What's new
Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Do not use Chrome Incognito when registering as it freezes the registration page.
  • We have just installed new software to help eliminate spam. If you experience any issues logging in or creating a new account, please use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of the page and we will assist you. Thank you!
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • No longer will OSAS vx OSNAS be allowed to be debated, argued, or discussed in theology forum. Too much time is required to monitor and rescources used to debate this subject which hasn't been definitively decided in 3,000 years.

Who was the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition?

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Topical Studies Moderator
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
23,026
Gender
Male
If I ridicule you, it is for posting a problem, but then rejecting a solution out of hand because you believe it contradicts some other ideas you've chosen to accept. You're in the preterism discussions subforum; what kind of answer did you expect? Just know that I am not going to post solutions that I am not confident in, which means I've personally already resolved any obvious concerns, even though I'm loath to dribble out all my reasoning because it is usually so interconnected. I'd rather give hints and point people in the right direction so they can work stuff out for themselves. When trying to resolve apparent biblical contradictions you don't have to follow only one line of reasoning at a time. Don't carve anything in stone, instead write in chalk so you can backtrack if certain paths deadend, or just let obstructions sit until a workaround appears.

I didn't bring up Josephus, in fact I've never actually sat down and read him because my interpretative solutions don't depend on anything he recorded. Rather, I identify patterns in the biblical narrative and see if they apply to unresolved biblical questions. If you can humor the idea that Revelation was given before the temple was destroyed, then the particular problem you've described disappears. Many more problems open up as you've realized, but that doesn't mean they are insurmountable, and claiming they are is just defeatist. Finding solutions to perceived biblical contradictions requires one challenge their perceptions, because as Christians we don't believe the bible is in error.
The man does not reject your solution, but rather your answer that lacks any scriptural substance.

He rejects your lack of scripture that you favor in place of fabricated " historical" opinion.

He rejects your man made "doctrine" that states the " Old Covenant" age ended in 70 AD.

He rejects the far flung notion that Jesus Christ came in 70 AD.

As we all do.

JLB
 

Edward

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
11,845
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Whoops. Found another problem brother. Help me out here. ;)

Revelation 16:12
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared./(KJV)

Last I checked the Euphrates river is still flowing. If the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was the Battle of Armageddon. Yet another problem crops up: the Euphrates did not dry up. In 70 A.D. the troops who were to destroy Jerusalem at Armageddon, were to be kings of the East. However, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. from the West not from the East. Isn't that scripture? Anyone?
 

Edward

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
11,845
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
The man does not reject your solution, but rather your answer that lacks any scriptural substance.

He rejects your lack of scripture that you favor in place of fabricated " historical" opinion.

He rejects your man made "doctrine" that states the " Old Covenant" age ended in 70 AD.

He rejects the far flung notion that Jesus Christ came in 70 AD.

As we all do.

JLB
That is correct. Thank you brother.

Blessing to you all this beautiful morning! I have been blessed of the Lord this day and I pray that you all are too!
 

Sinthesis

Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
5,188
Christian
Yes
I didn't say they're insurmountable, I asked for scriptures, not hints. Back any of your position up with more than vagueness brother. The big obvious one, others have asked for also. Help a brother out. When did 1/3 of the earth die?
Contrast the earth with the sea, as in God's people with the Gentiles. Then of the 'earth' during the time of the apostolic church we have three classifications of God's people;
  1. genetic faithful Jews who fear God(meek - good figs)
  2. genetic unfaithful Jews who don't fear God(zealots - bad figs)
  3. faithful Christians
The change from the carnal(heredity) to the spiritual(faith) as the operative quality that identified the people of God to the rest of the world(dogs), meant the bad figs had to go, and the myriad Jewish/Roman wars eventually exterminated them.
 

Sinthesis

Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
5,188
Christian
Yes
When is one third of men to be slayed by 200 million?
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

The fact that Revelation would not have been written at the time believed by Preterists is that John would have made the mistake of writing Rev 9:15 had it been so; I think he would have questioned the credentials of Jesus' angel. We can get to Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
The global population at the time the Jewish zealots were judged by God at the hands of the Romans was 200million.
 

Sinthesis

Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
5,188
Christian
Yes
Whoops. Found another problem brother. Help me out here. ;)

Revelation 16:12
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared./(KJV)

Last I checked the Euphrates river is still flowing. If the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was the Battle of Armageddon. Yet another problem crops up: the Euphrates did not dry up. In 70 A.D. the troops who were to destroy Jerusalem at Armageddon, were to be kings of the East. However, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. from the West not from the East. Isn't that scripture? Anyone?
It uses imagery from the conquest of Babylon to show that Jerusalem will be taken. Cyrus' army diverted the Euphrates to enter Babylon. The cessation of hostilities with the Parthians allowed the Roman legions which had been beyond the Euphrates to come against Jerusalem.
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Topical Studies Moderator
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
23,026
Gender
Male
EDITED do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Eugene

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2012
Messages
10,778
Gender
Male
The global population at the time the Jewish zealots were judged by God at the hands of the Romans was 200million.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleazar_ben_Simon
Shortly after Eleazar's death in the summer of 70 AD, Titus Flavius crushed the armies of Simon, John, and Eleazar, crucifying thousands of rebels outside the city. Josephus estimates that approximately one million Jews were killed in the siege, not to mention the destruction of the sacred Temple.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1989/06/be-ye-also-ready-the-amazing-christian-escape-from-the-ad-70-destruction-of-jerusalem?lang=eng When the Roman legions destroyed Judaea and Jerusalem in A.D. 70, Josephus says that more than 1,100,000 Jews perished and nearly 100,000 were taken captive.
 

