When Beliefs Conflict

[Boaz]

I agree that in many cases it is fear that keeps people from even considering other beliefs or doctrines. Doctrine does indeed mean teaching (that awful word again TD. lol). Doctrine itself, or a long time anyway was avoided not only as bad word but unnecessary for church, not everywhere of course, but some churches. I always thought thought maybe they should open the dictionary. And I'll agree that using the word indoctrination in the context that I did was inaccurate. I mean it in the sense of having our beliefs put into us by repetition, through tradition or a cult or a denomination, with no theological back up, no Biblical backup involving hermeneutics or exegesis, either by the institution or personally. To the point we accept it, won't budge from it, won't investigate its truthfulness. I don't consider that I have been indoctrinated. I did my own study, my own investigation, my own search for truth (using human references and resources, to be sure, but checking them against the Bible.) And reached my own conclusions. And some of the things taught I disagree with or o not fully understand their interpretations.

TD
On indoctrination. There are certain doctrines of Christianity that must be believed for salvation, as you know. We are taught them, or we read them in the Bible, one way or another we have to hear them, and we believe them or not. If we believe, it is not indoctrination, it is faith, saving faith. All I am talking about as far as indoctrination goes, are things outside of scriptural teachings that are taught from the pulpit.

 

[JLB]

I can't decide what John 3:5 is referring to...

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5

It’s about birth; being born


I wonder if any of us could at least agree on that one basic point, since that is the subject Jesus is teaching.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5

It’s about birth; being born


I wonder if any of us could at least agree on that one basic point, since that is the subject Jesus is teaching.


JLB

I tend to believe as you do.
Some churches teach that it's baptism.
They did believe, at that time, that baptism took away sins.
Taking away sins is being born again,,,or at least that's how it was understood.

HOWEVER, Nicodemus did say how a man cannot get back into the womb...referring to natural child birth.
AND...one must be BORN FIRST...and THEN can be born spiritually, just as you always state.

You're so sure about everything J....
There are other members on a different thread discussing what indoctrination means -- I just read it.
I haven't really been indoctrinated about anything and thus there are a couple of issues I'm not absolutely certain about. I AM certain about most....

I don't think this has anything to do with soteriology, so I don't think about it too much. What difference do you suppose it makes if it means baptism OR if it means the second "birth"?

 

[GodsGrace]

There are other reasons why people strongly adhere to their theology, such as fear of being wrong about it. Fear of eternal condemnation is very subtle but strong motivation. It's what Paul calls stronghold, and the writer of Heb. calls bondage.

It's a shame that "indoctrinate" has such a bad connotation that people immediately think of psychological tyranny and evil motives. The term "doctrine" simply means "teaching," and we are all indoctrinated into something. Many of us are indoctrinated in the true gospel of grace and freedom in Christ, and what a blessing. I'm glad I'm there, and I quite like what I believe.

But I do agree that many preachers today have greed and popularity as their motives, just as it was from the beginning.
TD

Hi TM
Wouldn't fear of eternal damnation work AGAINST eternal security?
And I do believe that Reformed05 is correct in her understanding of indoctrination. The way it's used really means brainwashed. It's someone that accepts what they are taught with no thought as to checking out for themselves what the bible says.
Much like the Bareans in Acts 17:11. Some persons just accept what they're told (Catholics come to mind).

 

[tdidymas]

Hi TM
Wouldn't fear of eternal damnation work AGAINST eternal security?
And I do believe that Reformed05 is correct in her understanding of indoctrination. The way it's used really means brainwashed. It's someone that accepts what they are taught with no thought as to checking out for themselves what the bible says.
Much like the Bareans in Acts 17:11. Some persons just accept what they're told (Catholics come to mind).

I don't get your question, or your point in it.

People are "brainwashed" by means of drugs, torture, or "systematic controlled indoctrination." It's part of how the cult machine works, "controlled" being the operative term.

If someone has no thought to check out what they are told, it seems to me, one of these applies to them (there may be more):
1. Too young to know enough to check something out - gullible, ignorant.
2. Too lazy to do due diligence for testing out the truth of something taught.
3. Beaten into submission, whipped of spirit, psychologically tyrannized.
Unfortunately there are many who fall into one of these categories.
TD

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Anyone that has spent any amount of time on this or other forums has undoubtedly encourter if not been a part of doctrinal disagreements. These encounters oftentime do not go well and I was hoping to start a discussion related to ways to improve our discussion of disagreements.
So, what do we do when what someone believes doesn't jibe with what we've been taught? WHat's the best way to bring the 'disconnect' to people's attention? How can we go from the 'let me show you why you're wrong' attitude to the 'let me see what I may have missed' attitude when APPROACHING an area of dissent?

