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When Did The Church Begin?

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#1
I sometimes post the Early Church Fathers to show what the early Christians believed about our faith.
I'm told at times that they have no importance and their views of no value but only the bible has value.
The letters already existed and the gospel was known.

So my question would be:

When do YOU believe the church began?
I believe it began in Acts.
 

Truthfrees

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#2
I sometimes post the Early Church Fathers to show what the early Christians believed about our faith.
I'm told at times that they have no importance and their views of no value but only the bible has value.
The letters already existed and the gospel was known.

So my question would be:

When do YOU believe the church began?
I believe it began in Acts.
getting really technical - "church" is the greek word for "called out ones" - the called out ones started at Abraham - Romans 11:17

and had a global impact/expansion/clarification/proclamation after the death and resurrection of Messiah Jesus God the Son as per the book of Acts - Romans 11:11-31
 

for_his_glory

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#3
https://bible.org/question/did-church-begin-john-2022-or-pentecost-acts-24

The church did not exist in Old Testament times but was constituted on the Day of Pentecost (arguments to support the day of Pentecost will be given below). It is distinct to this present time period. Several lines of evidence support this conclusion.

(1) Our Lord said: “I will build My church” (Matt. 16:18). He did not say that He would continue to add to something already in existence, but that He would do something not yet begun.

(2) The church could have no functioning Head until after the resurrection of Christ; therefore, it could not exist until some time after He rose from the dead (Eph. 1:20-23—note how these verses connect His resurrection, ascension, and session to His headship over the church).

(3) The church could not have been an operating entity with functioning spiritual gifts until after Christ’s ascension. This is the clear implication of Eph. 4:7-12.

By a comparison of a number of passages, it seems clear that Pentecost marked the beginning of the church as a functioning body (the body of Christ) by the outpouring of the Spirit on that day. Note the following arguments:

(1) Before His ascension the Lord promised that the disciples would be baptized with the Holy Spirit soon (Acts 1:5).

(2) Though the word “baptism” does not appear in the account of Pentecost in chapter 2, it is quite clear from 11:15-16 that the baptism occurred for the first time on that day. Note carefully Peter’s argument here. In verse 15 he equated the indwelling of the Spirit in Acts 10:44 on the Gentile believers there with the coming of the Spirit and His indwelling in Acts 2. Then in verse 16, he equated all of this with the Lord’s promise of the baptizing of the Spirit in Acts 1:5 which shows these were one and the same, i.e., the baptizing of the Spirit. But what exactly is that?

(3) According to Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:13, Spirit baptism is a special work of the Spirit that places people (believers) in the body of Christ. So what is the body of Christ? The body of Christ is the church according to Ephesians 1:22-23. Thus, the church, the body, began when those first individuals were baptized by the Spirit which began the process of placing believers into the Body whenever any one believes in Christ. This process began at Pentecost.

Several other things occurred on the Day of Pentecost. The disciples were filled with the Spirit (Acts 2:4). Three thousand were baptized with water (v. 41). The visible church began that day (vv. 42-47).

In addition to baptizing those who believe into the body, the Spirit also indwells individual Christians (1 Cor. 6:19), local churches (3:16), and the body of Christ (Eph. 2:22). The Spirit also empowers, leads, comforts, and gives gifts to the church (Acts 1:8; 9:31; 1 Cor. 12:3). In a very real sense, the Spirit is the energizing life and power of the church.

So, what about the John 20:22 passage?

(1) This may have been a temporary indwelling until Pentecost similar to the indwelling of the Spirit in OT times as with Saul and David, an indwelling that could be removed as it was with Saul (cf. also Ps. 51:10-11 and Luke 11:13). David prayed that the HS might not be taken from Him, a prayer we can’t pray today since Spirit is given to us permanently as a seal unto the day of redemption (cf. Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; see also John 14:16). In Luke 11:13 the Lord told the disciples they could at that time ask for the indwelling of the Spirit. They evidently did not and so, until Pentecost, He gave them the Spirit as a temporary enabling. At Pentecost, when the church began, the Spirit’s indwelling became permanent.

(2) On the other hand, some believe that this act of breathing on them was a kind of prophecy or a symbolic act in anticipation of the Spirit’s ultimate fulfillment of Ezekiel 37.
 

Anto9us

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#4
pentecost

Act 2:1
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
 

for_his_glory

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#5
Exactly who are these Early Church Fathers that I hear many of you talk about? Do they have names?
 

Anto9us

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#6
Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Hippolytus, Origen, Tertullian - those are a few.

(They are deceased now.)

Later on there was Basil, his brother Gregory, and his other brother Gregory.
 