Eugene

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2012
Messages
10,778
Gender
Male
Contrast the earth with the sea, as in God's people with the Gentiles. Then of the 'earth' during the time of the apostolic church we have three classifications of God's people;
  1. genetic faithful Jews who fear God(meek - good figs)
  2. genetic unfaithful Jews who don't fear God(zealots - bad figs)
  3. faithful Christians
The change from the carnal(heredity) to the spiritual(faith) as the operative quality that identified the people of God to the rest of the world(dogs), meant the bad figs had to go, and the myriad Jewish/Roman wars eventually exterminated them.
That sure appears to be what is know as allegorizing and spiritualizing scripture to fit a doctrine. One third of mankind is now determined to be one of three groups of man instead?
 

Sinthesis

Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
5,188
Christian
Yes
That sure appears to be what is know as allegorizing and spiritualizing scripture to fit a doctrine. One third of mankind is now determined to be one of three groups of man instead?
Yes, kind of; one of only three categories of God's people prior to their judgment. The scriptures are full of allegory, which can surely be appreciated by someone who is 'born again'. What is important is that any doctrine the allegory supports must also be available elsewhere in scripture. This is why understanding Revelation is nearly impossible without at least a working knowledge of the OT.
 

Deborah13

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
14,684
Christian
Yes
...and if I don't? :)
Aw, that would be too easy brother and would discourage further investigation and study. In and of itself may seem to take care of that problem, but it would seem to create a host of other problems immediately. Just off the top of my head without study I think, so the great tribulation is over and probably even the millennial reign? Wot? When did the a third of the earth die? No, too easy.

What we do know is that divine genius put that book together in that form. It is written in such a way that the average mind can not perceive it's secrets, nor can the wise mind! It takes illumination from the Holy Spirit for understanding, and for those who have more will be given. Those who can be trusted with little, can be trusted with more and then it shall be given. Not before. There are holier men than you or I who have lived, and a lifetime of dedication and study and seeking the Lord was what it took for them to receive the answers to certain things. That's how God works. You do give an interesting answer though. I need to pray brother.
Edward, for hundreds of years those wise men of God you speak of believe and wrote in their commentaries that Matt 24 and Daniel 9:24-27 was about the war and destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Calvin, Adam Clarke, John Gill, Matthew Henry, Charles Spurgeon, etc....
 

Deborah13

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
14,684
Christian
Yes
Did Josephus experience the Coming of The Lord Jesus from heaven, as he took vengeance in flaming fire upon all the Roman soldiers. 2 Thessalonian 1:7-8


2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who was giving the Church (the you) in this scripture tribulation? Who's Paul talking to?
It wasn't the Romans giving the Church tribulation, it was the Jews. So why would God destroy the Rome?


Do you have things, because the supposed "visions" or apparitions certainly don't qualify.

Every eye will see Him, even those who pierced him...

All the tribes will see the Son of Man Coming on the clouds of heaven, and mourn.


Anything in His writings about that?

It seems that those who wish to validate their particular religion, always have some kind of special vision, or message that is outside of scripture.

Whether it is Joseph Smith and his angel, with that special "revelation", or The Virgin Mary and the apparitions at wherever...

How about what Jesus taught us from the bible?

JLB
 

Deborah13

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
14,684
Christian
Yes
You'll ridicule me for not easily accepting something that has not really been substantiated with scripture and is just the easy way out of a difficult question? :) Ok. I'm sorry brother but I can't accept that, think what you will but I hate carving stuff in stone too hastily, especially things that I do not understand. It just doesn't sit well with me. The Holy Spirit leads me into many truths, but some things, it seems as if he leaves for me to figure out for myself, or perhaps it is that I am not ready to receive those truths yet. It keeps echoing in my feeble flesh mind that I am not supposed to lean upon my own understanding anyway.

So the only thing I can do, is to continue reading, praying, and seeking the Lord and the understanding of things through revelations of the Spirit. I thank God that this is not a salvational issue so even if I don't get to understand it now...one day all will be revealed and I will understand. You're taking a very curious position on this, I must say. I would hesitate to p'shaw things of scripture that are not well understood, and to hold up a mans writings seemingly above the scriptures is for sure a mistake, I can feel this in my heart easily. I take no offense at you or anything of the sort so don't get me wrong. But...Wow, brother.

To take the position that you have seems to me to create more questions than it solves. No offense, but this has to be backed up by scripture and would have to agree with all relevant scriptures. Beyond my comfort zone would be a misunderstanding on your part of me. It would seem that the position that you are asking me to accept, is one which would seemingly take me into a greater zone of comfort, hehe.



