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... WHEN DO THE AFTER LIFE START....WHEN WE DIE...

mharold

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I hear all the time people say he or she in heaven or hell but it doesn't say we are judged when we die. The only I see that we call to heaven other than in OT was in Revelation. Where do we get this from?Are there some biblical truth. From what I have read is we are sleep until we call to heaven if you dead and if alive you drop dead and call up to meet the people who are dead in the air. So can so one help me understand this...
 

handy

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To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Also, Jesus told the thief as they were about to die, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise."

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord is by far the most compelling argument against "soul sleep".

For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight— we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8

If, once we shed our "earthly tent" we are simply asleep for thousands and thousands of years...why would Holy Spirit inspire Paul to tell us that to be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord?

Also, if when we die we simply "sleep" for thousands of years, why would Paul face the moral dilemma that he speaks of in Philippians 1:21-26?

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith, so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.


How is it "very much better" to die, if by dying it only means to sleep for thousands of years. If "soul sleep" were a truth...then it would be far, far better for Paul and the other apostles to live as long as possible in our sinful human state to serve the church...because even if they lived to be 100, they would still be "sleeping" far longer than being in their earthly bodies.

To die and to be with Christ in Paradise is a wonderful hope. To die and to be "sleeping"...fully and completely separated from all, our loved ones here, Jesus, the Spirit...that isn't much to look forward to.

We are judged when we die. Those who are given eternal life will be in Paradise...those not, somewhere else. This isn't the second death which will be a full life or full death...life of body and soul or death of body and soul. But, we are consciously aware of being with Christ and He is consciously aware of being with us, otherwise His promise to a man dying on a cross like Him was just a lie.


 

n2thelight

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We are judged when we die. Those who are given eternal life will be in Paradise...those not, somewhere else. This isn't the second death which will be a full life or full death...life of body and soul or death of body and soul. But, we are consciously aware of being with Christ and He is consciously aware of being with us, otherwise His promise to a man dying on a cross like Him was just a lie.
Great post,the above is the only part I don't agree with,per,se,meaning I don't feel we get judged until the white throne,however I guess we must be judged some how,in order to determine which side of the gulf we shall be on.....

Hope that made sense....

Actually,after reading the post again,I do agree,all I did was make things complicated.......
 
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Roof

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In the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.
Lazarus is not sent to to be with the lord but with Abraham.
 

Roof

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And where do you think Abraham is?
Luke16:23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Abraham is within eyesight of the Rich man. The Rich man is in Hades.
 

guibox

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To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Also, Jesus told the thief as they were about to die, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise."

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord is by far the most compelling argument against "soul sleep".

For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight— we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8

If, once we shed our "earthly tent" we are simply asleep for thousands and thousands of years...why would Holy Spirit inspire Paul to tell us that to be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord?

Also, if when we die we simply "sleep" for thousands of years, why would Paul face the moral dilemma that he speaks of in Philippians 1:21-26?

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith, so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.


How is it "very much better" to die, if by dying it only means to sleep for thousands of years. If "soul sleep" were a truth...then it would be far, far better for Paul and the other apostles to live as long as possible in our sinful human state to serve the church...because even if they lived to be 100, they would still be "sleeping" far longer than being in their earthly bodies.

To die and to be with Christ in Paradise is a wonderful hope. To die and to be "sleeping"...fully and completely separated from all, our loved ones here, Jesus, the Spirit...that isn't much to look forward to.

We are judged when we die. Those who are given eternal life will be in Paradise...those not, somewhere else. This isn't the second death which will be a full life or full death...life of body and soul or death of body and soul. But, we are consciously aware of being with Christ and He is consciously aware of being with us, otherwise His promise to a man dying on a cross like Him was just a lie.


And what we have here is a gross ignorance of the context of the verse. We must compare the language of 2 Cor 5 with that of 1 Corinthians 15. Look closely at the language of 2 Corinthians 5:
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
This earthly tent Paul speaks about is our body.

For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
Now this is important. Paul wants to be 'clothed with our dwelling from heaven'. Paul wants to have the spiritual body. Why? Because as 1 Corinthians 15:42-44,50 says:

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body....If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
He doesn't want to be found 'naked', or 'dead'. While we are in this body, we are desiring to be 'clothed' with the spiritual body. Why? "So that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life"

In other words, to put on the immortal spiritual body is to replace death with life.

Notice when this occurs? Notice the wording of 'swallowed up by life'

1 Corinthians 15:51-55:
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.
We see that Paul desires to put on the immortal spiritual body at the resurrection of the dead, not at his physical death. Nowhere is there a mention of the soul in the context of 2 Corinthians 5.

Let's use this to keep going.

Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight— we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8
Paul says in 1 Cor 15 that we cannot go to heaven without the spiritual body. Our flesh and blood bodies cannot go. While we are in our earthly bodies, we cannot be with the Lord. Paul's desire is to be absent from this body so we can be present with the Lord.

1 Cor 15 makes it clear that this occurs when we put on our spiritual body that Paul yearns for to have life, to be present with the Lord, in vs 1-6. Notice that at the resurrection we are 'present with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
When we don't look at the context of what Paul is saying, we are engaging in bad hermenutic. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 is clearly talking about the resurrection body we receive at Christ's second coming, not a disembodied soul.

