largely responsible for not understanding what Paul is saying in 2 Thess 2. But the answer is to be found in the gospels' account of the Olivet Discourse. But the answer is not based on who the discourse was written to. Nor is it based upon whether the rapture or even the church is a part of the discourse. The answer lies in the coming kingdom of God. And Luke holds the key to understanding this.

It starts with the Pharisees asking Jesus about WHEN the KOG shall come. Jesus answered by saying that it would come in conjunction with his revealing. "Even thus shall it be when the son of man is revealed ". But the fullness of the answer lies in the parable of the fig tree found at the ends of the 3 accounts of the Olivet Discourse. Looking at them together reveals a mighty truth that is overlooked.

[Matt 24:32ff, Mar 13:28ff, Luke 21:29ff].


Each account gives this parable in summarial fashion. Paying close attention, we find that Luke gives an important bit of information. He tells us that the end result of ALL these things taking places would be that the KOG would be nigh, or near at hand. All 3 accounts speak of "that day" being NIGH AT HAND. The Greek word used here is G1451, eggus. When used to refer to a place or position, it means that it is near. When used to refer to time, it means to be imminent, and soon to come to pass.
Luke clarifies that what is "eggus"[nigh] is the kingdom of God. But Matthew & Mark, in a connected train of thought says that "no man knows that day or hour". But it is what Matthew & Mark say and Luke doesn't say is where things start coming into view. Whereas, Luke says that the KOG is "eggus", when these things take place, Matthew and Mark includes something that Luke does not. In the list of things in the text of the OD.. They (M & M) includes the gathering of the elect. Matthew tells us that it is with the great sound of the trumpet. When we realize that ALL 3 accounts include "Jesus coming on a cloud with great power and glory ", we should then recognize that Jesus comes with great power and glory, BEFORE the kingdom comes. And, in fact, we should be able to see that the gathering of the elect, IS the arrival of the kingdom. And it is the arrival of the kingdom WITHOUT observation, that is:
1. The day and hour that no man knows, AND,
2. IS the sign that his coming is now imminent, G1471, eggos. (What is the sign of your coming, Matt. 24:3?)

So, it is the arrival of the kingdom of God that will truly make his coming at Armageddon to be imminent. We find in Revelation that the kingdom of the beast (and of the false prophet) covers a 42 month period that will follow after the 7th trumpet sounds and this is when the KOG comes.

One final thought that needs to be addressed is to show that the arrival of the KOG is the same as the Day of the Lord. There are 2 places in the book of revelation that speaks of the coming wrath of God. With the opening of the 6th seal and at the blowing of the 7th trumpet.

*[[Rev 6:17]] KJV* For the great day of his WRATH is COME; and who shall be able to stand?

*[[Rev 11:18]] KJV* And the nations were angry, and thy WRATH is COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

In Rev 6, it (wrath is come) is used in the aorist tense. In Rev 11, it (wrath is come) is used in the aorist participle. The former (aorist only) makes no declaration to the time. But in the latter (aorist participle), a declaration of time is noted, namely the 7th trumpet. The former is to says the wrath of God is imminent. Whereas, the latter is to say that it has arrived. An aorist participle defines the action as of a simple occurence, regardless of the time that it occurs. In this instance, the time of occurence is the sounding of the 7th trumpet. It is similar to Paul saying that the Day of Christ, IS PRESENT. He was not saying that it is here, but was using it to mean imminent, or near. When Rev 1:3 says that "Blessed is he that...KEEEPS those things...for the time is "at hand", the same word G1451, eggus, is used, meaning that the events written therein are imminent to take place. It means that only the generation that experiences those imminent times, can be blessed for "keeping those things written therein". John is not talking about merely understanding WHAT will take place, but he is talking about those who experience those times and become part of those who overcome.

So now let's look at Joel, who gives us several signs of when the DOTL is NEAR. Joel, didn't tell us what the DOTL consists of, but told us about things that take place BEFORE the DOTL comes. They are:
1. Hail & fire Joel 2:30
2a. Sun goes dark,
2b. Moon turns blood red, Joel 2:10,31
3. Vapors of smoke, Joel 2:30
4. An Army of horsemen, Joel 2:4
5. Men desiring to die, but cannot. Joel 2:8
6. God's wrath. Joel 1:15
7. Coming of Elijah, Mal 4:5,

All of these things are explicitly laid out in the 7 trumpets. (Notes: trumpets 4,5 & 6 show Apollyon and his horde of scorpion -locusts ascend from the bottomless pit with a plume of smoke. His army is likened to "horses unto battle" and afflicts men with a great torment that brings unfulfilled desires of death. The 7th trumpet brings the kingdom of God AND the Wrath of God. But it does not bring the Son of God to this earth... But he is proclaimed to be the king of God's kingdom.

