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'When is the apocalypse?

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#21
I agree with you; Jesus did not come the first time to establish the kingdom of God on earth. The Lord came the first time for one purpose: to save mankind from the effect (wages) of sin, which is death. He destroyed the power of death and all of mankind will be raised when He comes again.

However: (here comes my disagreement) at Mathew 28:18 He said “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." That means; at that time, Jesus, having all authority in heaven and on earth, began to rule as king in heaven and earth.

The Church (world-wide congregation of believers) is the real presence of Jesus' kingdom on earth right now. It is the eschatological kingdom breaking into the kingdom of darkness so that we may be the "light of the world." ( Mat 5:14)

When Jesus returns, then we will see that “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” (Rev 11:15)

And then:
Rev 21:1-5a
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.”


And, as you pointed out:
Rev 22:15 "...outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie."

But they may be the same people who are identified at Rev 21:8But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

So it appears to me.
Is the carrot of the literal earths restoration and a literal apocalypse that the church keeps dangling in front of its children speaking to our spiritual desire or our fleshly desire? Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God.

My 'earth' and your 'earth' seem to be different. I read the verses you present from my point of view and have no issue.

For me the creation account in Genesis is one about the spiritual rise and fall of mankind, and Revelation the spiritual restoration using the same symbolism. I believe both are highly symbolic and when the Lord talks about heaven and earth I have this symbolism in mind and my eyes and ears feel opened.

Like I said to someone else here: My views may not suit everyone or be their truth, but it is my truth and I feel that the Spirit has led me here, and am at peace. I'd rather live in the spiritual kingdom of God now, where his will has come to pass, than be in perpetual limbo waiting for the 'end' of the literal world like my fathers before me.
 
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#22
Just live every day as if it is your last. God hasn't told me when the Lord is coming back. I don't really study for it either. We see the signs but who knows????
I just love Him like you do too. :)
Where's the LIKE button?
I agree with you.
For some persons it's today.
I seem not to think about this and know very little about eschatology.
:rolleyes
 
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#23
I agree with you; Jesus did not come the first time to establish the kingdom of God on earth. The Lord came the first time for one purpose: to save mankind from the effect (wages) of sin, which is death. He destroyed the power of death and all of mankind will be raised when He comes again.

However: (here comes my disagreement) at Mathew 28:18 He said “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." That means; at that time, Jesus, having all authority in heaven and on earth, began to rule as king in heaven and earth.

The Church (world-wide congregation of believers) is the real presence of Jesus' kingdom on earth right now. It is the eschatological kingdom breaking into the kingdom of darkness so that we may be the "light of the world." ( Mat 5:14)

When Jesus returns, then we will see that “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” (Rev 11:15)

And then:
Rev 21:1-5a
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.”


And, as you pointed out:
Rev 22:15 "...outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie."

But they may be the same people who are identified at Rev 21:8But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

So it appears to me.
Hi Jim,
Maybe we finally disagree on something!
I believe Jesus DID come to set up the Kingdom of God here on Earth.

If we check the gospels we find that Jesus spoke about the Kingdom more than 100X instead He spoke of salvation very few times.

God from the beginning had determined that Jesus would save mankind...Genesis 3:15, and most certainly He destroyed the power of death and sin over us, just as you've said.

But what did Jesus mean in John 3:3?
He tells Nicodemus that man must be born again, or born from above. IF Jesus meant in John 3:3 that man would not see the Kingdom of God until after death, why would He have stated that it was necessary to be born again to SEE the Kingdom?

Why would He have spent so much time in describing the Kingdom in the parables of the Kingdom in Mathew 13, 14 ?
 

for_his_glory

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#24
You speak of the symbolic as within the symbolism in Revelation. I am speaking of the literal earth and sea that God in the beginning created, even before He created man and set him in the garden. Isaiah 24; Matthew 24:35; 2 Peter 3:10 and Rev 21:1 are speaking about the literal as God will destroy everything on it, but yet the earth remains in ruins as when God is finished with all His judgments He will renew the earth back to its former state as in the Garden of Eden as God ushers down a New Jerusalem which is His kingdom here on earth as for now the kingdom of God dwells in those who are His own.
When I read Genesis i don't see a literal creation story, I see the origin of the fight in each one of our minds between spirit and flesh. And I have confidence in this due to the use of the same symbols in Revelation. Revelation calls the dragon the original serpent for example. All the actors are present: The woman, serpent, sun, moon and stars etc.

