U
Urambo Tauro
Guest
This was brought to my attention...
What do you think?
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stovebolts
Member
http://www.carm.org/diff/John3_13.htm
Did anyone ascend into heaven
before Jesus or not?
Genesis 5:24; 2 Kings 2:11 and John 3:13
Yes
(Genesis 5:24) - "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."
(2 Kings 2:11) - "Then it came about as they were going along and talking, that behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven."
(Hebrews 11:5) - "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God."
No
(John 3:13) - "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man"
The answer is simple when you understand the Jewish concept of the universe. They believed in three heavens. The first was the atmosphere where the trees, clouds, and birds are. The second is the realm of the stars, planets, sun, and moon. And the third heaven was the very dwelling place of God. In the Old Testament in Genesis 5 and 2 Kings 2 above, they were not taken into the very dwelling place of God, but into the heavens; that is, they were taken up into the sky. Exactly where is in debate. It isn't until after the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ were those who had died before, in faith, taken into the highest heaven. Ephesians 4:8 is often referred to as a supporting scripture for this belief. It says, "When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men." Furthermore, when Paul said he was caught up to the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2), he was referring to the very dwelling place of God.
Biblical demonstration of the three heavens
First heaven - Earth Atmosphere
(Deuteronomy 11:17) - "Then the LORD's anger will burn against you, and he will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce...."
(Deuteronomy 28:12) - "The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands."
Second Heaven - Outer Space
(Psalm 19:4,6) - "In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun... It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other;..."
(Jeremiah 8:2) - They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens which they have loved and served...."
Third Heaven - Where God dwells
(1 Kings 8:27) - "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you."
(Psalm 2:4) - The One enthroned in heaven laughs; The LORD scoffs at them."
Did anyone ascend into heaven
before Jesus or not?
Genesis 5:24; 2 Kings 2:11 and John 3:13
Yes
(Genesis 5:24) - "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."
(2 Kings 2:11) - "Then it came about as they were going along and talking, that behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven."
(Hebrews 11:5) - "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God."
No
(John 3:13) - "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man"
The answer is simple when you understand the Jewish concept of the universe. They believed in three heavens. The first was the atmosphere where the trees, clouds, and birds are. The second is the realm of the stars, planets, sun, and moon. And the third heaven was the very dwelling place of God. In the Old Testament in Genesis 5 and 2 Kings 2 above, they were not taken into the very dwelling place of God, but into the heavens; that is, they were taken up into the sky. Exactly where is in debate. It isn't until after the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ were those who had died before, in faith, taken into the highest heaven. Ephesians 4:8 is often referred to as a supporting scripture for this belief. It says, "When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men." Furthermore, when Paul said he was caught up to the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2), he was referring to the very dwelling place of God.
Biblical demonstration of the three heavens
First heaven - Earth Atmosphere
(Deuteronomy 11:17) - "Then the LORD's anger will burn against you, and he will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce...."
(Deuteronomy 28:12) - "The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands."
Second Heaven - Outer Space
(Psalm 19:4,6) - "In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun... It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other;..."
(Jeremiah 8:2) - They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens which they have loved and served...."
Third Heaven - Where God dwells
(1 Kings 8:27) - "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you."
(Psalm 2:4) - The One enthroned in heaven laughs; The LORD scoffs at them."
StoveBolts said:
Perhaps you're looking into this a little too much, SB. Do you really believe that Elijah, Moses and Enoch were caught in some sort of 'limbo' secondary paradise? Where is the talk of this paradise where they went before Christ died and arose? (Some would say that it is in Hades but these gentlemen didn't die) If that is the case and there are three heavens then they would have had to be 'caught' in the atmosphere or space for a few 1000 years.
So where did they come from to stand next to Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration? Did God call down and say, 'Hey, E and M, come out of that place you're in right now. I have a job for you!" There is nothing in the scriptures to dispute that they didn't come straight from God's presence sent by God as messengers like the angels do.
