Who Does the Work?

[atpollard]

Romans 8:28-30
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

verse 28: EVERYTHING that happens to us God will use for our own good somehow because God loves us and will somehow allow this to be in His plan for us.

verse 29: For those whom God FOREKNEW....
God FORKNEW,,,He did NOT CHOOSE before the beginning of time.

What He DID CHOOSE is HOW those He foreknew would become saved: God PREDESTINED those He foreknew would choose Him to BECOME CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON.
Jesus would be the firstborn who would have many brothers, or believers.

verse 30: And having thus saved us, or chosen us because He FOREKNEW that we would believe and accept, He called us to Him, and justified us to declare us saved...and those He justified He will also glorify (at our death).

We are told in the above HOW we would be saved,,,
and not WHO would be saved. God desires all men to come to salvation...all those that accept His terms which are clearly spelled out in the N.T.

You have missed my far simpler point.

THOSE foreknown are THOSE predestined are THOSE called are THOSE justified are THOSE glorified. Scripture claims that the exact same people called and justified (The Saints) are the exact same people who will be glorified (the end result of Perseverance).

The Doctrine of Grace is called PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS, because God says that the Saints (called and justified) will Persevere (and be glorified).

It is not Perseverance of the Sinners ... it says nothing about what happens to sinners not called and not justified. Perseverance of the Saints merely claims that God did not lie in Romans 8 and those predestined and called and justified, will also be glorified just as God said he would.

Now if you wish to argue that God did not mean THOSE when He said THOSE in Romans 8:28-30, I am listening.

 

[iLOVE]

If Paul tells us not to live according to the flesh, it must surely mean that it is our choice and up to our will NOT TO.

As a Christian, we do not have a choice; either you are with Christ or against Christ (not saved) (Matthew 12:30). You and JLB believe and are promoting the sin of self sufficiency and self righteousness (Jude 1:4 KJV). Jesus said deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow me (Luke 9:23).

Our willpower is routed in flesh. The Christian is doomed to failure if he thinks he can face the sin business and simply say yes or no. That's not the way it works. Those who try that (and almost all have) will conclude by failing every time. You may win for awhile, but after awhile, you're going to fail.

Now, stop and think about this for a moment: If it were possible for us to defeat sin and the attacks of Satan by willpower, then Jesus would not have had to come down here and die on a Cross. He could have merely taught us how to function within our willpower, and that would have solved the problem.

However, He didn't do that, did He? The truth is, the problem of sin is so deadly that it took the Cross to defeat this monster, and even then, we have to have the help of the Holy Spirit to get this thing done. That's why Paul said, "But if the Spirit (Holy Spirit) of Him (God the Father) who raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you (and He definitely does), He who raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies (give us power in our mortal bodies that we might live a victorious life) by His Spirit who dwells in you (we have the same Power in us, through the Spirit, that raised Christ from the dead, and is available to us only on the premise of the Cross and our Faith in that Sacrifice)" (Rom. 8:11).

This tells us that sin is so powerful that it takes the same power to overcome this thing as it did to raise Jesus from the dead, which, of course, is the power of the Holy Spirit. Understanding that, we should come to the conclusion that our personal willpower is totally inadequate.

We must ever understand that God looks at the sinner not at all, because there is no point. He knows instantly what the sinner is. He looks at the Offering, and the only Offering that He will accept is the Sacrifice of Christ. Any other offering is immediately rejected!

The only way to God is through Jesus Christ (Jn. 14:6).
The only way to Jesus Christ is through the Cross (Lk. 9:23).
The only way to the Cross is by an abnegation of self (Lk. 9:23).”

JSM

 

[JLB]

You have missed my far simpler point.

THOSE foreknown are THOSE predestined are THOSE called are THOSE justified are THOSE glorified. Scripture claims that the exact same people called and justified (The Saints) are the exact same people who will be glorified (the end result of Perseverance).

The Doctrine of Grace is called PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS, because God says that the Saints (called and justified) will Persevere (and be glorified).

It is not Perseverance of the Sinners ... it says nothing about what happens to sinners not called and not justified. Perseverance of the Saints merely claims that God did not lie in Romans 8 and those predestined and called and justified, will also be glorified just as God said he would.

