Bible Study What would the outcome might have been if Adam did not eat the forbidden fruit given to him by Eve?

[dirtfarmer]

Heb 9:27 was written after sin entered the world.
The cause of death is sin.
Before there was any sin, there was no death.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Then you believe that God is the author of death. That's unfortunate.
Gen 1:31a Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.
Everything that God made was very good. Death is not any kind of good.

When Adam was created, he had no sin. He was like God.
Gen 1:26a Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;...
Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Death is the result (wages) of sin. (Rom 6:23)
God did not create Adam to die. We know that because God gave Adam free access to the tree of life.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.
Adam was not subject to death until he disobeyed God. So, it was not until AFTER he sinned that Adam died. God did not create Adam already condemned to death. It was Adam's choice that caused death to enter into him.

iakov the fool

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Is physical death a condemnation of God or a natural occurrence? I understand that Adam, when created had the ability to converse directly with God face to face, but after sin entered into the world Adam died spiritually. Because of sin Adam was unable to walk in God's presence, physically. After Adam's sinned he only heard God's voice walking in the cool of the day.

Physical death was not a penalty of sin, but spiritual death was.

By your understanding do you believed God lied when he told Adam "for in the day you eat of it you shall surely die"? The day that Adam ate of the fruit he did die, but it was a spiritual death, not a physical death.

Romans 6:23 is in reference to spiritual death, not physical death. How is physical death bad? I understand spiritual death being a negative, but not physical death. With physical we are birthed into the spirit world, whether to be in the presence of God eternally or eternally separated from his presence.

 

[chessman]

After Adam's sinned he only heard God's voice walking in the cool of the day.

If this were true, then why does the account record God physically clothing Adam (and his wife) as well as God having continued two-way conversations with the man (as previously pointed out)?

And Yahweh God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skin, and he clothed them.​

Genesis 3:21 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 3:21&version=LEB

Romans 6:23 is in reference to spiritual death, not physical death.

So also you, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, so that you obey its desires, ...​

Romans 6:11-12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 6:11-12&version=LEB

It’s about mortal bodies, clearly. Just as in The Genesis account;

God’s curse for Adam’s and his wife’s sin was specifically; 1) pain in the rest of his life (Gen 3:16), 2) suffering in life (Gen 3:19a) and 3) his physical/bodily death, i.e. mortality (Gen 3:19b, to dust you shall return) which is exactly what Paul is talking about in Rom 6 as well. That’s what mortality means (able to die).

By the sweat of your brow you shall eat bread, until your return to the ground. For from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”​

Genesis 3:19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 3:19&version=LEB

And Yahweh God said, “Look—the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil. What if he stretches out his hand and takes also from the tree of life and eats, and lives forever? [Notice they were still living and able to eat from the Tree of Life at this time which you call spiritually dead]” And Yahweh God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. So he drove the man out, and placed cherubim east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming, turning sword to guard the way to the tree of life.​

Genesis 3:22-24 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 3:22-24&version=LEB

Both pre-Fallen Adam (who you think was spiritually alive) and post-fallen Adam (whom you think was ‘spiritually dead’ even though the Text doesn’t mention it) could have taken his dusty hand and taken from the Tree of Life had God never removed him from The Garden.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Heb 9:27 was written after sin entered the world.
The cause of death is sin.
Before there was any sin, there was no death.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Then you believe that God is the author of death. That's unfortunate.
Gen 1:31a Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.
Everything that God made was very good. Death is not any kind of good.

When Adam was created, he had no sin. He was like God.
Gen 1:26a Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;...
Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Death is the result (wages) of sin. (Rom 6:23)
God did not create Adam to die. We know that because God gave Adam free access to the tree of life.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.
Adam was not subject to death until he disobeyed God. So, it was not until AFTER he sinned that Adam died. God did not create Adam already condemned to death. It was Adam's choice that caused death to enter into him.

iakov the fool

Well sure, it's true that God gave Adam and Eve free will but He already knew ahead of time that they would choose to sin and disobey Him.

 

[Jim Parker]

Is physical death a condemnation of God or a natural occurrence?

