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When Did The Church Begin?

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#41
there was GRACE when a ram caught in the thicket was sacrificed instead of Isaac



No, Douglas, I cannot hold with the Replacement Theology. I don't hate you, and if the world hates you -- well, goes with the territory.

Despite pre-existing Grace all along, Christ said "Upon this rock I WILL BUILD (future tense) My Church"

What was THE ROCK? Not Simon himself, but the FAITH that revealed something to Simon Peter, and ultimately THE ROCK was Christ Himself.

1Co 10:1
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

1Co 10:2
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

1Co 10:3
And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

1Co 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Oh my.
I agree with post no. 37 and also with yours.
But you don't agree with 37.
I don't know enough about replacement theology.
Israel was the "son" of God and the Church is the Bride of Christ.
I agree that this is a mystery, the Bride, but can't the mystery also be the New Covenant?
Finally, God saves us Himself. Ezekiel 34:15
 
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#42
Anto,

Here is another link to the writings of the early church fathers (ECF): http://newadvent.org/fathers/ (New Advent). Here is a comprehensive list of the writings of the ECF, listed under their names. I've used this site many times to help me understand the doctrines of these teachers (1 Cor 12:28-30; Eph 4:10-12 NIV).

Why is it important for Christians to listen to God-given teachers, whether historical or contemporary? The purpose of Bible teachers is "to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up" (Eph 4:12 NIV). To not engage with these teachers is to refuse to be equipped for edification and equipping for ministry.

I'm amazed to hear some say to me (not in this thread), "I don't listen to Bible teachers because they are only men/women, but I listen only to the Holy Spirit within me". That's not a biblical perspective as the above Scriptures indicate.

There is one proviso when listening to any Bible teacher. The listeners must be 'Bereans': "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true" (Acts 17:11 NIV).

If early Christians had to listen to Paul and compare what Paul said with what the Scriptures taught, that's exactly what we have to do with any preacher, author, or forum poster.

Oz
 
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#43
Oh my.
I agree with post no. 37 and also with yours.
But you don't agree with 37.
I don't know enough about replacement theology.
Israel was the "son" of God and the Church is the Bride of Christ.
I agree that this is a mystery, the Bride, but can't the mystery also be the New Covenant?
Finally, God saves us Himself. Ezekiel 34:15
Hi wondering, Never thought you hated me. Don't know Auto9us and don't know what replacement thelogy is?....Unless your talking about The Church and Israel.....And Grace started the day Eve sinned and drew in Adam.
 
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#44
and if the world hates you -- well, goes with the territory.
If you are a born again believer, the world will hate you too...it is not just me it hates. For the world hates all born again believers, because we do not live under it's principles, and I never said you hated me. What was your point with The 1 Cor. 10:1-4 Scriptures? I use those Scripture to show Christ is the God of the OT. All communication with God and man was Pre incarnate Christ.
 

Anto9us

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#45
Good link, OzSpen

and Wondering -- i didn't disagree with #37

all I disagreed with was Replacement Theology - the idea that the Church replaced Israel as THE NEW ISRAEL

I think we all pretty much agree
 

Anto9us

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#46
Douglas, all my point was that the world will hate believers

and that the establishment of MY CHURCH was yet future when Christ made the pronouncement "I WILL BUILD"

I dont hate anyone here
the WORLD hates believers
 
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#47
Hi wondering, Never thought you hated me. Don't know Auto9us and don't know what replacement thelogy is?....Unless your talking about The Church and Israel.....And Grace started the day Eve sinned and drew in Adam.
I don't hate you or anyone here.
Misunderstanding...
 

Anto9us

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#48
There are different nuances to the Greek word KOSMOS (world)

In the sense of THE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD
God LOVES the 'world' -- so much that Christ came to die for us all
John 3:16

Apostle John writes "Love NOT 'the world'...

This is KOSMOS in the sense of "the world system"
The world system is diametrically opposed to Christ

1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

These are the verses that describe the LOVE as well as the HATRED
 

Anto9us

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#49
Strongs G2889

Transliteration
kosmos
Pronunciation
ko'-smos (Key)
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Probably from the base of κομίζω (G2865)
  1. an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
  2. ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
  3. the world, the universe
  4. the circle of the earth, the earth
  5. the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
  6. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
  7. world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
    1. the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
  8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
    1. the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
 
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#51
"...When do YOU believe the church began?
I believe it began in Acts.
I believe it began on the day of Pentecost when they were in the upper room.

Jesus said: "And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.” - Luke 24:49 ESV

"And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting." Acts 2:2 ESV
 
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#52
We are all one in Him..IMO the "we" are His people from the beginning... making a division of His people is not IMO His plan as He says

Joh 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Rom_10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Deu_14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe_2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Col_3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Mal_3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Seems to me the question here is when did man step in and form a church..

 
S

SytheF

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#53
Well really it began when Jesus started his ministry by gathering his disciples. I would say it officially came into its own on the day of Pentecost when the followers of Christ witnessed what he'd been teaching them about the holy spirit come to pass and affect each one. The timeline would likely be 33A.D or so.
 

Anto9us

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#54
Seems to me the question here is when did man step in and form a church..
No, the question to me is WHEN Jesus BUILT His church -- after saying, in His lifetime -- "I WILL (future tense) build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
If He was "going to build" something (future tense) then it DID NOT YET EXIST when He spoke those words...
 
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#56
He never changes He always was .. I really believe it has to do with the way we see/use/understand/etc the word church..
 

Anto9us

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#59
Some people (like Catholics) think Peter himself was the ROCK that the church would be built on.

But ROCK in that verse is PETRA -- a feminine noun -- as is also ekklesia, the word for church

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1577&t=KJV

Note that "the assembly of the Israelites" is one of the definitions

EKKLESIA are the CALLED OUT ones, the assembly

Darby Bible used assembly/assemblies instead of church/churches almost every time
 

Anto9us

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#60
In 1 Peter I think Peter is alluding to Hosea's sons who had names like 'not my people' -- 'not obtained mercy' -- then got their names changed.
 

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