Now if you wish to argue that God did not mean THOSE when He said THOSE in Romans 8:28-30, I am listening.

Those who predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, will be glorified, IF they are conformed to the image of His Son.

This is the context.


And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:28-30


Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


This chain of knowledge is built upon the understanding of those whom He predestined being conformed to the image of His Son.


Conformed denotes a process; a process of becoming...


This concept is seen throughout the New Testament writings.


Example #1 -


But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12

• to them gave he power to become the sons of God

Most read this as those who believe are sons of God.


Example #2 -


For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Corinthians 5:21

• that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Most people read this as we are the righteousness of God.


The promise of being justified and glorified are predicated on being conformed to the image of His Son, who walked in obedience to the voice of God.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

You offered a lot, so let me respond to one point at a time.
1. When did the last Apostle die?
2. When was the last Early Church Father born? (Augustine, for example).

FYI: John was traditionally described as AD 6 to AD 100 and Augustine of Hippo was 13 November 354 – 28 August 430 AD.

Can you see the problem that I have with blanket statements like “the Early Church Fathers were taught by the Apostles”?

I even gave you an example of an early church father.
Augustine is not considered to be an early church father by most theologians since he was born about 400 years after Jesus.

Most believe the ECFs are before 325AD. Before the church became corrupted by entering into agreement with the Roman govt. after Constantine and the Edict of Milan.

The ECFs were alive while the Apostles were still alive...they were taught by them OR they were taught by someone the Apostle taught. I don't know how many more times I can repeat this. You can take it or leave it...but that's history.

I should start a thread on this...

You and I were taught by the Apostles just as much as the Early Church Fathers whose writings you attempt to elevate to such importance. We have the exact same Gospel written by the Apostle John that the ECF read. We have the exact same letters from the Apostle Paul that the ECF read. In some cases, we are at a greater advantage than some of the ECF since we have all of the Apostolic writings accessible to us, while some ECF might have had limited access to some of the works.

They had access to all of the works. THEY are the ones that put the N.T. together...

When there's a discrepancy in what is believed by reading the N.T., I like to go to them to find out what the Apostles EXPOUNDED on when the ECFs were being taught. Is OSAS true?
Are works necessary? And other such important doctrine. If you and I are reading the same Apostles, why do we come up with differing ideas?

What is better...reading a page about Jesus or finding out directly from HIM what HE thought about different things? Why don't we agree if we're reading the same bible? Perhaps because we listen to MEN that are very recent and have NOT spoken to the early Christians that knew the truth?

We also have the benefit of the ecumenical councils to discard the teachings of wolves that had infiltrated the early Church, some even denying Christ as both God and Man.

Right. And it's the Early Fathers that dealt with heresy.
It's thanks to them that we have the creed, for instance.

To repeat, most theologians do NOT consider Augustine to be an ECF. Exactly because he was born in the 400's. Quite a long time after Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe. The dating of his letter to the church in Corinth is challenged as potentially second century by someone other than Clement I (but it is not my place to argue the origin of manuscripts). What bothers me about Clement’s letter to Corinth is how someone taught by the Apostle Peter and the Apostle Paul could so contradict the message of Jesus taught in the Gospels. Jesus taught about “leaders” as servants to all and Clement wrote about the duty to submit to “superiors” in the Church hierarchy. The message of Clement runs contrary to Paul’s teaching on the Church as the Body of Christ with all members being important ... especially the weaker members.

How do you come up with this idea?

Of course we should follow the leaders of that time...they were teaching correct doctrine when some were trying to change that doctrine and teach heresy.

And Jesus and Paul were against following our leaders?

Hebrews 13:7
7Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.


James 3:1
1Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

Matthew 7:12
12“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

(were the prophets like everyone else, or did they have a special place in God's plan)

Timothy 3:2
An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

Ephesians 4:11-12 (speaking of Jesus)
11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;


and many more. We are not to "lord it over them" as Jesus said, we are to treat each other with love and respect and as equals in the eyes of God,,,this does not mean that Jesus or Paul did not understand that there are elders in the Church that are to teach and lead so that we could learn God's ways.

Who to follow? Jesus and Paul with their message of servant equality, or Clement with his message of respect and submission to established Church Hierarchy and authority.

