Who Does the Work?

[atpollard]

Here is what it means:


Pledge

1. a solemn promise or undertaking.
2. LAW
   
   a thing that is given as security for the fulfilment of a contract or the payment of a debt and is liable to forfeiture in the event of failure.​

You'll like no. 1
I like no. 2 because it is a legal definition, just as Justification is a legal definition.

God declares us saved.
We are given the Holy Spirit as a pledge, or an earnest, IF we fulfill our contract with God and hold on to our faith in Him.

I agree with #2 as well, but you have the roles reversed. God put up the PLEDGE/SURETY because God is the one who must fulfill the terms of the contract ... we are just “God’s possession”, the object that God claims when He fulfills His contract.

 

[atpollard]

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:29

You are trying to disconnect the promise from the condition.

You are confused about WHO is doing WHAT in that passage.

He [God] foreknew (Not you foreknew or I foreknew).
He [God] predestined (Not you predestined or I predestined).
You and I are the ‘object’ of God (subject) and predestined (verb), so it is God who will do the work and we will “be conformed”. (Not you will conform yourself or I will conform myself).

 

[iLOVE]

Hi iLOVE...
I went and looked at your thread in Biblical Growth and Study on the topic of God's Righteousness.

Here are two paragraphs from that thread:

“Imputed Righteousness” is Righteousness that we do not earn, and cannot earn, and neither can we merit such. It is freely given to the believing sinner upon confession of Faith in Christ. It is the only type of Righteousness that God will accept, because it’s based on the perfect Righteousness of Christ. It is obtained by evidencing Faith in Christ and His Perfect Sacrifice of Himself.

And herein lies the problem, which regards my O.P.
It is often heard that our righteousness is as filthy rags to God.

In your paragraph highlighted above, you state that
1. we cannot earn or merit such (righteousness).
2. It is freely given to the believer upon confession of faith in Christ.
3. It is the only type of righteousness that God will accept...
4. ...Because it's based on the righteousness of Christ.
5. It is obtained by evidencing faith in Christ.

I could remark on each of the above but the post would become very long. Let me ask you this:
1. What does righteousness mean?
2. What does number 5 mean?

You first say that we cannot earn it...and then in 5 you say that it is obtained by evidencing faith in Christ. How is this done?

*****************************************************************

In the second paragraph I'd like to question, you stated:

Therefore, no man or woman can see, hear, or understand if "Righteousness is not awarded and will be operating from a make believe and pretend salvation that Jesus says that they may have a name but they are dead (Rev. 3:1). Everything they have and everything in their life will become a hinderance to them because of the "Law of sin and death (Rom. 8:2)." Confusion - conflict and death.

What exactly does the above mean?

Create two posts if you wish.
I may have to log off soon, but I look forward to your reply.
Sometimes we use different terms to mean the same idea...perhaps this is one of those cases.

I DO believe this is a very important subject matter and we're posting also for those reading along.
Exactly WHEN do you believe a person becomes lost?

Bible Study - The Study of Righteousness - For with the heart man believes unto Righteousness...Romans 10:10

“Imputed Righteousness” is Righteousness that we do not earn, and cannot earn, and neither can we merit such. It is freely given to the believing sinner upon confession of Faith in Christ. It is the only type of Righteousness that God will accept, because it’s based on the perfect Righteousness...

christianforums.net

Please study this above one hour a day...take notes...then teach others.

 

[JLB]

He [God] foreknew (Not you foreknew or I foreknew).

I agree.

He [God] predestined (Not you predestined or I predestined).

I agree.

You and I are the ‘object’ of God (subject) and predestined (verb), so it is God who will do the work and we will “be conformed”. (Not you will conform yourself or I will conform myself).

I disagree.


I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:1-2


Paul already qualified this s chapter 12, showing the we must not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of our mind.


We are the ones that do the work of presenting our bodies a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God.


Paul explains this to Timothy -


But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2 Timothy 2:20-21

• Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor,

To the Church at Corinth Paul says it this way -


Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

• let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Everything that pertains to the Christian life and godliness is accomplished by us being led and empowered by the Spirit.

We do the work, by the grace and power of the Holy Spirit.


This is the life of faith; the life according to the Spirit.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with #2 as well, but you have the roles reversed. God put up the PLEDGE/SURETY because God is the one who must fulfill the terms of the contract ... we are just “God’s possession”, the object that God claims when He fulfills His contract.