Truthfrees

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#8
Exactly who are these Early Church Fathers that I hear many of you talk about? Do they have names?
here's a link: https://www.preceden.com/timelines/10328-church-fathers-50---750-a-d-

and here's a list i gleaned from this link:

APOSTOLIC FATHERS
THE ONLY 4 WHO PERSONALLY KNEW THE ORIGINAL APOSTLES

1. Clement of Rome, - 1AD-96AD
2. Ignatius of Antioch, - 35AD-110AD
3. Polycarp of Smyrna, - 69AD-155AD
4. Justin Martyr - 103AD-165AD

EARLY CHURCH FATHERS
DID NOT KNOW/HEAR THE ORIGINAL APOSTLES
5. Irenaeus of Lyons, - 100AD-200AD - heard Polycarp teach
DID NOT KNOW/HEAR ORIGINAL APOSTLES OR APOSTOLIC FATHERS
6. Clement of Alexandria, - 150AD-216AD
7. Tertullian, - 160AD-225AD
8. Hippolytus of Rome, 170AD-235AD
9. Origen of Alexandria, 248AD - 185AD-254AD
10. Cyprian of Carthage - 200AD-258AD
11. Eusebius of Caesarea, - 263-339AD
12. Athanasius of Alexandria, - 293-373AD
13. Cyril of Jerusalem, - 313-386AD
14. Ambrose of Milan, 388AD -338-397AD
15. Jerome of Stridonium, 383AD -347-420AD
16. John Chrysostom, - 347-407AD
17. Augustine of Hippo, 401AD - 354-430AD
18. Cyril of Alexandria, 403AD - 378-444AD
19. Pope Leo the Great, 450AD - 391-461AD
20. Gregory the Great - 540-604AD
21. John of Damascus - 676-749AD
 

reba

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#10
I sometimes post the Early Church Fathers to show what the early Christians believed about our faith.
I'm told at times that they have no importance and their views of no value but only the bible has value.
The letters already existed and the gospel was known.

So my question would be:

When do YOU believe the church began?
I believe it began in Acts.
In the Garden .. God had fellowship with man..
 

for_his_glory

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#11
Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Hippolytus, Origen, Tertullian - those are a few.

(They are deceased now.)

Later on there was Basil, his brother Gregory, and his other brother Gregory.
Thank you. I can honestly say I know nothing of what they taught, but yet they were not part of the early Churches that were establish by the Disciples with Christ being the head as they were all in the Providences of Rome. The Disciples were first taught by Jesus then indwelled with the Holy Spirit as God anointed them and then sent them out to preach. They were the ones who started to form the first churches with Christ alone being the head over the body. Churches being the body of Christ usually met in each others homes behind locked doors or other private places in fear of the Roman Government and the Jewish High Priest finding them and killing them for their witness and testimony of Christ. (something interesting to look up).

Personally for myself there are only three things I use to study and learn from. The KJV, The Jerusalem Bible and the Holy Spirit teaching me as I read that of what Jesus already taught and the Disciples took out into the world. Other than that there are just to many different gospels being preached by many seducing spirits out there that love to preach the doctrines of devils.
 

for_his_glory

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#12
here's a link: https://www.preceden.com/timelines/10328-church-fathers-50---750-a-d-

and here's a list i gleaned from this link:

APOSTOLIC FATHERS
THE ONLY 4 WHO PERSONALLY KNEW THE ORIGINAL APOSTLES

1. Clement of Rome, - 1AD-96AD
2. Ignatius of Antioch, - 35AD-110AD
3. Polycarp of Smyrna, - 69AD-155AD
4. Justin Martyr - 103AD-165AD

EARLY CHURCH FATHERS
DID NOT KNOW/HEAR THE ORIGINAL APOSTLES
5. Irenaeus of Lyons, - 100AD-200AD - heard Polycarp teach
DID NOT KNOW/HEAR ORIGINAL APOSTLES OR APOSTOLIC FATHERS
6. Clement of Alexandria, - 150AD-216AD
7. Tertullian, - 160AD-225AD
8. Hippolytus of Rome, 170AD-235AD
9. Origen of Alexandria, 248AD - 185AD-254AD
10. Cyprian of Carthage - 200AD-258AD
11. Eusebius of Caesarea, - 263-339AD
12. Athanasius of Alexandria, - 293-373AD
13. Cyril of Jerusalem, - 313-386AD
14. Ambrose of Milan, 388AD -338-397AD
15. Jerome of Stridonium, 383AD -347-420AD
16. John Chrysostom, - 347-407AD
17. Augustine of Hippo, 401AD - 354-430AD
18. Cyril of Alexandria, 403AD - 378-444AD
19. Pope Leo the Great, 450AD - 391-461AD
20. Gregory the Great - 540-604AD
21. John of Damascus - 676-749AD
Thank you :)
 
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#13
I sometimes post the Early Church Fathers to show what the early Christians believed about our faith.
I'm told at times that they have no importance and their views of no value but only the bible has value.
The letters already existed and the gospel was known.

So my question would be:

When do YOU believe the church began?
I believe it began in Acts.
The Church began at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was given to the 120 believers thereby fulfilling what Jesus said would happen:
Act 1:8 ... you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

It needs to be understood that the Church existed before any Gospels or Epistles were written.
The Gospels and the Epistles are written documents of the apostolic tradition (AKA: the teaching of the apostles) that the Church already knew and lived. The books of the NT were accepted by the Church because they were identical with the original tradition as the Church already knew it.