Those that did not adhere to the church hierarchy were washed away by heresies. The church has a reason for existing. Perhaps we could do away with all our leaders and teachers and see what would happen.

Jesus Himself ordered the Apostles to go into all the world and teach.
Matthew 28:20 Jesus said:
20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Where the writings of Clement agree with God-breathed scripture, I accept the opinions of Clement as a fellow Christian and where the writings of Clement contradict God-breathed scripture, I choose Scripture over Clement.

That is how I view ALL the Early Church Fathers (and the later theologians like Luther and Calvin and Wesley and Spurgeon and Sproul as well).

I agree...but I have still to find a contradiction with the N.T. writings in the ECFs. This does not mean I've read everything...but I see no conflict.

 

[GodsGrace]

You have missed my far simpler point.

THOSE foreknown are THOSE predestined are THOSE called are THOSE justified are THOSE glorified. Scripture claims that the exact same people called and justified (The Saints) are the exact same people who will be glorified (the end result of Perseverance).

The Doctrine of Grace is called PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS, because God says that the Saints (called and justified) will Persevere (and be glorified).

It is not Perseverance of the Sinners ... it says nothing about what happens to sinners not called and not justified. Perseverance of the Saints merely claims that God did not lie in Romans 8 and those predestined and called and justified, will also be glorified just as God said he would.

Now if you wish to argue that God did not mean THOSE when He said THOSE in Romans 8:28-30, I am listening.

Great example of what I posted above about reading the same exact scripture and coming up with two different ideas.

Because God FOREKNEW WHO would be saved...
does NOT mean HE chose who would be saved.

Again...Romans 8:28-30 is speaking about HOW a person will be saved...by conforming to the image of God's Son, Jesus -- the first of many.

God, by HIS laws, made available salvation to ALL men.
For God desires no one to be lost, but wishes that all would come to believe and be saved.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Jesus said He would draw ALL men to Himself:

John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

But we must adhere to God's plan of salvation:

Acts 16:30-31
30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

The Jailer Converted

31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Paul did not tell the jailer to not worry because it depended on God to choose him or not.

And, last but not least,,,our faith must last our entire life:

John 8:31 Jesus said:
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;


You say you trust in Paul and Jesus...
Do you not trust everything they said?

 

[atpollard]

As to Ephesians 1:13-14
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Verse 13 tells us that after listening to the message of truth and then having believed we were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit OF PROMISE.

Verse 14 tells us that the Holy Spirit is given to us as PLEDGE of our inheritance,,,with VIEW to our inheritance.

What does the word “Pledge” mean?

 

[atpollard]

Great example of what I posted above about reading the same exact scripture and coming up with two different ideas.

Because God FOREKNEW WHO would be saved...
does NOT mean HE chose who would be saved.

God choosing who will be saved is called PREDESTINATION. You said you disagreed with PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS which is the Doctrine that those whom God Justifies (the Saints), no matter how they reached that position of being saved, will Persevere until God ultimately Glorifies them.

[John 6:44] "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

• Jesus “WILL” raise him, or Jesus “MAY” raise him?
• Perseverance of the Saints!

[Philipians 1:6] [For I am] confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

• God “WILL” perfect what He began, or God “MAY” perfect what He began?
• Perseverance of the Saints!

You keep stating disbelief of one thing and refuting my response by discussing some completely different doctrine. You are correct, the verses that prove Perseverance of the Saints do not necessarily prove Predestination ... but no one ever claimed that they did.

God bless.

 

[GodsGrace]

God choosing who will be saved is called PREDESTINATION. You said you disagreed with PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS which is the Doctrine that those whom God Justifies (the Saints), no matter how they reached that position of being saved, will Persevere until God ultimately Glorifies them.

You keep stating disbelief of one thing and refuting my response by discussing some completely different doctrine. You are correct, the verses that prove Perseverance of the Saints do not necessarily prove Predestination ... but no one ever claimed that they did.

God bless.

Except that God does NOT choose who will be saved.
I brought up P of the S because I explained the ENTIRE salvation process as is explained in the N.T.

I posted just one verse that shows we must persevere till the end...there are many more. Of course, the reformed will not know they are truly saved UNTIL the end of their life because God does the choosing so how could they be absolutely sure they are a chosen one? They cannot.