Yes,,,I understand your position.
I, of course, believe WE have to fulfill the terms of the contract.
IOW, God pledges our eternal salvation IF we keep our contract...which might be said to belong to the New Covenant.
Even Paul said that we must hope for our salvation, and what is hoped for is not yet received.
Romans 8:24-25
24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

Philippians 3:12-14
12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


The word, of course, was originally EARNEST,,,
this means a down-payment to receive something when the contract is fulfilled. So happy to come across someone that actually understands this!

But our difference will be in WHO fulfills the contract.
Jesus did HIS part,,,do we not have any part?
Of course not if one believes that God does it all.

If God does it all...then why all the exhortations in the N.T. to live a Godly life?

How do you explain Colossians 1:23?
2 Peter 2:20-21?
And others.

Why are we told TO BELIEVE to be saved? (Acts 16, John 3)
We are not told to just wait to see if God chooses us.
Could you give me some supporting scripture for your believe that it's GOD that chooses us....

And what about Augustine?
How did his belief turn into double predestination?
Wouldn't this be the belief of Luther, Calvin, etc?
Why do THEY get to change what the church had always believed??

We're not going to change our minds...
Just talking....

 

[GodsGrace]

Bible Study - The Study of Righteousness - For with the heart man believes unto Righteousness...Romans 10:10

“Imputed Righteousness” is Righteousness that we do not earn, and cannot earn, and neither can we merit such. It is freely given to the believing sinner upon confession of Faith in Christ. It is the only type of Righteousness that God will accept, because it’s based on the perfect Righteousness...

christianforums.net

Please study this above one hour a day...take notes...then teach others.

What is it that you believe I have to learn?
Please clarify.

 

[iLOVE]

What is it that you believe I have to learn?
Please clarify.

We all need to study daily. Pastor Curtis has a preaching and teaching on Righteousness. This is a very, very important subject. Unless we all understand Gods standard of Righteousness, the Holy Spirit will make sure you will not see, hear, or understand the Gospel in its Truth and Righteous context. We will only see it in the "letter of the law" that kills (the Law). Remember, Peter receive Who Christ was by Our Father in Heaven; Jesus said flesh and blood didn't reveal this to him.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15).

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled (Matthew 5:6).

 

[GodsGrace]

We all need to study daily. Pastor Curtis has a teaching on Righteousness. This is a very, very important subject. Unless we all understand Gods standard of Righteousness, the Holy Spirit will make sure you will not see, hear, or understand the Gospel in its Truth and Righteous context. We will only see it in the "letter of the law" that kills (the Law). Remember, Peter receive Who Christ was by Our Father in Heaven; Jesus said flesh and blood didn't reveal this to him.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15).

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled (Matthew 5:6).

But you didn't say what righteousness is or what you think I don't know about it or understand about it.

If it's such an important subject, don't you think I should know about it?

I'm not going to be listening to Pastor Curtis....YOU have listened to him and should be able to repeat what he said and taught.

I'm going to list some verses about Righteousness after dinner and you can tell me which ones you don't agree with.

Later....

 

[PeterJens]

Because of your faith not being placed and maintained in Christ and Him Crucified, but in faith in Christ and obedience, you have not been granted “Righteousness.” Your triple moral ability to see, hear, and understand every Word that God has ever spoken in Truth and Righteousness has been blocked by the Holy Spirit. You are preaching another Jesus that is not in the Bible in the letter of the law that kills.

This is why Jesus said:

“13 Enter you in at the strait gate (this is the Door, Who is Jesus [Jn. 10:1]): for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat (proclaims the fact of many and varied religions of the world, which are false, and lead to eternal hellfire):

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it (every contrite heart earnestly desires to be among the “few”; the requirements are greater than most are willing to accept).”

I pray that God gives you Grace to see, hear, and understand Truth in its "Righteous" context. Please study the teaching of Righteousness I have posted under “Biblical Growth and Study.”

Amen to our life comes from the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
We cannot obey Jesus unless He empowers it through His work in our hearts.

You though seem to have fallen into judgementalism and are applying your theology to individuals personally without due regard to the Lords work in their lives.