When Christian beliefs conflict you just go back to the most trusted source you both agree is the word of God, the Bible, and prove it with the context.

For example if people are debating that you must go to church every Sunday you show them the three scriptures that say "God does not dwell in temples made by the hands of man", "The kingdom of God is within you", and "do you not know you are the temple of God". Done. The Church is each individual believer around the world and not some building you must attend every week or your a sinner who disrespects God. Biblical fact.

I never go to church. Not because I don't like it I'm just to lazy. Oh, that's not good some Christians would say.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Indoctrination:the process of getting a person or group of people to accept beliefs uncritically.
There is a subtle cultish or ulterior motivation implied there it seems to me.

Having been in a cult and then working as a deprogrammer, there is definitely a negative side to indoctrination. Twisting the Word, together with isolation, control and brainwashing are hard to overcome. I look very carefully for cult-like behavior in any organization.

 

[JLB]

What difference do you suppose it makes if it means baptism OR if it means the second "birth"?

If a person thinks he is born again because his church dunked him in water, then he now believes he is born again, and has a false sense of salvation, in which he never heeds the Gospel call to repent, thinking he is already saved.


JLB

 

[WIP]

When Christian beliefs conflict you just go back to the most trusted source you both agree is the word of God, the Bible, and prove it with the context.

For example if people are debating that you must go to church every Sunday you show them the three scriptures that say "God does not dwell in temples made by the hands of man", "The kingdom of God is within you", and "do you not know you are the temple of God". Done. The Church is each individual believer around the world and not some building you must attend every week or your a sinner who disrespects God. Biblical fact.

I never go to church. Not because I don't like it I'm just to lazy. Oh, that's not good some Christians would say.

Scripture also tells us to gather together regularly. See Hebrews 10:24-25. So therein would be the debate or discussion. From there, what is God's desire for us? Perhaps to attend when possible?

 

[JLB]

Scripture also tells us to gather together regularly. See Hebrews 10:24-25. So therein would be the debate or discussion. From there, what is God's desire for us? Perhaps to attend when possible?

This is actually a good subject to discuss.

Today, some polls show that there are more believers who do not “go to Church”, than there are who do.

I emphasize “go to Church” because this is not found in the Bible.

Assembling or gathering with other Christians is indeed.


JLB

 

[Boaz]

Having been in a cult and then working as a deprogrammer, there is definitely a negative side to indoctrination. Twisting the Word, together with isolation, control and brainwashing are hard to overcome. I look very carefully for cult-like behavior in any organization.

I was raised as Christian Scientists so know what you mean. You become very discerning about such things as the meaning of words being changed and things being twisted to suit a narrative. I had no trouble getting away from CS because let's face it. We do live in a material world no matter how much your religion denies it. I also still cringe at certain words, material being one of them. Matter. Seems like. And it's off topic of this thread I guess, but there is a metaphysical aspect to some of the things coming from certain pulpits and over tv that I recognize from my upbringing, and in fact after doing research on these sects, they are rooted in the metaphysical religions of the CS era. Among other things they legitimize their teaching by attaching Jesus to it as did the founder of CS. Nothing Christian or scientific about it.

 

[Anto9us2]

I have heard it said that Christian Scientists LIED TWICE just in their NAME.

 

[Boaz]

I have heard it said that Christian Scientists LIED TWICE just in their NAME.

You are absolutely right. The founder, Mary Baker Eddy, was bizarre if not mentally disturbed. Certainly she had a plethora of personality disorders. She said some blasphemous things about Jesus, one being there was no power in His blood to save .anyone. She said He was an example, having gotten closer than anyone to truth but that ultimately He also fell short, since He died. She called her religion the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. She herself was appointed by God (who according to her is an idea and we His reflection) to continue the work that Jesus started. That alone pretty much takes the Christian out of it. As for the science, her starting point was that matter, the physical world, is an illusion. The opposite of science.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't get your question, or your point in it.

People are "brainwashed" by means of drugs, torture, or "systematic controlled indoctrination." It's part of how the cult machine works, "controlled" being the operative term.