I refute the response you give the best way I know how.
The whole soteriological sequence was posted by me.
One discussion does sometimes lead to another.

Predestination is incorrect because WE choose to adhere to God's plan of salvation or not.

P of the S is also incorrect since just that one verse tells us we must continue in our belief and there are many more.

All of TULIP is incorrect and one doctrine of TULIP DOES LEAD to all the others. I think I've explained this already.

Total Depravity is wrong...and so all the other doctrine has to line up to make TD be shown to be correct - even though it is not.
When we stray from the truth....the doctrine of Christ becomes complicated.

 

[atpollard]

Those who predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, will be glorified, IF they are conformed to the image of His Son.

This is the context.


And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:28-30

I do not see a single IF in any of that scripture. I see a paragraph all about God’s purpose and the actions that God will do.

However, I was simply commenting on the Perseverance of the Saints ... those SAVED will all be GLORIFIED. Do you see any indication in those verses that those whom God has CALLED and JUSTIFIED will not also be GLORIFIED? I see nothing in “THOSE whom He justified, He also glorified” to suggest that only SOME OF THOSE whom He justified will also be glorified.

 

[GodsGrace]

What does the word “Pledge” mean?

Here is what it means:


Pledge

1. a solemn promise or undertaking.
2. LAW
   
   a thing that is given as security for the fulfilment of a contract or the payment of a debt and is liable to forfeiture in the event of failure.​

You'll like no. 1
I like no. 2 because it is a legal definition, just as Justification is a legal definition.

God declares us saved.
We are given the Holy Spirit as a pledge, or an earnest, IF we fulfill our contract with God and hold on to our faith in Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do not see a single IF in any of that scripture. I see a paragraph all about God’s purpose and the actions that God will do.

However, I was simply commenting on the Perseverance of the Saints ... those SAVED will all be GLORIFIED. Do you see any indication in those verses that those whom God has CALLED and JUSTIFIED will not also be GLORIFIED? I see nothing in “THOSE whom He justified, He also glorified” to suggest that only SOME OF THOSE whom He justified will also be glorified.

IF we are conformed to the image of God's son we will be saved.
Romans 8:28-29 clearly states that this is God's plan from the beginning to time.

There are MANY IFs and continues and fallings in the N.T. but this will get us into a discussion that has been banned.

Anyone that thinks he is saved forever is sadly mistaken since it depends on his faith.

 

[JLB]

However, I was simply commenting on the Perseverance of the Saints ... those SAVED will all be GLORIFIED. Do you see any indication in those verses that those whom God has CALLED and JUSTIFIED will not also be GLORIFIED? I see nothing in “THOSE whom He justified, He also glorified” to suggest that only SOME OF THOSE whom He justified will also be glorified.

Where does the phrase (context) conformed to the image of His Son fit in to your equation?

The reason you don’t see the condition for being justified and glorified is, you are ignoring the condition for them.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:29

You are trying to disconnect the promise from the condition.

Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Romans 8:30

The same ones He justifies and glorifies, are these He called to be conformed to the image of His Son.

The condition for being justified is obedience.

God doesn’t justify apart from obedience.

JLB

 

[iLOVE]

The condition for being justified is obedience.

God doesn’t justify apart from obedience.

This is false doctrine!

Justification delivers us from the penalty of sin, while sanctification delivers us from the power of sin.

Justification gives me the ability to get back up from every failure no matter how many times and stand up and go through this process and learn it. Justification gives us a legal standing with God that is not cancelled because of the acts of sin. So if I fail (and we will) at this same thing a thousand times - God forbid! We are a work in progress. Remember Jesus said I did not come to condemn (John 3:17).

Justification is not what we do, and not what I am, and not what I worked for. It is what Jesus did and my faith in it that gives me the standing with God that I need to carry on my Christian experience. Sometime I do it well, and sometimes I do it not so well, but his justifying Grace will not fail unless my faith fails. It is just if I have never sinned and just if I have always obeyed.

Pastor Loren Larson

 

[JLB]

This is false doctrine!

Justification delivers us from the penalty of sin, while sanctification delivers us from the power of sin.