Gods people will always obey love, because it is their heart, and share the importance of obedience to love, irrespective of faith. But it appears you have decided sharing on obedience is a sign of proving oneself before God, which for some it might be, but this is not the distinguishing feature of Gods people. The distinguishing feature is the love they have one for another, and their love of Christ.

If you end up condemning those God has raised up, one has become an enemy of God. Is that where you want to go, because I never want to be there. God bless you.

 

[JLB]

Amen to our life comes from the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
We cannot obey Jesus unless He empowers it through His work in our hearts.

Amen. So true.

Without His grace, His Spirit working in us, we can not love as he would have us to do.



JLB

 

[JLB]

We all need to study daily. Pastor Curtis has a preaching and teaching on Righteousness. This is a very, very important subject. Unless we all understand Gods standard of Righteousness, the Holy Spirit will make sure you will not see, hear, or understand the Gospel in its Truth and Righteous context. We will only see it in the "letter of the law" that kills (the Law). Remember, Peter receive Who Christ was by Our Father in Heaven; Jesus said flesh and blood didn't reveal this to him.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15).

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled (Matthew 5:6).

Do you believe born again Christians who do not practice righteousness are still somehow righteous?


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:7



JLB

 

[JLB]

Unless we all understand Gods standard of Righteousness, the Holy Spirit will make sure you will not see, hear, or understand the Gospel in its Truth and Righteous context. We will only see it in the "letter of the law" that kills (the Law). Remember, Peter receive Who Christ was by Our Father in Heaven; Jesus said flesh and blood didn't reveal this to him.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 1 John 3:15-19


Our faith expresses itself with acts of love.


Love here in this context is a verb.

A word that denotes action.


On the other hand there is the love of God in us, which is a noun, that must be expressed through our action.


Paul says it this way -


For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Galatians 5:6


This outworking or expressing of God’s love within us, is how we practice righteousness.







JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen to our life comes from the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
We cannot obey Jesus unless He empowers it through His work in our hearts.

You though seem to have fallen into judgementalism and are applying your theology to individuals personally without due regard to the Lords work in their lives.

Gods people will always obey love, because it is their heart, and share the importance of obedience to love, irrespective of faith. But it appears you have decided sharing on obedience is a sign of proving oneself before God, which for some it might be, but this is not the distinguishing feature of Gods people. The distinguishing feature is the love they have one for another, and their love of Christ.

If you end up condemning those God has raised up, one has become an enemy of God. Is that where you want to go, because I never want to be there. God bless you.

Yes, I must say that I found post no. 58 to be rather distressing.
No one can know the heart and no one can declare who is saved and who is not. Only God can know this.

We here on this thread probably believe that we are to obey God...the question is what part do WE individually have in it.
Do we actually have to move our mind and hands and do as God would want...or do we just expect HIM to do it all?

Jesus expects us to act on His words...
Mathew 7:24 The Two Foundations
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

 

[GodsGrace]

Because of your faith not being placed and maintained in Christ and Him Crucified, but in faith in Christ and obedience, you have not been granted “Righteousness.” Your triple moral ability to see, hear, and understand every Word that God has ever spoken in Truth and Righteousness has been blocked by the Holy Spirit. You are preaching another Jesus that is not in the Bible in the letter of the law that kills.

This is why Jesus said:

“13 Enter you in at the strait gate (this is the Door, Who is Jesus [Jn. 10:1]): for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat (proclaims the fact of many and varied religions of the world, which are false, and lead to eternal hellfire):

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it (every contrite heart earnestly desires to be among the “few”; the requirements are greater than most are willing to accept).”

I pray that God gives you Grace to see, hear, and understand Truth in its "Righteous" context. Please study the teaching of Righteousness I have posted under “Biblical Growth and Study.”

Hi iLOVE,,,
Above is more confusing scripture.
You state that another member will not be able to see, hear or understand every word that God has ever spoken because this has been blocked by the Holy Spirit.

You state that it is blocked because the member is not placing his faith in Christ and Him crucified, but in Christ and obedience.

Then you go on to post Mathew 7:13 and 14 which speak to the fact that we must enter by the narrow gate. In verse 14 the red letting tells us that the requirements for this are greater than most are willing to accept.