Perhaps when John says, 'no man has ascended to heaven' Christ was talking about His purpose as the Savior and not the actual fact of not going to heaven. Perhaps the word 'ascended' as it relates to Christ and not to the others might be a key. Elijah was taken up by a chariot and was seen no more. Nobody even saw Enoch get translated. Jude tells us that Moses was most likely resurrected or directly transported to heaven.
Christ was seen visibly by all and 'ascended' straight to heaven for all to see. His work of salvation was complete, now He could 'go to the right hand of the Father and interced for us'. This couldn't have happened without His ascension. The Apostles Creed emphasises this in a logical, chronological progression.
I could be wrong, but I see issues in believing what you believe. Don't get me wrong, I do believe that there are different types of 'heaven'. God's heaven is not the atmosphere. However, I am questioning you reading this into the topic at hand.
B
Bob10
Guest
were do you find that at in the Book of Jude?
-------------------------------------------------
Deut
34:5
So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord.
34:6
And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.
Bob10 said:
Jude 9
"Yet Michael the archangel, when disputing with the devil he contended about the body of Moses dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke thee".
What was this all about. Bob10? Fighting over whether Moses should stay in the ground or be taken by the devil to Tatarus? Why does this occurrence only happen with Moses? Why aren't they fighting over Abraham or Joshua or David?
How do you then explain Moses' presence with Christ and Elijah? His 'soul'? Did God resurrect Moses specifically for this purpose and then send him back to the grave? I can assure you that Moses would most likely have been pretty confused as to where he was all of a sudden and had to have this explained to him for awhile.
Fact:
Nowhere else in the Bible is a patriarch's future discussed and disputed
Nowhere else is the same patiarch's whereabouts specifically accounted for in the scriptures
Is this a coincidence with all the supposed saints in heaven who could have been mentioned AND given a special assignement? It is obvious that Moses was given special treatment that no other patriarch or saint was given and the events must be tied together with a special resurrection to life that was given to Moses and no other.
But we get off topic...
B
Bob10
Guest
It was merely a vision. Jesus: "Tell the vision to no man....." -
Matthew 17:9, KJV.
Peter, too, saw a vision - Acts 10:17, KJV
B
Bob10
Guest
Hi, guibox.
You get from this that Moses was resurrected to immortal life? JESUS was the FIRST raised from the dead to immortality (1 Cor. 15:20-23) --- not Moses.
Hebrews
11:39
All these (including MOSES) were approved through their faith, but they did not receive what was promised,
Hebrews
11:40
since God had provided something better for us, so that they would not be made perfect without us.
U
Urambo Tauro
Guest
Hmm... this sounds like a good possible explanation... what Greek word was translated to "ascended"?guibox said:
Vic C.
Member
How about the possibility of different levels of Heaven...
2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Cor 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Cor 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
U
Urambo Tauro
Guest
Ok, I'm back...
It looks like it was just a matter of context being overlooked. Start John's passage back at verse eleven:
Nicodemus and Yeshua(Jesus) are having a conversation. Jesus tells him, "...we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man..."
Jesus seems to be talking about the validity of what He is saying. Only someone who has been to heaven can speak "heavenly things" accurately. In Jesus' case, He has been to heaven and come to earth, so this puts Him in a position where He can "speak of what He knows and testify of what He has seen". Simply put, He knows what He is talking about.
I think Jesus is referring to people on earth. Jesus is the only person (on earth) who has been to heaven, and can speak "heavenly things". Does that make sense?
It looks like it was just a matter of context being overlooked. Start John's passage back at verse eleven:
Nicodemus and Yeshua(Jesus) are having a conversation. Jesus tells him, "...we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man..."
Jesus seems to be talking about the validity of what He is saying. Only someone who has been to heaven can speak "heavenly things" accurately. In Jesus' case, He has been to heaven and come to earth, so this puts Him in a position where He can "speak of what He knows and testify of what He has seen". Simply put, He knows what He is talking about.