Justification gives me the ability to get back up from every failure no matter how many times and stand up and go through this process and learn it. Justification gives us a legal standing with God that is not cancelled because of the acts of sin. So if I fail (and we will) at this same thing a thousand times - God forbid! We are a work in progress. Remember Jesus said I did not come to condemn (John 3:17).

Justification is not what we do, and not what I am, and not what I worked for. It is what Jesus did and my faith in it that gives me the standing with God that I need to carry on my Christian experience. Sometime I do it well, and sometimes I do it not so well, but his justifying Grace will not fail unless my faith fails. It is just if I have never sinned and just if I have always obeyed.

Pastor Loren Larson

Obedience is the only way we are justified, through the obedience of faith.

The obedience of faith simply means God speaks to us to do something in which we receive faith from Him, and we do what He asks us to do.

This is the principle by which faith works to produce the intended divine result, whether justification or salvation or healing....


That’s why it’s called the obedience of faith.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son

The “work” by which Abraham was justified was his obedience to God to offer his son Isaac on the altar.


When the Lord spoke to Abraham to do this he received faith. However his faith was dormant and inactive until he obeyed the word from God by which he received faith.

• Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Can you see that Abraham’s obedience is what made his faith he received from God complete to produce the intended divine result?


Wherever we see people operating by faith we see that God spoke to them to do something and they obeyed what He said to do.


Examples:


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7

God told Noah to build an Ark, Noah built the Ark and was declared to be righteous which is according to faith.

• became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

The Lord spoke to Abraham to get out of his country to the land He would show him.

Abraham obeyed the word by which he received faith and was justified.


This foreshadowed how the Gentiles would be justified by hearing and obeying the Gospel, through the obedience of faith.


Here is an example from the New Testament -


And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

• came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.”

She acted in obedience to how God moved upon her to touch the hem of His garment so she would be healed.

• Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.

The faith she received from God was able to produce the divine result of healing because she acted upon the word in her heart to “touch the hem of His garment.


Faith without this corresponding action of obedience is dead, dormant and inactive, and incomplete, unable to function to produce the intended divine result just as a body without the spirit is dead and incomplete, unable to function.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26



JLB

 

[iLOVE]

Obedience is the only way we are justified, through the obedience of faith.

The obedience of faith simply means God speaks to us to do something in which we receive faith from Him, and we do what He asks us to do.

This is the principle by which faith works to produce the intended divine result, whether justification or salvation or healing....


That’s why it’s called the obedience of faith.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son

The “work” by which Abraham was justified was his obedience to God to offer his son Isaac on the altar.


When the Lord spoke to Abraham to do this he received faith. However his faith was dormant and inactive until he obeyed the word from God by which he received faith.

• Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Can you see that Abraham’s obedience is what made his faith he received from God complete to produce the intended divine result?


Wherever we see people operating by faith we see that God spoke to them to do something and they obeyed what He said to do.


Examples:


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7

God told Noah to build an Ark, Noah built the Ark and was declared to be righteous which is according to faith.

• became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

The Lord spoke to Abraham to get out of his country to the land He would show him.

Abraham obeyed the word by which he received faith and was justified.


This foreshadowed how the Gentiles would be justified by hearing and obeying the Gospel, through the obedience of faith.


Here is an example from the New Testament -


And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

• came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.”

She acted in obedience to how God moved upon her to touch the hem of His garment so she would be healed.

• Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.

The faith she received from God was able to produce the divine result of healing because she acted upon the word in her heart to “touch the hem of His garment.


Faith without this corresponding action of obedience is dead, dormant and inactive, and incomplete, unable to function to produce the intended divine result just as a body without the spirit is dead and incomplete, unable to function.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26



JLB

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

“8 For by Grace (the Goodness of God) are you Saved through Faith (Faith in Christ, with the Cross ever as its Object); and that not of yourselves (none of this is of us, but all is of Him): it is the Gift of God (anytime the word “Gift” is used, God is speaking of His Son and His Substitutionary Work on the Cross, which makes all of this possible):

9 Not of works (man cannot merit Salvation, irrespective what he does), lest any man should boast (boast in his own ability and strength; we are allowed to boast only in the Cross [Gal. 6:14]).”