Neither.
God said; “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (Gen 2:17)
He did not say, "the day that you eat of it I will kill you."
Death is the result of sin. "The wages of sin is death." (Ro 6:23)

After Adam's sinned he only heard God's voice walking in the cool of the day.

That is not specifically stated in the Genesis account. It is a speculation.

Physical death was not a penalty of sin, but spiritual death was.

What is "spiritual death"? There is no such term in the Bible.

In any case, neither were a penalty for sin.
Death is the result of separating oneself from God who is the life.
Jhn 14:6 “I am the way, the truth, and the life."
When you separate yourself from life, you die.

By your understanding do you believed God lied

Of course not.

Romans 6:23 is in reference to spiritual death, not physical death.

The passage does not say that. It only says "death."
It appears to be necessary to add to God's word for it to say that.
All Paul says is: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
There's nothing there about "physical death" and "spiritual death."

 

[Jim Parker]

Well sure, it's true that God gave Adam and Eve free will but He already knew ahead of time that they would choose to sin and disobey Him.

That's true.
And God also knew that Jesus would destroy the power of death by His own death and resurrection.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Neither.
God said; “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (Gen 2:17)
He did not say, "the day that you eat of it I will kill you."
Death is the result of sin. "The wages of sin is death." (Ro 6:23)

That is not specifically stated in the Genesis account. It is a speculation.

What is "spiritual death"? There is no such term in the Bible.

In any case, neither were a penalty for sin.
Death is the result of separating oneself from God who is the life.
Jhn 14:6 “I am the way, the truth, and the life."
When you separate yourself from life, you die.

Of course not.

The passage does not say that. It only says "death."
It appears to be necessary to add to God's word for it to say that.
All Paul says is: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
There's nothing there about "physical death" and "spiritual death."

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

What do you think physical death is? Romans 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." If this is in reference to physical death then where is spiritual death(separation from God) in scripture?

Genesis 3:8, " And the heard the of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day." Where is the reference to God walking in the Garden after Adam sinned

In Revelation there mention of a "second death", what is your understanding of "second death"

 

[dirtfarmer]

If this were true, then why does the account record God physically clothing Adam (and his wife) as well as God having continued two-way conversations with the man (as previously pointed out)?

And Yahweh God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skin, and he clothed them.​

Genesis 3:21 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 3:21&version=LEB

So also you, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, so that you obey its desires, ...​

Romans 6:11-12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 6:11-12&version=LEB

It’s about mortal bodies, clearly. Just as in The Genesis account;

God’s curse for Adam’s and his wife’s sin was specifically; 1) pain in the rest of his life (Gen 3:16), 2) suffering in life (Gen 3:19a) and 3) his physical/bodily death, i.e. mortality (Gen 3:19b, to dust you shall return) which is exactly what Paul is talking about in Rom 6 as well. That’s what mortality means (able to die).

By the sweat of your brow you shall eat bread, until your return to the ground. For from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”​

Genesis 3:19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 3:19&version=LEB

And Yahweh God said, “Look—the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil. What if he stretches out his hand and takes also from the tree of life and eats, and lives forever? [Notice they were still living and able to eat from the Tree of Life at this time which you call spiritually dead]” And Yahweh God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. So he drove the man out, and placed cherubim east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming, turning sword to guard the way to the tree of life.​

Genesis 3:22-24 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 3:22-24&version=LEB

Both pre-Fallen Adam (who you think was spiritually alive) and post-fallen Adam (whom you think was ‘spiritually dead’ even though the Text doesn’t mention it) could have taken his dusty hand and taken from the Tree of Life had God never removed him from The Garden.

hello chessman, dirtfarmer here

If Romans 6:11-12 is in reference to our mortal body and death, then how do you understand v13," Neither yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."?

 

[Jim Parker]

What do you think physical death is?

That's when a person quits pumping blood and breathing air and his body begins to decay. If that's what's happening then he is physically dead.

If this is in reference to physical death then where is spiritual death(separation from God) in scripture?

I just asked you that question in my post #64 to which you have responded.
I asked: "What is "spiritual death"? There is no such term in the Bible."
I don't think the spirit can die but I've never done a study on the topic.