I think Jesus is referring to people on earth. Jesus is the only person (on earth) who has been to heaven, and can speak "heavenly things". Does that make sense?
stovebolts
Member
Sounds reasonable, but that doesn't account for where Elijah went... Or are you saying that Jesus is the only one who ascended to heaven that is allowed or "Able" to speak of heaven??
U
Urambo Tauro
Guest
I submit a revolutionary idea! :o-maybe Elijah went to the same heaven as Jesus!
OK, maybe it sounds like I'm totally off my rocker, but hear me out...
The context of what Jesus is telling Nicodemus is, "who can speak heavenly things but someone who has been there?". Let's say Elijah went to the same heaven as Jesus. OK, that's great, but Elijah is still there, right? So Jesus is walking around on the earth, and some guy starts asking about "heavenly things". Elijah's not exactly in a position to answer those questions. Not because Elijah doesn't know, but he's just not part of the conversation. So Jesus "asks for a show of hands", so to speak. "Who here has been to heaven? -oh, I guess I'm the only one. OK, well, it's like this..."(severely paraphrased, that is)
What do you think?
OK, maybe it sounds like I'm totally off my rocker, but hear me out...
The context of what Jesus is telling Nicodemus is, "who can speak heavenly things but someone who has been there?". Let's say Elijah went to the same heaven as Jesus. OK, that's great, but Elijah is still there, right? So Jesus is walking around on the earth, and some guy starts asking about "heavenly things". Elijah's not exactly in a position to answer those questions. Not because Elijah doesn't know, but he's just not part of the conversation. So Jesus "asks for a show of hands", so to speak. "Who here has been to heaven? -oh, I guess I'm the only one. OK, well, it's like this..."(severely paraphrased, that is)
What do you think?
U
Urambo Tauro
Guest
Well, I guess if He's the only one who has been there (knows what He's talking about), then maybe He should be the only one allowed to talk about "heavenly things". Granted, many "heavenly things" have already been revealed to us, so perhaps we can talk about them. However, Nicodemus was not in such a position. That particular conversation in John 3 consists of only two people; and only one knew "heavenly things".StoveBolts said:
So, maybe not "allowed or able", but more along the lines of- He has been there, He is trustworthy, and no one else(at the time) knows and can speak accurately.
Keep in mind that this is a time-sensitive remark. Nicodemus did not understand "heavenly things"; but many "heavenly things" have been revealed to us. The moral seems to be, "don't speak of something you know nothing about."
Am I on the right track?
Urambo Tauro said:
Jesus did not lie, so therefore, you have misinterpreted where Elijah is. 1 Th. 4: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him." Paul makes it clear that all who die are asleep until the second death. Believers who are asleep are called those who are asleep in Christ.
F
FuzzyWeasel
Guest
I think maybe it was different from Elijah because Jesus ascended into heaven of His own power - Elijah did not. God had to do it for him. ;-)
W
Waylon
Guest
Urambo Tauro said:
I totally aggree with you. Jesus is just trying to make the point that He is from heaven and came to earth so He knows what He is talking about.
M
Michael A Disciple
Guest
Consider this concerning Elijah:
Most people believe Elijah the Prophet is in heaven. Is this true? Follow the story with me.
1 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2 And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the Lord hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel.
3 And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
4 And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the Lord hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho.
5 And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
6 And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the Lord hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on.
7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.
8 And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.
9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
13 He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;
14 And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the Lord God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over.
15 And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.
16 And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the Lord hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said
17 And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not.
18 And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not?
2 Kings 2:1-18
Elijah now goes to heaven. The Hebrew word for heaven is the same word as for the sky. Elisha now becomes the main prophet in Israel. Have you ever wondered why the sons of the Prophets wanted to search for Elijah? Is it possible this had happened before?
1 Now Jehoram the son of Ahab began to reign over Israel in Samaria the eighteenth year of Jehoshaphat king of Judah, and reigned twelve years.