All works must be produced and birth by the Holy Spirit or it is dead works. The "Golden Bell and the Pomegranate" must bounce against each other or it is tingling cymbal and sounding brass. The Golden Bell = The Gift of the Spirit, and the Pomegranate = The Fruit of the Spirit (Exodus 28:34). We need both to be in operation.

We need "The Golden Bells (The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the spirit) and the Pomegranates (The Fruit of the Holy Spirit that gives us victory over sin) Exodus 28:34 NIV. If you have two bells and no fruit bouncing against each other you have 1 Corinthians 13:1, clanging cymbals.

One without the other produces an inconsistency and it is a problem. To say you don't need both is doubt and unbelief which is never acceptable to God. The Bell presents the power and the Pomegranate presents relationship. You must have the development of both. These are two different works of the Holy Spirit; the fruits and the gifts. The Golden Bells and the Pomegranate is a TYPE.

Faith placed exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus, will always produce proper works by the Holy Spirit. This is the only Faith God will recognize. Anything and everything that is not of the Spirit is "dead faith." Lifeless Faith is profitless (rotten fruit). James 2:14-18

2 And the Angel of the Lord (actually, the Lord Himself) appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush (40 years in the desert was needed to humble the strength of the “flesh” and destroy its hope; the possible king of Egypt was now an obscure shepherd): and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. (The flame of fire in the lowly desert bush — the emblem of Deity and Humanity of Christ — and the great name “I AM” proceeding out from the fire revealed this Almighty Power to Moses. If it’s done in the flesh, it will consume the person, i.e., “the bush”; however, if it’s done by the Power of the Holy Spirit, the bush will burn and not be consumed.)”

The Way Of The Spirit
Focus: The Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
Object Of Faith: The Cross of Christ (Romans 6:1-14)
Power Source: The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:1-2, 11)
Results: Victory (Romans 6:14)

Man's Way
Focus: Works.
Object Of Faith: Performance.
Power Source: Self.
Results: Defeat!

The only way to God is through Jesus Christ (John 14:6)...the only way to Jesus Christ is by the Means of the Cross (Luke 14:27). The only way to the Cross is a denial of self (Luke 9:23). If any person tries to come any other way, Jesus says, "they are a thief and a robber" (John 10:1).

1. Jesus Christ is the source of all blessings.
2. The Cross is the means by which all blessings are given.
3. The object of our faith must be Christ and the Cross.
4. That being done, the Holy Spirit will greatly help us.

JSM

 

[JLB]

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

“8 For by Grace (the Goodness of God) are you Saved through Faith (Faith in Christ, with the Cross ever as its Object); and that not of yourselves (none of this is of us, but all is of Him): it is the Gift of God (anytime the word “Gift” is used, God is speaking of His Son and His Substitutionary Work on the Cross, which makes all of this possible):

9 Not of works (man cannot merit Salvation, irrespective what he does), lest any man should boast (boast in his own ability and strength; we are allowed to boast only in the Cross [Gal. 6:14]).”

All works must be produced and birth by the Holy Spirit or it is dead works. The "Golden Bell and the Pomegranate" must bounce against each other or it is tingling cymbal and sounding brass. The Golden Bell = The Gift of the Spirit, and the Pomegranate = The Fruit of the Spirit (Exodus 28:34). We need both to be in operation.

We need "The Golden Bells (The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the spirit) and the Pomegranates (The Fruit of the Holy Spirit that gives us victory over sin) Exodus 28:34 NIV. If you have two bells and no fruit bouncing against each other you have 1 Corinthians 13:1, clanging cymbals.

One without the other produces an inconsistency and it is a problem. To say you don't need both is doubt and unbelief which is never acceptable to God. The Bell presents the power and the Pomegranate presents relationship. You must have the development of both. These are two different works of the Holy Spirit; the fruits and the gifts. The Golden Bells and the Pomegranate is a TYPE.

Faith placed exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus, will always produce proper works by the Holy Spirit. This is the only Faith God will recognize. Anything and everything that is not of the Spirit is "dead faith." Lifeless Faith is profitless (rotten fruit). James 2:14-18

2 And the Angel of the Lord (actually, the Lord Himself) appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush (40 years in the desert was needed to humble the strength of the “flesh” and destroy its hope; the possible king of Egypt was now an obscure shepherd): and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. (The flame of fire in the lowly desert bush — the emblem of Deity and Humanity of Christ — and the great name “I AM” proceeding out from the fire revealed this Almighty Power to Moses. If it’s done in the flesh, it will consume the person, i.e., “the bush”; however, if it’s done by the Power of the Holy Spirit, the bush will burn and not be consumed.)”