In Revelation there mention of a "second death", what is your understanding of "second death"

Exactly what Revelation says.
“But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Rev 21:8)
I don't think I could be any clearer than that.

 

[chessman]

If Romans 6:11-12 is in reference to our mortal body and death

It IS in reference to our mortal bodies. Paul specifically says so. Mortal means able to die. Physically. That’s what the word means. Furthermore he’s referring to Christ’s physical death. You believe Christ physically died, right?

how do you understand v13

As a reference to those of us who have believed in Christ’s physical death and His resurrection. We are to consider ourselves dead to sin (v11). Some of us do just that.

​

 

[dirtfarmer]

It IS in reference to our mortal bodies. Paul specifically says so. Mortal means able to die. Physically. That’s what the word means. Furthermore he’s referring to Christ’s physical death. You believe Christ physically died, right?


As a reference to those of us who have believed in Christ’s physical death and His resurrection. We are to consider ourselves dead to sin (v11). Some of do just that.

​

hello chessman, dirtfarmer here

Was it the physical death of Christ that brought salvation or was it that he was separated from the Father: Matthew 27:46, " And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, la'ma sabach'thani? that is to say, My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?"

I believe "the man" Jesus died.

 

[Jim Parker]

Was it the physical death of Christ that brought salvation

Yes.
Christ died even though he had no sin and, therefore, He had not earned the "wages of sin" which is death.
When He rose from the dead, He destroyed the power of sin to cause permanent, physical death.
ALL of mankind will be raised immortal (can't physically die again) and incorruptible (the body will not deteriorate)
So it was the physical death AND resurrection which brought salvation to all mankind.
1Co 15:51-57
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[chessman]

Was it the physical death of Christ that brought salvation

Yes.

he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross.​

Philippians 2:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Philippians 2:8&version=LEB

Was Jesus spiritually nailed to a cross or physically?

 

[Jim Parker]

Was Jesus spiritually nailed to a cross or physically?

HAH!!
That's good.

 

[stovebolts]

hello chessman, dirtfarmer here

Was it the physical death of Christ that brought salvation or was it that he was separated from the Father: Matthew 27:46, " And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, la'ma sabach'thani? that is to say, My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?"

I believe "the man" Jesus died.

I see the story you are painting. I've always looked at that passage in light of the whole victory Psalm, but I do see how you tie Adam's separation from God in the garden, Jesus separated from God on the cross and those already spiritually dead in Revelation experiencing the second death.

It seems to me that those in Revelation had a chance, but willfully refused.

 

[Count Duckula]

If Adam didn't eat the apple we wouldn't exist. Current American blacks wouldn't exist if not for slavery. Current Jews and Israel wouldn't exist if not for Hitler. You see the same combinations of couplings and genetic mutations are a precise and delicate set of circumstances. It must all be a part of God's plan.

 

[chessman]

ALL of mankind will be raised immortal (can't physically die again) and incorruptible (the body will not deteriorate)

It appears to be necessary to add to God's word for it to say that.

But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The “us” in this Text are those who have received and stand on the Gospel, not ‘ALL of mankind’.

Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed to you, which you have also received, in which you also stand, by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed to no purpose.​

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:1-2&version=LEB

Do you believe ‘ALL of mankind’ is gifted victory?

 

[Jim Parker]

The “us” in this Text are those who have received and stand on the Gospel, not ‘ALL of mankind’.

All of mankind will be raised from the dead in the resurrection.

Do you believe ‘ALL of mankind’ is gifted victory?

Jesus destroyed the power of death by His death and resurrection. He has gained victory over the devil by making the devil's weapon against mankind (death) of no effect because He has destroyed the power of death.

In doing so, Jesus also executed justice on behalf of mankind because it was the devil who enticed and deceived innocent and naive Adam and Eve to sin which resulted in sin and death entering the world and death coming to all mankind because all sin. ( Rom 5:12 ) By freeing mankind from the wages of sin, he ended the tyranny of the devil and made a way for mankind to have the eternal life which which devil tried to take from man by deceit and fraud.