I believe that the main reasons that people say the Early Church Fathers (ECFs) are of no importance are (1) they have never read them, (2) they are too Catholic for some people (too "sacramental") and (3) because they are written mostly in the Hellenist rhetorical style, they are a bit difficult to read so people give up.

What is not understood by those who conclude that if it's not in the Bible they don't need it is that it was those ECFs who insured that the truth of the Bible was upheld against the multitude of pagan influences which were brought to bear against the teaching of the apostles in an effort to distort them. We have a New Testament because the ECFs refuted those false teachers and defined the canon of NT scripture specifically to eliminate any possibility of a false Gospel or Epistle being circulated as the authentic teaching of Jesus.

Reading the ECFs is of great value in understanding the doctrinal challenges of the early Church. By reading them, one will understand that those same challenges are used to assault the Church today. The manner by which the ECFs refuted them are equally effective today.

Those writings also reveal the discussions, debates, and arguments which were part of the forming of Christian theology including the concepts of the Trinity, the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit, the Divine and Human natures of Christ. The important issues surrounding these essential doctrines of Christianity are to be found in the writings of the ECFs.

To dismiss their writings as unnecessary because "Everything I need to know in in the Bible." is rather simple-minded. If that were the case then there would have never been any heresies. A lack of understanding of the work that the ECFs did is fertile ground for the seeds of the heresies of today.


iakov the fool
 
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#14
I sometimes post the Early Church Fathers to show what the early Christians believed about our faith.
I'm told at times that they have no importance and their views of no value but only the bible has value.
The letters already existed and the gospel was known.

So my question would be:

When do YOU believe the church began?
I believe it began in Acts.
Hi, wondering, As was mentioned, The Church was initiated at Pentecost in The Acts of the Apostles. But the Church, in God's plan was called out before the foundation of the world. In God's plan, the Church was decided before Israel's calling. (Eph. 1:3-8)
 
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#15
The Church began at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was given to the 120 believers thereby fulfilling what Jesus said would happen:
Act 1:8 ... you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

It needs to be understood that the Church existed before any Gospels or Epistles were written.
The Gospels and the Epistles are written documents of the apostolic tradition (AKA: the teaching of the apostles) that the Church already knew and lived. The books of the NT were accepted by the Church because they were identical with the original tradition as the Church already knew it.

I believe that the main reasons that people say the Early Church Fathers (ECFs) are of no importance are (1) they have never read them, (2) they are too Catholic for some people (too "sacramental") and (3) because they are written mostly in the Hellenist rhetorical style, they are a bit difficult to read so people give up.

What is not understood by those who conclude that if it's not in the Bible they don't need it is that it was those ECFs who insured that the truth of the Bible was upheld against the multitude of pagan influences which were brought to bear against the teaching of the apostles in an effort to distort them. We have a New Testament because the ECFs refuted those false teachers and defined the canon of NT scripture specifically to eliminate any possibility of a false Gospel or Epistle being circulated as the authentic teaching of Jesus.

Reading the ECFs is of great value in understanding the doctrinal challenges of the early Church. By reading them, one will understand that those same challenges are used to assault the Church today. The manner by which the ECFs refuted them are equally effective today.

Those writings also reveal the discussions, debates, and arguments which were part of the forming of Christian theology including the concepts of the Trinity, the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit, the Divine and Human natures of Christ. The important issues surrounding these essential doctrines of Christianity are to be found in the writings of the ECFs.

To dismiss their writings as unnecessary because "Everything I need to know in in the Bible." is rather simple-minded. If that were the case then there would have never been any heresies. A lack of understanding of the work that the ECFs did is fertile ground for the seeds of the heresies of today.


iakov the fool
Great post.
Thanks.
 
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#16
Hi, wondering, As was mentioned, The Church was initiated at Pentecost in The Acts of the Apostles. But the Church, in God's plan was called out before the foundation of the world. In God's plan, the Church was decided before Israel's calling. (Eph. 1:3-8)
OK
But we're talking about what took place here on earth in history.
Just to clarify. :) :wave
 
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#18
getting really technical - "church" is the greek word for "called out ones" - the called out ones started at Abraham - Romans 11:17

and had a global impact/expansion/clarification/proclamation after the death and resurrection of Messiah Jesus God the Son as per the book of Acts - Romans 11:11-31

So true.
 

Truthfrees

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#19
It's funny how people so often skip over the most obvious answer and go on to talk about all the trivial knowledge they've gained in life.
this is actually profound knowledge my dear friend - why the attack on another poster? - why the negativity? - the post was a positive one - it attacked no one
 
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#20
Experience dear friend.
Through the years, people tend to want to hear themselves talk and impress others while the truth goes right by them.
That's why I addressed Reba, she understands.
 

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