1. What ARE those requirements?
It seems to me that Jesus said right after this that it is the wise builder that acts on His words who is the wise builder.
Matthew 7:24

Those who do NOT put Jesus' words into practice is the foolish builder.
Matthew 7:25

Jesus left us with many commandments to follow....He told the Apostles to go into all the world and teach what Jesus had taught them...
Mathew 28:18-19

The narrow gate is the difficult gate because we must become followers, or disciples, of Jesus in order to enter into it. This means that we must DO as Jesus taught. When we DO, we OBEY, Jesus.

It is more than correct doctrine to say that we must believe in Jesus and OBEY Him....Your statement that this is another Jesus is not correct.

Could you post some scripture which states that we are not to obey Jesus because it is a different gospel (or Jesus)?

Thanks.

 

[JLB]

You state that another member will not be able to see, hear or understand every word that God has ever spoken because this has been blocked by the Holy Spirit.

This is downright disturbing that any Christian would actually dare to misrepresent the Holy Spirit in such a way.


JLB

 

[PeterJens]

Yes, I must say that I found post no. 58 to be rather distressing.
No one can know the heart and no one can declare who is saved and who is not. Only God can know this.

We here on this thread probably believe that we are to obey God...the question is what part do WE individually have in it.
Do we actually have to move our mind and hands and do as God would want...or do we just expect HIM to do it all?

Jesus expects us to act on His words...
Mathew 7:24 The Two Foundations
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

You do ask the big, sorry BIG questions. And the answer is ..........
Paul put it like this, he sowed the seed, another watered it, God gave the growth.
I can eliminate a few simple issues by talking about what we are.
Jesus called us His friends. He calls us to reign with Him on His throne.
Now that is a role we do not expect or even feel qualified for. But it also puts boundaries on who is doing the doing, we are in control, but Jesus is right there alongside us.
One of our big bug bears is sin, and our struggles. But what did God say to us through John the Baptist.
Making your paths straight, no problem repent and be baptised. Clearing house is not a problem, the problem is the relationship, honesty, giving and receiving, the emotional roller coaster.

So the rich young man, he had it sussed, get approval, rubber stamp, and live a righteous rich life with no worries. And what did Jesus say, good foundation but now get real, give up your security and the easy life and follow me, the eternal reality, really trust me and know what eternity is really all about.
Handling the complexity of relationships is the challenge, knowing the right approach, assessing need, cost, effort, location, next step, ultimate goals, limitations boundaries, handling conflict, hurt, need, mourning, success, joy, disappointments, failure, evil people, in justice, now that is hard. To be nothing and know to Jesus you are everything. To be in prison about to die, and sing praises to our King.
In a sense all of it is in Christ, with the Holy Spirit, soaked in our hearts and in love, where we do it in communion as He works through us. But sitting back and letting God is not Gods way. Listen to Jesus's prayer life, and even having a discussion with Moses and Elijah about the last time in Jerusalem and how it is going to go down. This is family, integrated, a body, open, in the light, powerful.

God bless you

 

[GodsGrace]

This is downright disturbing that any Christian would actually dare to misrepresent the Holy Spirit in such a way.


JLB

Agreed.
God would want all men to be saved...
1 Timothy 2:4

The Holy Spirit is our comforter and helper...He does NOT block anyone that is willing to hear.

God has set attributes...some of which are mentioned in scripture.
We should not deny Him those attributes.

 

[PeterJens]

Agreed.
God would want all men to be saved...
1 Timothy 2:4

The Holy Spirit is our comforter and helper...He does NOT block anyone that is willing to hear.

God has set attributes...some of which are mentioned in scripture.
We should not deny Him those attributes.

Had interaction today, and the other party claimed they knew what they were saying and doing except it was only on their terms in the most aggressive and destructive way possible. Put that in christian discussion terms, a hand grenade going off.

One person suggested that approach was all about vanity, I am right, tell me how right I am etc. It shows up when a mistake is made or false statement put forward is it withdrawn or just ignored. If there is a discussion is everything turned round so the speaker looks brilliant and not the subject. And what they hate is looking bad, so no consistency, because it is all based on mood of the moment.

I noticed what was demonstrated was no common agreement of subject or interaction. More like random walking, searching for a weak spot and assuming one is facing an enemy. What they did not realise this is not Christs way ever. Jesus is about true engagement and honesty at all levels, walking in the light. Of course a vanity approach dressed up in religious language is not going to get anywhere.

So I suspect we are facing a similar exercise here, where the true triggers are not apparent but very personal.