God is a spirit and those that worship him must worship in spirit and truth. Why do we cling to the literal? When Stephen saw heaven opened and the son of man at the right hand of God did he literally see this? No, or the others would have seen it as well. I wish to see with those same eyes.

I guess the irrelevance of the physical world in my view is not for everyone and may not be true for them, but it is true for me and where the Spirit has led me.[/QUOTE]

Like you said, these are your views possibly of the thoughts of your mind, I don't know. Even in the literal there is also the Spiritual and that is how I see many things throughout the scriptures. All of us have to see through the literal and the Spiritual in order for us to understand the hidden mysteries only the Holy Spirit can reveal to us.

Just like the word apocalypse and rapture as there are many teachings on it, but yet the words are not found in the Bible nor any supporting scriptures. They only become man's speculations that turn into man's doctrines. Everything is relevant in scripture, but relevance can become at times ones own speculation between the literal and the Spiritual in how they perceive that of what they are reading.
 
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#25
Is the carrot of the literal earths restoration and a literal apocalypse that the church keeps dangling in front of its children speaking to our spiritual desire or our fleshly desire?
It's not "the church" that's dangling anything.
Scripture says that there will be a"great tribulation" (Rev 7:14) and that God will make a new heavens and a new earth. (Rev 7:14)
That's not a "dangle." That's a promise.
Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God.
OK
My 'earth' and your 'earth' seem to be different.
How so?
I read the verses you present from my point of view and have no issue.
OK
For me the creation account in Genesis is one about the spiritual rise and fall of mankind, and Revelation the spiritual restoration using the same symbolism. I believe both are highly symbolic and when the Lord talks about heaven and earth I have this symbolism in mind and my eyes and ears feel opened.
OK. You are entitled to your own personal interpretations and opinions.
But no one else is required to agree with you.
My views may not suit everyone or be their truth, but it is my truth
OOOPS!
Sorry! Do not agree at all.
Something is either truth or it is not truth.
There is no such thing as "My truth" and "your truth."
There is God's truth and there is falsehood.
Psa 119:160a The entirety of Your word is truth,
Jhn 17:17b Your word is truth.
I'd rather live in the spiritual kingdom of God now, where his will has come to pass, than be in perpetual limbo waiting for the 'end' of the literal world like my fathers before me.
What you would and would not like is irrelevant.
The scripture says that this earth will pass away and there will be a new heaven and a new earth. (Rev 7:14)
And the scripture says that there will be a resurrection of all mankind and that those who have done the will of God will inherit the Kingdom of God while those who did not do the will of God will be sent to eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Mat 28:31-46)

There is nothing preventing anyone from living in the Kingdom of God right now except their own self willed rebellion and refusal to submit to the will of God.
Luk 17:20b-21 "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.


Shalom
 
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#26
I believe Jesus DID come to set up the Kingdom of God here on Earth.
NOt in it's fullness. The Church is the eschatological breaking in of the Kingdom in this age.
It will come in its fullness when He returns.
IF Jesus meant in John 3:3 that man would not see the Kingdom of God until after death, why would He have stated that it was necessary to be born again to SEE the Kingdom?
You are correct.
We can live in the kingdom of God as born again believers.
But, until this age comes to an end, we live in enemy territory where the devil controls mankind to murder, destroy and wage wars in which multiple millions are killed.
That will end when Jesus comes again.
Until then, we are His ambassadors, His royal priesthood, representing God's kingdom to the people enslaved to sin by the devil so that they may be set free from death and enter into eternal life in His kingdom.

iakov the fool
 
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#27
NOt in it's fullness. The Church is the eschatological breaking in of the Kingdom in this age.
It will come in its fullness when He returns.