Because of Jesus death and resurrection, death no longer has the power to permanently hold anyone and everyone will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible as is stated in 1 Cor 15. The bodies of those who are alive when Jesus returns will be transformed from physical to spiritual because all will see Him (Rev 1:7) and, seeing Him, will become like Him. (1Jo 3:2)

That is the reason why the Logos became a man; (John 1:14) so that, as a sinless man, He would die in the place of all mankind (Rom 5:18) but, because He had no sin, death and Hades could not hold Him. And, because Jesus, by the incarnation, is one of mankind, death and Hades cannot hold any of mankind. All of mankind, saint and sinner, be raised from the dead with a "spiritual" body which cannot physically die of deteriorate.

1Co 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

BUT not everyone will receive eternal life.
The resurrection of the body in an immortal and incorruptible state is NOT the same as eternal life.

Eternal life will only be given to those who do God's will. (To the best of their ability, as I understand)
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:28-29)

Rom 2:6-10a (God) “will render to each one according to his deeds”: (Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12) eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good,

Those who imitate God in His mercy will inherit the kingdom of heaven but those who imitate the devil in his mercilessness will join the devil and his angels in hell.

Mat 25:34-36
“Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ "

Mat 25:41-43 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ "
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Therefore, all of mankind will be raised immortal and incorruptible.
Those who have done good will receive eternal life.
Those who have done evil will receive the second death.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

As it says in Mat 25, the unmerciful were sent to hell and in Rev 20 hell is cast into the lake of fire so the unmerciful (wicked) receive the second death along with the devil and his angels.

iakov the fool

 

[chessman]

Because of Jesus death and resurrection, death no longer has the power to permanently hold anyone

So then, on this logic, second death ‘no longer has the power to permanently hold anyone’???

everyone will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible as is stated in 1 Cor 15.

1 Cor 15 says no such thing. As I pointed out, Paul’s says it is “us” (brothers standing on the Gospel) who will be raised immortal and incorruptible. It says nothing about non-brothers immortality (or cats immortality). You have to add the idea of including non-brothers (and their victory) to what he states here.

1 Corinthians 15:50-57 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)​

50 Now I say this, brothers: ... we will not all fall-asleep. But we will all be changed ... For this decayable body must put-on undecayability, and this mortal body must put on immortality. ... But thanks be to God, the One giving us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.​

Furthermore, to extend immortality (and incorruptibility too BTW) to non-brothers, disagrees with several Early Orthodox Church Fathers commentary on the passage.

"it is the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever on those who are saved.​

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book2.html​

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​

 

[Jim Parker]

So then, on this logic, second death ‘no longer has the power to permanently hold anyone’???

No. That is not logical. The "second death" is not the physical death of the body. It is entirely different.

1 Cor 15 says no such thing.

So how will the damned suffer in the second death forever if they are not immortal and incorruptible?
If they were not they would be annihilated as some heretical sects teach.

Furthermore, to extend immortality (and incorruptibility too BTW) to non-brothers, disagrees with several Early Orthodox Church Fathers commentary on the passage.

Really?
Every one?
Cite 3

 

[chessman]

The "second death" is not the physical death of the body. It is entirely different.

So 2nd is ‘entirely different’ from the 1st??? Like 2nd base is entirely different than 1st base, right.

The 2nd death is more fearful than the first:

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=LEB

So how will the damned suffer in the second death forever if they are not immortal and incorruptible?

Easy, their destruction lasts forever.

Cite 3

1.

it is the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever on those who are saved.http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book2.html

2.

CHAPTER XVII.--BEWARE OF FALSE DOCTRINES.​

For this end did the Lord suffer the ointment to be poured upon His head, that He might breathe immortality into His Church.​

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-ephesians-roberts.html​

Your addition to Paul’s doctrine has the Lord breathing immortality (and again incorruptibility) into those who are NOT His church.

3.

For he who keepeth these [judgments of the Lord] shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works. On this account there will be a resurrection, on this account a retribution.​

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-roberts.html​

​

If they were not they would be annihilated as some heretical sects teach.

Islam teaches that the righteous and the wicked are resurrected immortal.