The Way Of The Spirit
Focus: The Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
Object Of Faith: The Cross of Christ (Romans 6:1-14)
Power Source: The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:1-2, 11)
Results: Victory (Romans 6:14)

Man's Way
Focus: Works.
Object Of Faith: Performance.
Power Source: Self.
Results: Defeat!

The only way to God is through Jesus Christ (John 14:6)...the only way to Jesus Christ is by the Means of the Cross (Luke 14:27). The only way to the Cross is a denial of self (Luke 9:23). If any person tries to come any other way, Jesus says, "they are a thief and a robber" (John 10:1).

1. Jesus Christ is the source of all blessings.
2. The Cross is the means by which all blessings are given.
3. The object of our faith must be Christ and the Cross.
4. That being done, the Holy Spirit will greatly help us.

JSM

Your commentary doesn’t stand up to the truth from the scriptures.


Obedience is the only way we are justified, through the obedience of faith.

The obedience of faith simply means God speaks to us to do something in which we receive faith from Him, and we do what He asks us to do.

This is the principle by which faith works to produce the intended divine result, whether justification or salvation or healing....


That’s why it’s called the obedience of faith.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son

The “work” by which Abraham was justified was his obedience to God to offer his son Isaac on the altar.


When the Lord spoke to Abraham to do this he received faith. However his faith was dormant and inactive until he obeyed the word from God by which he received faith.

• Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Can you see that Abraham’s obedience is what made his faith he received from God complete to produce the intended divine result?


Wherever we see people operating by faith we see that God spoke to them to do something and they obeyed what He said to do.


Examples:


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7

God told Noah to build an Ark, Noah built the Ark and was declared to be righteous which is according to faith.

• became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

The Lord spoke to Abraham to get out of his country to the land He would show him.

Abraham obeyed the word by which he received faith and was justified.


This foreshadowed how the Gentiles would be justified by hearing and obeying the Gospel, through the obedience of faith.


Here is an example from the New Testament -


And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

• came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.”

She acted in obedience to how God moved upon her to touch the hem of His garment so she would be healed.

• Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.

The faith she received from God was able to produce the divine result of healing because she acted upon the word in her heart to “touch the hem of His garment.


Faith without this corresponding action of obedience is dead, dormant and inactive, and incomplete, unable to function to produce the intended divine result just as a body without the spirit is dead and incomplete, unable to function.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26



JLB

 

[iLOVE]

Your commentary doesn’t stand up to the truth from the scriptures.


Obedience is the only way we are justified, through the obedience of faith.

The obedience of faith simply means God speaks to us to do something in which we receive faith from Him, and we do what He asks us to do.

This is the principle by which faith works to produce the intended divine result, whether justification or salvation or healing....


That’s why it’s called the obedience of faith.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son

The “work” by which Abraham was justified was his obedience to God to offer his son Isaac on the altar.


When the Lord spoke to Abraham to do this he received faith. However his faith was dormant and inactive until he obeyed the word from God by which he received faith.

• Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Can you see that Abraham’s obedience is what made his faith he received from God complete to produce the intended divine result?


Wherever we see people operating by faith we see that God spoke to them to do something and they obeyed what He said to do.


Examples:


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7

God told Noah to build an Ark, Noah built the Ark and was declared to be righteous which is according to faith.

• became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

The Lord spoke to Abraham to get out of his country to the land He would show him.

Abraham obeyed the word by which he received faith and was justified.


This foreshadowed how the Gentiles would be justified by hearing and obeying the Gospel, through the obedience of faith.


Here is an example from the New Testament -


And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

• came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.”

She acted in obedience to how God moved upon her to touch the hem of His garment so she would be healed.

• Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.

The faith she received from God was able to produce the divine result of healing because she acted upon the word in her heart to “touch the hem of His garment.