2 And he wrought evil in the sight of the Lord; but not like his father, and like his mother: for he put away the image of Baal that his father had made.
3 Nevertheless he cleaved unto the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, which made Israel to sin; he departed not therefrom.
4 And Mesha king of Moab was a sheepmaster, and rendered unto the king of Israel an hundred thousand lambs, and an hundred thousand rams, with the wool.
5 But it came to pass, when Ahab was dead, that the king of Moab rebelled against the king of Israel.
6 And king Jehoram went out of Samaria the same time, and numbered all Israel.
7 And he went and sent to Jehoshaphat The king of Judah, saying, The king of Moab hath rebelled against me: wilt thou go with me against Moab to battle? And he said, I will go up: I am as thou art, my people as thy people, and my horses as thy horses.
8 And he said, Which way shall we go up? And he answered, The way through the wilderness of Edom.
9 So the king of Israel went, and the king of Judah, and the king of Edom: and they fetched a compass of seven days' journey: and there was no water for the host, and for the cattle that followed them.
10 And the king of Israel said, Alas! that the Lord hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab!
11 But Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the Lord, that we may inquire of the Lord by him? And one of the king of Israel's servants answered and said, Here is Elisha the son of Shaphat, which poured water on the hands of Elijah.
12 And Jehoshaphat said, The word of the Lord is with him. So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat and the king of Edom went down to him.
13 And Elisha said unto the king of Israel, What have I to do with thee? get thee to the prophets of thy father, and to the prophets of thy mother. And the king of Israel said unto him, Nay: for the Lord hath called these three kings together, to deliver th
14 And Elisha said, As the Lord of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, surely, were it not that I regard the presence of Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, I would not look toward thee, nor see thee.
15 But now bring me a minstrel. And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the Lord came upon him.
2 Kings 3:1-15
Here we begin an important timeline. While Jehoshaphat was king of Judah Elisha was the recognized Prophet in Israel.
1 Now Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And Jehoram his son reigned in his stead.
2 And he had brethren the sons of Jehoshaphat, Azariah, and Jehiel, and Zechariah, and Azariah, and Michael, and Shephatiah: all these were the sons of Jehoshaphat king of Israel.
3 And their father gave them great gifts of silver, and of gold, and of precious things, with fenced cities in Judah: but the kingdom gave he to Jehoram; because he was the firstborn.
4 Now when Jehoram was risen up to the kingdom of his father, he strengthened himself, and slew all his brethren with the sword, and divers also of the princes of Israel.
5 Jehoram was thirty and two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eight years in Jerusalem.
6 And he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, like as did the house of Ahab: for he had the daughter of Ahab to wife: and he wrought that which was evil in the eyes of the Lord.
2 Chron. 21:1-6
Now we see that Jehoshaphat dies. His son Jehoram follows him as king and reigns for 8 years. Now keep in mind that ELISHA was Prophet before Jehoram even began to reign.
6 And he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, like as did the house of Ahab: for he had the daughter of Ahab to wife: and he wrought that which was evil in the eyes of the Lord.
7 Howbeit the Lord would not destroy the house of David, because of the covenant that he had made with David, and as he promised to give a light to him and to his sons for ever.
8 In his days the Edomites revolted from under the dominion of Judah, and made themselves a king.
9 Then Jehoram went forth with his princes, and all his chariots with him: and he rose up by night, and smote the Edomites which compassed him in, and the captains of the chariots.
10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers.
11 Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.
12 And there came a writing to him from ELIJAH the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:
14 Behold, with a great plague will the Lord smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:
15 And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day. 2 Chron. 21:6-15
According to verse 12 who sent this word of judgment to Jehoram? ELIJAH! Now ELISHA became the main Prophet of Israel while Jehoshaphat was alive. Then Jehoram reigns 8 years. So it has been AT LEAST 8 YEARS since ELIJAH went to heaven! But now we see he is still ministering and prophesying doom! How can this be?