If someone has no thought to check out what they are told, it seems to me, one of these applies to them (there may be more):
1. Too young to know enough to check something out - gullible, ignorant.
2. Too lazy to do due diligence for testing out the truth of something taught.
3. Beaten into submission, whipped of spirit, psychologically tyrannized.
Unfortunately there are many who fall into one of these categories.
TD

I agree with the above.
I was thinking about what you said in your post no. 98:
such as fear of being wrong about it. Fear of eternal condemnation is very subtle but strong motivation

It seems to me that those afraid of eternal condemnation would tend to believe in eternal security once they are saved.

I've been saved a long time and do NOT believe in eternal security.

If you mean, instead, that some come to Christ BECAUSE they are afraid of eternal condemnation and going to die without God....then I do believe this could bring to salvation if their spirit is in tune with God because of this fear...but NOT due to this fear alone.

(I might have misunderstood you...maybe).

 

[GodsGrace]

If a person thinks he is born again because his church dunked him in water, then he now believes he is born again, and has a false sense of salvation, in which he never heeds the Gospel call to repent, thinking he is already saved.


JLB

I understand.
I don't know that there SHOULD be persons that believe baptism alone saves them because they should be a knowledgeable Christian BEFORE they are baptized.

In Protestant churches the member must surely be known by either the Pastor or an elder.

In the Catholic faith, it takes an adult 1 year of study before he is accepted as a practicing Catholic. This would be for those that are converted to Catholicism.

 

[tdidymas]

I agree with the above.
I was thinking about what you said in your post no. 98:
such as fear of being wrong about it. Fear of eternal condemnation is very subtle but strong motivation

It seems to me that those afraid of eternal condemnation would tend to believe in eternal security once they are saved.

I've been saved a long time and do NOT believe in eternal security.

If you mean, instead, that some come to Christ BECAUSE they are afraid of eternal condemnation and going to die without God....then I do believe this could bring to salvation if their spirit is in tune with God because of this fear...but NOT due to this fear alone.

(I might have misunderstood you...maybe).

Yes, you did misunderstand, as you did not get the point of my statement. Note the context: "reasons why people strongly adhere to their theology," which is the context of why beliefs conflict. It has to do with why people don't listen to reason, or why they can't admit they could be wrong in their belief system.
TD

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, you did misunderstand, as you did not get the point of my statement. Note the context: "reasons why people strongly adhere to their theology," which is the context of why beliefs conflict. It has to do with why people don't listen to reason, or why they can't admit they could be wrong in their belief system.
TD

Right. I noticed the context (reasons why.....) before.
I post pretty late at night and sometimes I miss something.
Sorry 'bout that.

I do agree with you.

 

[JLB]

I don't know that there SHOULD be persons that believe baptism alone saves them because they should be a knowledgeable Christian BEFORE they are baptized.

Unfortunatly the “knowledge” people receive in certain denominations is frightening.

Some denominations teach their followers that they will be born again when they are baptized in water.



JLB

 

[Boaz]

I agree with the above.
I was thinking about what you said in your post no. 98:
such as fear of being wrong about it. Fear of eternal condemnation is very subtle but strong motivation

It seems to me that those afraid of eternal condemnation would tend to believe in eternal security once they are saved.

I've been saved a long time and do NOT believe in eternal security.

If you mean, instead, that some come to Christ BECAUSE they are afraid of eternal condemnation and going to die without God....then I do believe this could bring to salvation if their spirit is in tune with God because of this fear...but NOT due to this fear alone.

(I might have misunderstood you...maybe).

I may be wrong, it has happened before! But I think TD May have been referring to people who have been indoctrinated into questionable beliefs may be afraid to leave the belief system because they have been taught that if they do, they will go to hell. I know the Catholics used to teach only Catholics are saved, don't know if they still do. Mormons teach this and many cults.

 

[GodsGrace]

Unfortunatly the “knowledge” people receive in certain denominations is frightening.

Some denominations teach their followers that they will be born again when they are baptized in water.



JLB

What will God do?
This brings up the questIon:
Will God forgive due to incorrect teachings???

If the baptized person goes on to live a life for God, they will indeed be saved.

But what if they have a false sense of security and THINK they are saved, when in reality they are not.

The bible states to be careful before teaching because God will hold US responsible for what is taught wrongly.
James 3:1

This is disturbing to learn....