You are correct.
We can live in the kingdom of God as born again believers.
But, until this age comes to an end, we live in enemy territory where the devil controls mankind to murder, destroy and wage wars in which multiple millions are killed.
That will end when Jesus comes again.
Until then, we are His ambassadors, His royal priesthood, representing God's kingdom to the people enslaved to sin by the devil so that they may be set free from death and enter into eternal life in His kingdom.

iakov the fool
Looks like we agree on EVERYTHING!!
:)
 
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#28
It's not "the church" that's dangling anything.
Scripture says that there will be a"great tribulation" (Rev 7:14) and that God will make a new heavens and a new earth. (Rev 7:14)
That's not a "dangle." That's a promise.

OK

How so?

OK

OK. You are entitled to your own personal interpretations and opinions.
But no one else is required to agree with you.

OOOPS!
Sorry! Do not agree at all.
Something is either truth or it is not truth.
There is no such thing as "My truth" and "your truth."
There is God's truth and there is falsehood.
Psa 119:160a The entirety of Your word is truth,
Jhn 17:17b Your word is truth.

What you would and would not like is irrelevant.
The scripture says that this earth will pass away and there will be a new heaven and a new earth. (Rev 7:14)
And the scripture says that there will be a resurrection of all mankind and that those who have done the will of God will inherit the Kingdom of God while those who did not do the will of God will be sent to eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Mat 28:31-46)

There is nothing preventing anyone from living in the Kingdom of God right now except their own self willed rebellion and refusal to submit to the will of God.
Luk 17:20b-21 "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.


Shalom
I don't understand how you can use the scripture that says "the kingdom does not come with observation" and then fight for observable interpretations.

Who of us are clinging to material things? Is God a spirit or material?

There is not much more I can say to you, and I hope I haven't offended you. If I have you may want to question why someone who focuses on the Spirit causes you discomfort.

All the best!
 

JohnDB

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#29
Is it a week from Tuesday?
Someone told me it was a week from Tuesday.
How do I get ready for it?
Should I sell my house and all my goods?
Should I go up on the nearest mountain and wait?
Come on, this is a Christian forum.
Some one should know what to tell me.
I heard that it was going to be later than usual this year.

No one really knows when it's going to show up. There's been a ton of books on it. Several movies and television shows made about it too.

Revelation is written in precise and vague language. Highly metaphoric. For a reason.

God didn't want anyone to know. It's a kind of "Final Exam" of scripture. And the popular theologians won't be able to tell you the info you want.

The very few who can won't tell...just like God didn't. (Duh)

But to repeat Tessa , live every day like it's your last. Time is short and it can't last forever.
 

kiwidan

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#30
Is it a week from Tuesday?
Someone told me it was a week from Tuesday.
How do I get ready for it?
Should I sell my house and all my goods?
Should I go up on the nearest mountain and wait?
Come on, this is a Christian forum.
Some one should know what to tell me.
As far as I am aware of know one knows the day or hour, and if someone says lo here or lo there they are liars. People are liars.
 

kiwidan

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#31
There is scripture that says the time is at hand ,and the time is near , even this is the last days, and that was over 2000 years ago.

Maybe people just don't understand what that means.
 
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for_his_glory

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#32
Apocalypse is that of the destruction by the commands of God during the seven trumpets of Revelations. In the end this present world will be burned up and made new again before God ushers down the New Jerusalem where we will be with the Lord forever. Everything from Genesis to Revelations leads us to Christ in whom is our faith as we endure until His coming on the last day. No man knows the day nor the hour, but that we need to be prepared as a Bride waiting upon her Groom.
 

for_his_glory

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#33
Below is what we need to expect to happen during the first six trumpets sounding that leads up to the seventh where the son of perdition comes to deceive the world and bring much tribulation to the true children of God.

Rev Chapter 8-9 First six trumpets of the apocalypse that God will send upon the world.

Hail and fire can be likened unto meteors that fall from the sky as the brimstone God brought down from heaven striking those in Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19:24. A third of the trees and all the green grass are burned up which makes a third part of the world with a shortage of oxygen in the air that is created from the carbon dioxide from the trees and living plants. I would only imagine the drifting smoke itself would cause respiratory problems for many people.