The Hebrew word for heaven also means "the sky". Could it be that YAH took Elijah up in the sky to accomplish some purpose for him? Is that way the sons of the Prophets thought he had been translated into a valley or onto a mountain? Some other place?
One thing is sure. At the time Yashua walked the earth hundreds of years later, he said this:
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13
So Yashua did not believe Elijah went up to heaven! Not the heaven he was dwelling in.
If Elijah went to heaven and is still there today he would be immortal. If that be true why did Paul say this:
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of Lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1 Tim. 6:14-16
No doubt Paul read the story of Elijah. But he still said ONLY YASHUA HAS IMMORTALITY! So evidently Paul did not believe Elijah was in heaven.
My conclusion: Yah transported Elijah to another place either for his protection or to do his will in some matter.
Most people believe Elijah the Prophet is in heaven. Is this true? Follow the story with me.
1 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2 And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the Lord hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel.
3 And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
4 And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the Lord hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho.
5 And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
6 And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the Lord hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on.
7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.
8 And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.
9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
13 He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;
14 And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the Lord God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over.
15 And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.
16 And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the Lord hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said
17 And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not.
18 And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not?
2 Kings 2:1-18
Elijah now goes to heaven. The Hebrew word for heaven is the same word as for the sky. Elisha now becomes the main prophet in Israel. Have you ever wondered why the sons of the Prophets wanted to search for Elijah? Is it possible this had happened before?
1 Now Jehoram the son of Ahab began to reign over Israel in Samaria the eighteenth year of Jehoshaphat king of Judah, and reigned twelve years.
2 And he wrought evil in the sight of the Lord; but not like his father, and like his mother: for he put away the image of Baal that his father had made.
3 Nevertheless he cleaved unto the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, which made Israel to sin; he departed not therefrom.
4 And Mesha king of Moab was a sheepmaster, and rendered unto the king of Israel an hundred thousand lambs, and an hundred thousand rams, with the wool.
5 But it came to pass, when Ahab was dead, that the king of Moab rebelled against the king of Israel.
6 And king Jehoram went out of Samaria the same time, and numbered all Israel.
7 And he went and sent to Jehoshaphat The king of Judah, saying, The king of Moab hath rebelled against me: wilt thou go with me against Moab to battle? And he said, I will go up: I am as thou art, my people as thy people, and my horses as thy horses.
8 And he said, Which way shall we go up? And he answered, The way through the wilderness of Edom.
9 So the king of Israel went, and the king of Judah, and the king of Edom: and they fetched a compass of seven days' journey: and there was no water for the host, and for the cattle that followed them.
10 And the king of Israel said, Alas! that the Lord hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab!
11 But Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the Lord, that we may inquire of the Lord by him? And one of the king of Israel's servants answered and said, Here is Elisha the son of Shaphat, which poured water on the hands of Elijah.
12 And Jehoshaphat said, The word of the Lord is with him. So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat and the king of Edom went down to him.
13 And Elisha said unto the king of Israel, What have I to do with thee? get thee to the prophets of thy father, and to the prophets of thy mother. And the king of Israel said unto him, Nay: for the Lord hath called these three kings together, to deliver th
14 And Elisha said, As the Lord of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, surely, were it not that I regard the presence of Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, I would not look toward thee, nor see thee.
15 But now bring me a minstrel. And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the Lord came upon him.
2 Kings 3:1-15
Here we begin an important timeline. While Jehoshaphat was king of Judah Elisha was the recognized Prophet in Israel.
1 Now Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And Jehoram his son reigned in his stead.
2 And he had brethren the sons of Jehoshaphat, Azariah, and Jehiel, and Zechariah, and Azariah, and Michael, and Shephatiah: all these were the sons of Jehoshaphat king of Israel.
3 And their father gave them great gifts of silver, and of gold, and of precious things, with fenced cities in Judah: but the kingdom gave he to Jehoram; because he was the firstborn.