*[[Rev 11:15]] KJV* And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The Olivet Discourse shows the coming of Jesus with great power & glory AND the gathering of the elect TO THE KINGDOM, to be followed by the kingdom of the beast & False Prophet... one of which is the man of sin. The Day of Christ IS the Revelation of the Son of God at Armageddon.

Be blessed,

EP.

 

[JLB]

Paul lays out the following order of events:
1.The coming/ parousia of Christ @the rapture,
2.The gathering together of the elect,
3.A. A falling away,
B. Revealing of the man of sin,
4. The Day of Christ (at Armageddon)

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


The resurrection comes first, then the rapture, then the destruction of the wicked including the antichrist.

All three take place at His coming.


Paul made this plain in his first letter.


The premise is not talking about the the coming of the Lord being imminent, but about the coming of the Lord, Day of Christ, Day of the Lord, being “past”.

• not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

Paul lays out the order:

• Falling away
• man of sin being revealed
• The coming of the Lord in which the body of Christ is resurrected, raptured and the man of sin is destroyed.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


These three things occur at the coming of the Lord:

In order -

1. The Resurrection
2. The Rapture
3. The destruction of the wicked including the antichrist

JLB

 

[Easterpup]

Do you agree that the announcement of the kingdom at the 7th trumpet precedes the 42 month kingdom of the beast in conjunction with the man of sin (beast and/ or the false prophet)?

Be Blessed
EP

 

[Easterpup]

Verse list:
Mat 24:32-36 KJVNow learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
MARK: Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
LUKE: And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

MATT: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
MARK: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
LUKE: So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the KINGDOM of GOD is NIGH at HAND

LET'S NOW COMPARE THE LAST FEW THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS.

MATT 24:29a Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven,
MARK 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
LUKE 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

MATT 24:29b, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
MARK 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
LUKE 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

MATT and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
MARK. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
LUKE And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

It's after this sign that Luke says that the KOG is nigh. But M & M includes one more sign:

*[[Mat 24:31]] KJV* And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
*[[Mar 13:27]] KJV* And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

It is of THIS day, that M & M says that no man knows the day or hour. This equates to Luke saying that the KOG comes not with observation. Luke adds this:

*[[Luk 17:22]] KJV* And...The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

MATT: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
MARK: Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
LUKE: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

MATT: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
MARK: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
LUKE: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

MATT: But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
MARK: . But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

MATT: Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
MARK: Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
Luk 21:32ff. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

EP

 

[Easterpup]

Do you agree that the announcement of the kingdom at the 7th trumpet precedes the 42 month kingdom of the beast in conjunction with the man of sin (beast and/ or the false prophet)?

Be Blessed
EP

Luke makes the point that the KOG would, at this point, after all these things takes place, it would only then be nigh. The kingdom comes at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

*[[Luk 21:31]] KJV* So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

In summation, the events of that Olivet Discourse summarily ends with the sounding of the 7th trumpet and do not include the events that takes place during the kingdom of the beast. All three accounts include Jesus's coming in the clouds with power and great glory as one of the last signs BEFORE the arrival of the kingdom of God. The coming in the clouds, is of course, the rapture according to 1 Thess 4.

Be Blessed
EP

 

[JLB]

Do you agree that the announcement of the kingdom at the 7th trumpet precedes the 42 month kingdom of the beast in conjunction with the man of sin (beast and/ or the false prophet)?

Be Blessed
EP

I would have to see the actual scriptures.


Right now, the plain straightforward understanding from 1 and 2 Thessalonians is needed so that we can all agree what occurs at the coming of the Lord.


Resurrection
Rapture
Destruction of the wicked




JLB

 

[Easterpup]

I would have to see the actual scriptures.


Right now, the plain straightforward understanding from 1 and 2 Thessalonians is needed so that we can all agree what occurs at the coming of the Lord.


Resurrection
Rapture
Destruction of the wicked




JLB

Starting in Daniel 2, we have this:

*[[Dan 2:44]] KJV* And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

This is in direct reference to the 10 toes of the 4th kingdom.

Next we find out that the 4th kingdom of Daniel 7 is a kingdom of 10 horns:

*[[Dan 7:7]] KJV* After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

The little horn is a horn that comes up AMONG the 10 horns and not AFTER.