Faith without this corresponding action of obedience is dead, dormant and inactive, and incomplete, unable to function to produce the intended divine result just as a body without the spirit is dead and incomplete, unable to function.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26



JLB

Because of your faith not being placed and maintained in Christ and Him Crucified, but in faith in Christ and obedience, you have not been granted “Righteousness.” Your triple moral ability to see, hear, and understand every Word that God has ever spoken in Truth and Righteousness has been blocked by the Holy Spirit. You are preaching another Jesus that is not in the Bible in the letter of the law that kills.

This is why Jesus said:

“13 Enter you in at the strait gate (this is the Door, Who is Jesus [Jn. 10:1]): for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat (proclaims the fact of many and varied religions of the world, which are false, and lead to eternal hellfire):

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it (every contrite heart earnestly desires to be among the “few”; the requirements are greater than most are willing to accept).”

I pray that God gives you Grace to see, hear, and understand Truth in its "Righteous" context. Please study the teaching of Righteousness I have posted under “Biblical Growth and Study.”

 

[JLB]

Because of your faith not being placed and maintained in Christ and Him Crucified,

I have asked you three times now to please explain to us, how we “place our faith” (the gift we have received from Him when we heard the Gospel), in Christ.

Faith is a noun. It is substance.

Faith is a thing.

Are you saying we are to give our faith back to Him?

It’s obvious you don’t know what faith is, or how faith works.

You have ignored all the scriptures and examples I presented, choosing to keep repeating the same thing that makes no sense.

We are to believe in Jesus Christ.

We are to trust in Jesus Christ.

We are to obey Jesus Christ.

We have faith from God.

Our faith is the substance of the salvation we hope for.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

• He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Because of your faith not being placed and maintained in Christ and Him Crucified, but in faith in Christ and obedience, you have not been granted “Righteousness.” Your triple moral ability to see, hear, and understand every Word that God has ever spoken in Truth and Righteousness has been blocked by the Holy Spirit. You are preaching another Jesus that is not in the Bible in the letter of the law that kills.

This is why Jesus said:

“13 Enter you in at the strait gate (this is the Door, Who is Jesus [Jn. 10:1]): for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat (proclaims the fact of many and varied religions of the world, which are false, and lead to eternal hellfire):

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it (every contrite heart earnestly desires to be among the “few”; the requirements are greater than most are willing to accept).”

I pray that God gives you Grace to see, hear, and understand Truth in its "Righteous" context. Please study the teaching of Righteousness I have posted under “Biblical Growth and Study.”

Hi iLOVE...
I went and looked at your thread in Biblical Growth and Study on the topic of God's Righteousness.

Here are two paragraphs from that thread:

“Imputed Righteousness” is Righteousness that we do not earn, and cannot earn, and neither can we merit such. It is freely given to the believing sinner upon confession of Faith in Christ. It is the only type of Righteousness that God will accept, because it’s based on the perfect Righteousness of Christ. It is obtained by evidencing Faith in Christ and His Perfect Sacrifice of Himself.

And herein lies the problem, which regards my O.P.
It is often heard that our righteousness is as filthy rags to God.

In your paragraph highlighted above, you state that
1. we cannot earn or merit such (righteousness).
2. It is freely given to the believer upon confession of faith in Christ.
3. It is the only type of righteousness that God will accept...
4. ...Because it's based on the righteousness of Christ.
5. It is obtained by evidencing faith in Christ.

I could remark on each of the above but the post would become very long. Let me ask you this:
1. What does righteousness mean?
2. What does number 5 mean?

You first say that we cannot earn it...and then in 5 you say that it is obtained by evidencing faith in Christ. How is this done?

*****************************************************************

In the second paragraph I'd like to question, you stated:

Therefore, no man or woman can see, hear, or understand if "Righteousness is not awarded and will be operating from a make believe and pretend salvation that Jesus says that they may have a name but they are dead (Rev. 3:1). Everything they have and everything in their life will become a hinderance to them because of the "Law of sin and death (Rom. 8:2)." Confusion - conflict and death.

What exactly does the above mean?

Create two posts if you wish.
I may have to log off soon, but I look forward to your reply.
Sometimes we use different terms to mean the same idea...perhaps this is one of those cases.

I DO believe this is a very important subject matter and we're posting also for those reading along.
Exactly WHEN do you believe a person becomes lost?