Seeing that this is Global the intense fire and smoke from all the trees and grass burning can travel for miles causing much more damage throughout the nations. The trees that produce various healthy foods for our well being will become scarce. The green grasses that would probably include crops of wheat, barley, corn and so forth will be destroyed causing a shortage in food. The animals we depend on as a food source will also die as they are left without vegetation they need to live on.

This great mountain burning with fire could be another meteor or even a series of meteors sent down from heaven at one time, but on an extremely larger scale as the third part of the sea is destroyed along with sea life and the third part of the ships that sit in it. The third part of the sea turned to blood by reason of all the animal life that is killed and those men, women and children who are on these ships that are destroyed. Take into consideration the disease that would spread from all the rotted sea life that is rotting away washing up on the shore and the flesh of those who were burned along with the ships.

These ships will more than likely be types of fuel tankers, merchant, fishing and luxury cruises ships traveling the waters. With the third of these ships being destroyed means a third part of the world’s fuel and food supply would be destroyed.

John saw in his vision a great star that is burning like a lamp that falls to earth. In John’s time torches were used as a light source so this star burning like a lamp or a torch could be that of a burning comet falling or a series of comets falling on earth. I can only think it to be many comets as they fall on the third part of rivers and streams as it poisons the third part of the earth’s fresh water supply and causes many to die from the bitter water they drink. This would also kill all fresh water fish leaving man without another food source.

This star is given a name called Wormwood because wormwood is a plant that can be potentially toxic in its pure form and has a bitter aroma to it. In large amounts, it can cause damage to the nervous system, resulting in convulsions, loss of muscle control, and sometimes death. Now we have a third part of the world without fresh water to drink.

With the third part of the sun, moon and stars being darkened this will affect mans source of electricity and heat that is vital to keep a certain degree of the earth warm, and generated power in homes, hospitals and manufacturing plants including nuclear reactors.

Agriculture and navigation would be hard pressed as it takes the solar power from the sun to run the solar cells that produces the energy needed to run farming machinery and trucks to take the produce to manufacturing plants where the produce is then distributed to market.

Vehicles such as cars, ambulances, planes, trains and the list goes on need an energy source from the sun in order to run their engines. The darkness of the third part of the day would be roughly around eight hours of daylight being lost and total darkness of night as the moon and stars are illuminated by the sun at night. A flashlight would be useless to see in the dark as it needs energy from the sun to run the battery that turns the light on.

This much darkness would cause people to panic in the streets creating chaos as the love of many will wax cold, Matthew 24:12. Riots would break out causing looting and lose of life as those who have not will do anything in desperation to take from those who have much.
 

kiwidan

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#34
but that we need to be prepared as a Bride waiting upon her Groom.
I thought the bride is the one who always turns up late not he groom.
 

Razeontherock

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#35
Is it a week from Tuesday?
Someone told me it was a week from Tuesday.
How do I get ready for it?
Should I sell my house and all my goods?
Should I go up on the nearest mountain and wait?
Come on, this is a Christian forum.
Some one should know what to tell me.
It'll be in 1988.

Shortly after 1984, in a Brave New World
 
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#36
It'll be in 1988.

Shortly after 1984, in a Brave New World
Why can't I give this a like??

1984 and Brave New World helped shape my beliefs about government.

"LIKE"
:thumbsup
 

for_his_glory

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#37
I thought the bride is the one who always turns up late not he groom.
Only if they are foolish and unprepared, Matthew 25:1-13.
 
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#38
Only if they are foolish and unprepared, Matthew 25:1-13.
Does the foolish and unprepared bride wait upon the New Jerusalem?
 

for_his_glory

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#39
Does the foolish and unprepared bride wait upon the New Jerusalem?
First they are no part of the bride of Christ as they were not prepared. They can wait all they want upon the New Jerusalem, but will never enter as Jesus does not recognize them.

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
 
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#40
First they are no part of the bride of Christ as they were not prepared. They can wait all they want upon the New Jerusalem, but will never enter as Jesus does not recognize them.
Do you wait upon the New Jerusalem?
 

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