 

[GodsGrace]

You do ask the big, sorry BIG questions. And the answer is ..........
Paul put it like this, he sowed the seed, another watered it, God gave the growth.
I can eliminate a few simple issues by talking about what we are.
Jesus called us His friends. He calls us to reign with Him on His throne.
Now that is a role we do not expect or even feel qualified for. But it also puts boundaries on who is doing the doing, we are in control, but Jesus is right there alongside us.
One of our big bug bears is sin, and our struggles. But what did God say to us through John the Baptist.
Making your paths straight, no problem repent and be baptised. Clearing house is not a problem, the problem is the relationship, honesty, giving and receiving, the emotional roller coaster.

So the rich young man, he had it sussed, get approval, rubber stamp, and live a righteous rich life with no worries. And what did Jesus say, good foundation but now get real, give up your security and the easy life and follow me, the eternal reality, really trust me and know what eternity is really all about.
Handling the complexity of relationships is the challenge, knowing the right approach, assessing need, cost, effort, location, next step, ultimate goals, limitations boundaries, handling conflict, hurt, need, mourning, success, joy, disappointments, failure, evil people, in justice, now that is hard. To be nothing and know to Jesus you are everything. To be in prison about to die, and sing praises to our King.
In a sense all of it is in Christ, with the Holy Spirit, soaked in our hearts and in love, where we do it in communion as He works through us. But sitting back and letting God is not Gods way. Listen to Jesus's prayer life, and even having a discussion with Moses and Elijah about the last time in Jerusalem and how it is going to go down. This is family, integrated, a body, open, in the light, powerful.

God bless you

Hi P,
I was going to mention the Rich Young Man in my post (which you're answering above).

He said he was following all the commandments in order to gain eternal life. You'd think this was enough....but Jesus told him, NO!
You must do more.

This flies in the face of those that feel nothing is required to be saved. And why did Jesus tell the Rich Man that he needed to do more?

For the same reason that Jesus said we are to be more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mathew 5:20

So how do we do more?

By doing it with our heart...by doing happily what we do and if we don't want to and will become bitter due to immaturity, or any other reason, then we should just tell God we cannot and hope to be able to one day. We are not to do works which are not worth anything...but should ask God for strength and do the best we can honestly.

We are saved by faith....
We will do the works of God as we grow more and more and as He helps us to do them. God gives us the strength, but I'm sure we all have a limit and where we cannot reach, God will forgive us.

That is quite different than saying that our works are as filthy rags and that God does not require anything but faith, or belief.

 

[PeterJens]

Hi P,
I was going to mention the Rich Young Man in my post (which you're answering above).

He said he was following all the commandments in order to gain eternal life. You'd think this was enough....but Jesus told him, NO!
You must do more.

This flies in the face of those that feel nothing is required to be saved. And why did Jesus tell the Rich Man that he needed to do more?

For the same reason that Jesus said we are to be more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mathew 5:20

So how do we do more?

By doing it with our heart...by doing happily what we do and if we don't want to and will become bitter due to immaturity, or any other reason, then we should just tell God we cannot and hope to be able to one day. We are not to do works which are not worth anything...but should ask God for strength and do the best we can honestly.

We are saved by faith....
We will do the works of God as we grow more and more and as He helps us to do them. God gives us the strength, but I'm sure we all have a limit and where we cannot reach, God will forgive us.

That is quite different than saying that our works are as filthy rags and that God does not require anything but faith, or belief.

The filthy rags argument is junk anyway. Works to justify yourself, or as sense of we are righteous, good enough is filthy rags. But after the work of Christ in our hearts, purified and cleansed our works are glorious lights to the world of love and praise to God. If they were now filthy rags what is the point of transformation that produces junk that stinks and goes off. It is annoying how in the heart of believers who do not know Jesus, they come out with such junk, but then no wonder. The speak just what their hearts of full of, and with great force, because we are the enemy who they desire to destroy and shut up. I remember discussion where that was openly said, I was more evil than a murderer. If words could kill, I would be dead.

It was nice too know that such discussions were over the internet, because in the past churches have killed other churches feeling these very things that justified their actions.

Funnily if you respond blandly to their expressions they disappear, because impact is more important than truth. And if you have lost respect for these people and they are just provokers, they have nothing, because they certainly have no argument.