4 Now when Jehoram was risen up to the kingdom of his father, he strengthened himself, and slew all his brethren with the sword, and divers also of the princes of Israel.
5 Jehoram was thirty and two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eight years in Jerusalem.
6 And he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, like as did the house of Ahab: for he had the daughter of Ahab to wife: and he wrought that which was evil in the eyes of the Lord.
2 Chron. 21:1-6
Now we see that Jehoshaphat dies. His son Jehoram follows him as king and reigns for 8 years. Now keep in mind that ELISHA was Prophet before Jehoram even began to reign.
6 And he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, like as did the house of Ahab: for he had the daughter of Ahab to wife: and he wrought that which was evil in the eyes of the Lord.
7 Howbeit the Lord would not destroy the house of David, because of the covenant that he had made with David, and as he promised to give a light to him and to his sons for ever.
8 In his days the Edomites revolted from under the dominion of Judah, and made themselves a king.
9 Then Jehoram went forth with his princes, and all his chariots with him: and he rose up by night, and smote the Edomites which compassed him in, and the captains of the chariots.
10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers.
11 Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.
12 And there came a writing to him from ELIJAH the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:
14 Behold, with a great plague will the Lord smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:
15 And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day. 2 Chron. 21:6-15
According to verse 12 who sent this word of judgment to Jehoram? ELIJAH! Now ELISHA became the main Prophet of Israel while Jehoshaphat was alive. Then Jehoram reigns 8 years. So it has been AT LEAST 8 YEARS since ELIJAH went to heaven! But now we see he is still ministering and prophesying doom! How can this be?
The Hebrew word for heaven also means "the sky". Could it be that YAH took Elijah up in the sky to accomplish some purpose for him? Is that way the sons of the Prophets thought he had been translated into a valley or onto a mountain? Some other place?
One thing is sure. At the time Yashua walked the earth hundreds of years later, he said this:
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13
So Yashua did not believe Elijah went up to heaven! Not the heaven he was dwelling in.
If Elijah went to heaven and is still there today he would be immortal. If that be true why did Paul say this:
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of Lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1 Tim. 6:14-16
No doubt Paul read the story of Elijah. But he still said ONLY YASHUA HAS IMMORTALITY! So evidently Paul did not believe Elijah was in heaven.
My conclusion: Yah transported Elijah to another place either for his protection or to do his will in some matter.
Michael A Disciple said:
Then your problem is trying to interpret what happened at the transfiguration of Christ when Elijah and Moses were there. To say that this is merely a 'vision' that all three disciples had simultaneously is faulty.
You only other alternative is to say that the 'souls' of both men when to heaven when they died which contradicts the Bible.
Rather both men were specially taken to heaven. Moses after he died, and Elijah in the chariot.
Notice that Christ said this: 'no man HAS ascended EXCEPT the Son of man."
Christ himself didn't ascend to the heavens before or during this event so He couldn't have been talking about 'literal ascension to heaven' or someone being taken to heaven by God. I believe that Christ was talking more about the uniqueness of the event with the Son of man that no man has or will 'ascend' to the heavens whereby.
Christ went up to the heavens after the resurrection. He resurrected as the 'first fruits' and then went to heaven to present himself to the Father. In so doing, He set himself on the right hand of the father as King of kings and Lord of lords. This all had to happen after his ascension.
Free said:
Michael and Satan were fighting over Moses body. What for? Satan wanted to cremate him and Michael wanted to bury him? Some sort of 'turf' feud?
Obviously we see that Moses was given a special privilege and taken to heaven.
Free said:
I think again, that the term 'first fruits' implies final conquering over death and not special resurrection. Christ raised people from the dead before He himself raised. Elisha raised someone from the dead as well, so people were raised from the dead before Christ.
As first fruits, he is the first and only person to conquer the concept of death by resurrection to life as opposed to direct intervention to raise someone from the dead.
In this, Christ was indeed the 'first fruits' as nobody had the power to be resurrected with the results Christ did.