We are asleep until then so we can receive life.

John 5:28-29
1 Corinthians 15:20-24
Job 14:10-14
 

Saltwater

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With regards to post #7:
When we don't look at the context of what Paul is saying, we are engaging in bad hermenutic. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 is clearly talking about the resurrection body we receive at Christ's second coming, not a disembodied soul.

We are asleep until then so we can receive life."

If soul sleep is true then it looks like I'm going to have to contact the publisher of my Bible & ask them to remove the following:

Isaiah14:9 “Hell (Sheol)from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations. 10 They all shall speak and say to you: ‘Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us? 11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.’

Ezekiel32:21 & Luke 16:19-31 also need to be excised.
 

guibox

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Nov 30, 2004
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With regards to post #7:
When we don't look at the context of what Paul is saying, we are engaging in bad hermenutic. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 is clearly talking about the resurrection body we receive at Christ's second coming, not a disembodied soul.

We are asleep until then so we can receive life."

If soul sleep is true then it looks like I'm going to have to contact the publisher of my Bible & ask them to remove the following:

Isaiah14:9 “Hell (Sheol)from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations. 10 They all shall speak and say to you: ‘Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us? 11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.’

Ezekiel32:21 & Luke 16:19-31 also need to be excised.
Apparently you don't recognize metaphor. Notice the terms 'maggot' and 'worms'. These are not disembodied souls. This is metaphor for the feebleness of death. This is the same language used in Job 21:26

"26They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them."
Power and placement means nothing when you are dead. The 'kings' bring this thought out.

Never mind that you make the OT contradict itself. Ecclesiastes 9:56,10:

5For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6Also their love and their hatred and their envy is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun...10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might, for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave whither thou goest.
Psalms 146:3-4:
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in a son of man in whom there is no help. 4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Job 14:10-14 which says that man dies, sleeps in the grave and awakes at the resurrection where change to immortality comes
10 But a man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.
11 As the water of a lake dries up
or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
12 so he lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, people will not awake
or be roused from their sleep.

13 “If only you would hide me in the grave
and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time
and then remember me!
14 If someone dies, will they live again?
All the days of my hard service
I will wait for my renewal to come.


Nevermind using the OT to support your views. The Hebrews did not believe that the 'nephesh' the 'soul' was a separate, bodiless entity that survives death. Man WAS a nephesh, he didn't HAVE one. The nephesh is translated as 'life'. They believed in the wholistic view of man, not the dualistic view.

So the term 'soul sleep' is inaccurate as there is no disembodied 'soul' to sleep. Man is conditionally immortal, not inherently immortal.
 

Saltwater

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Hi there guibox,

with regards to: Isaiah14:9 “Hell (Sheol)from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations. 10 They all shall speak and say to you: ‘Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us? 11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.’

Apparently you do not recognise people in Sheol talking to each other (v10). If you think this is a metaphor re v10 could you please explain what the metaphor is representing.

With regards to Psalm 146:3-4 I use the HCSB & NKJV which both read as follows noting the context from v2:

2 While I live I will praise the Lord; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being. 3 Do not put your trust in princes, Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish.

Hmm, seems to be a translation variation here!!
 

guibox

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Hi there guibox,

with regards to: Isaiah14:9 “Hell (Sheol)from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations. 10 They all shall speak and say to you: ‘Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us? 11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.’

Apparently you do not recognise people in Sheol talking to each other (v10). If you think this is a metaphor re v10 could you please explain what the metaphor is representing.

With regards to Psalm 146:3-4 I use the HCSB & NKJV which both read as follows noting the context from v2:

2 While I live I will praise the Lord; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being. 3 Do not put your trust in princes, Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish.

Hmm, seems to be a translation variation here!!
Saltwater, it is simply personification intending to show that in the grave, all are equal. Nowhere in all the OT will you find support for Sheol being used in this way literally. Sheol is translated the vast majority of the time as 'the grave'. Look at Ecclesiastes 9 again.

The bottom line is this: Man was not created with an immortal nephesh, he WAS a nephesh. When man sinned, he began to die, "And in dying ye shall die" as God said in the garden of Eden. Thus, even if man was immortal, sin has separated us from the Life Giver. Thus we can say that at the very least, the wicked do not have immortal souls. This is a Greek, not a Hebrew/Christian concept.

The Bible makes it clear that at the resurrection when we receive our spiritual bodies, is when eternal life and immortality is fulfilled. There is absolutely no biblical support whatsoever for a 'body/soul' reunification. The dead are dead. They are sleeping and they need to be woken up to receive eternal life. This is completely nullified and illogical if the very essence of my thinking, cogitating, feeling being is already in heaven.

Look at what William Tyndale the great reformer and translator of the Bible into English said about that in his answer to Thomas More on this subject:

And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection.... And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be) And then what cause is there of the resurrection?—William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk. 4, ch. 4, pp. 180, 181.
And when he [More] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, "If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;" there he stealeth away Christ's argument, wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints should rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect.—Ibid., p. 118.
"Nay, Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again." And I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist [known] it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what cause should be of the resurrection)—Ibid.
 

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