*[[Dan 7:8]] KJV* I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up AMONG them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Speaking again of the little horn, we see this about the beast AND his body:

*[[Dan 7:11]] KJV* I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

At this point let me say that a beast represents a kingdom. And the horn(s) represent kings within the kingdom. Granted, a beast, representing a kingdom, must have a king. And in verse 11 we see that it says that the beast is slain AND his body destroyed. This refers to both the kingdom and its head, in this case, the little horn.

But of the other 3 beasts, they lost the dominion of their kingdom (only for a season & time) , but not their lives.

*[[Dan 7:12]] KJV* As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The demise of this 4th beast is found in the beast from the sea, Rev 13. This beast has 7 heads ruling over 10 horns (kingdoms/ nations). This is exactly what Daniel 7 tells us. [Three horns (of the 10) uprooted by the little horn, leaving 7. No where does it ever say that there are 11 horns. Remember that this little horn comes up among the 10 horns, and not after them. The horns represent nations having a king ruling over them. John deepens our understanding by telling us that the leaders of these nations are symbolically represented as heads. As you know the beast from the sea has 10 horns and 7 heads, as well as 10 crowns. These 10 crowns represents the 10 horns retaining their national sovereignty. They don't lose their identity as 10 nations, even though 3 horns were uprooted. They will not combine to make one new nation. They keep their identity.

Two major mistakes are made concerning Daniel 7. The first is, that this beast(kingdom), as a kingdom, will be revived as a kingdom, but under the guise of another king (besides the little horn). This is spoken of here:

*[[Dan 7:23]] KJV* Thus he said, The FOURTH BEAST shall be the FOURTH KINGDOM upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
*[[Dan 7:24]] KJV* And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and ANOTHER shall rise AFTER 'them'; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Them refers to the original 10 kings. And it says that ANOTHER shall rise AFTER them.

The 2nd mistake is the amount of time that he will have dominion over the saints. It is wrongly assumed to be for 3.5 years. It is:

*[[Dan 7:25]] KJV* And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a TIME and TIMES and the DIVIDING OF TIME.

A dividing of time refers to a portion of a year, but not necessarily half a year. It could be any number of months in a partial year, but most likely is used to refer to less than a half year. Because a Hebrew calendar is based upon lunar months of about 29.52 days, some years have 12 months and some years have an added "leap" month. The frequency of adding a 13th month is on the order of 7 times for every 19 years. The result is that 3 complete lunar cycles (of a year) will result in a length of 37 months (90% of the time) or 38 months (10 %). This would mean that 3.5 Hebrew years would have 43 or 44 months, unequivocally. So, when John tells us that a 2nd beast arises out of the earth, he tells us that right after the beast from the sea suffers a mortal head wound. Referring back to Daniel 7, we find that these 4 beasts (kingdoms) rise up from the earth (arah):

*[[Dan 7:17]] KJV* These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth(arah).

John's 2nd beast from Rev 13 arises from the earth. The beast from the sea is the little horn of Daniel 7. The beast from the earth is this "another king" that rises AFTER the original 10 kings. Here it is again:

*[[Dan 7:24]] KJV* And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and ANOTHER shall rise AFTER them; and he shall be DIVERSE from the FIRST, and he shall subdue three kings.

The word "diverse" means to be changed. And it said to be changed from the first (one, the little horn). It is this "diverse" king that subdues the 3 kings, otherwise known as the beasts that lose their dominion, but not their lives. It is when the little horn dies that 2 things happen.
1. *[[Dan 7:13]] KJV* I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. AND,
2. *[[Dan 7:18]] KJV* But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

In the first case, Jesus (Son of man) is seen coming WITH the clouds of heaven , going in the direction of the Ancient of Days (God the Father) and this being given a kingdom with everlasting dominion that shall never be destroyed... The Kingdom of God!
In the 2nd case, the kingdom is initially given to the saints of the most high, AND,

*[[Dan 7:26]] KJV* But the judgment shall sit, and THEY shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

The kingdom of God comes forth without observation and without the visible presence of Jesus at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

Be Blessed
EP

 

[JLB]

The kingdom of God comes forth without observation and without the visible presence of Jesus at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

No sir.

• When Jesus returns, every eye will see Him, at His coming.

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7


“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10



“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


gather together His elect = Resurrection and Rapture

• At His coming, He will put an end to all other kingdoms rule and authority.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24

• At His coming He will destroy the antichrist.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

• At His coming He will gather His people at the resurrection and rapture.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• At His coming He will will come with the saints and armies from heaven.

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5


Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
Revelation 19:11-14






JLB