See? Then my problem 'disappears'. I do believe that this is the wrong approach brother.

Blessings.
Edward, you are one of the Most (possibly the most) investigative person on this forum. You are always bringing up odd scripture, posting controversial videos and ideas.
Are you saying we shouldn't tie history and archeology in with the Bible history? Wow, we are sure going to miss out on a lot. The world will know more about what the Bible says than we do.
Sometimes I wander how people read the Bible anyway. It's not a fictional book, it all really happened. So tell me why it is wrong to read about the destruction of the second temple, which did away with sacrifice and offering, dispersed the Jews, etc. just like the Bible says.
You listen to Ron Wyatt and Chuck Messler, he uses science a lot to prove things in the Bible. Why do you do that?
Inquiring minds want to know. :chin :shrug
 

Deborah13

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
14,684
Christian
Yes
I didn't say they're insurmountable, I asked for scriptures, not hints. Back any of your position up with more than vagueness brother. The big obvious one, others have asked for also. Help a brother out. When did 1/3 of the earth die?
I don't know the answer to that question. But remember that 1/3 of the earth may not be the earth as in the globe, and it might not actually be 1/3 even.
Example: How much cattle does God own? the cattle on how many thousand hills.
What's the locust with scorpion tails?
 

Eugene

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2012
Messages
10,778
Gender
Male
Yes, kind of; one of only three categories of God's people prior to their judgment. The scriptures are full of allegory, which can surely be appreciated by someone who is 'born again'. What is important is that any doctrine the allegory supports must also be available elsewhere in scripture. This is why understanding Revelation is nearly impossible without at least a working knowledge of the OT.
Then if I am understanding you correctly, one of the following categories is gone forever. Is it Christians?
  1. genetic faithful Jews who fear God(meek - good figs)
  2. genetic unfaithful Jews who don't fear God(zealots - bad figs)
  3. faithful Christians
 

Deborah13

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
14,684
Christian
Yes
I don't know the answer to that question. But remember that 1/3 of the earth may not be the earth as in the globe, and it might not actually be 1/3 even.
Example: How much cattle does God own? the cattle on how many thousand hills.
What's the locust with scorpion tails?
Edward .
Ah duh, somehow at 3 am or so I missed Sinthesis' post. So there is your answer and mine.
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Topical Studies Moderator
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
23,026
Gender
Male

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who was giving the Church (the you) in this scripture tribulation? Who's Paul talking to?
It wasn't the Romans giving the Church tribulation, it was the Jews. So why would God destroy the Rome?
Those who do not know God and do not obey the Gospel is who will be destroyed when Jesus Christ is revealed from heaven.

The Romans would certainly fall into that category if this was a regency to 70 AD.

All human beings, not just Jews or Romans.

The nations is a reference to all the nations of the world. See Revelation 19.

2 Thessalonians 1 is a contextual reference to 2 Thessalonians 2 which is clearly the Day of The Lord with the Resurrection.
 

Edward

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
11,845
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Contrast the earth with the sea, as in God's people with the Gentiles. Then of the 'earth' during the time of the apostolic church we have three classifications of God's people;
  1. genetic faithful Jews who fear God(meek - good figs)
  2. genetic unfaithful Jews who don't fear God(zealots - bad figs)
  3. faithful Christians
The change from the carnal(heredity) to the spiritual(faith) as the operative quality that identified the people of God to the rest of the world(dogs), meant the bad figs had to go, and the myriad Jewish/Roman wars eventually exterminated them.
So it's an analogy now? Nah. I don't buy that. Besides, I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that the time of Jacobs trouble will take 2/3 Jews. That didn't happen yet, not even in WWII.
 

Edward

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
11,845
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
It uses imagery from the conquest of Babylon to show that Jerusalem will be taken. Cyrus' army diverted the Euphrates to enter Babylon. The cessation of hostilities with the Parthians allowed the Roman legions which had been beyond the Euphrates to come against Jerusalem.
I know about that. It doesn't seem to have any relevance to Revelation though.
 

Edward

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
11,845
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Edward, you are one of the Most (possibly the most) investigative person on this forum. You are always bringing up odd scripture, posting controversial videos and ideas.
Are you saying we shouldn't tie history and archeology in with the Bible history? Wow, we are sure going to miss out on a lot. The world will know more about what the Bible says than we do.
Sometimes I wander how people read the Bible anyway. It's not a fictional book, it all really happened. So tell me why it is wrong to read about the destruction of the second temple, which did away with sacrifice and offering, dispersed the Jews, etc. just like the Bible says.
You listen to Ron Wyatt and Chuck Messler, he uses science a lot to prove things in the Bible. Why do you do that?
Inquiring minds want to know. :chin :shrug
I do do that. Archaeology is proving the bible. Absolutely we tie them together. But I do feel that because the temple was destroyed, doesn't emphatically mean that there will not be a third temple. We have to be careful which archaeology and science that we tie to scripture, lest we be in error. I can not wrap my mind around, that the temple was destroyed in 70 AD meaning that was it, no third temple. Sure, Jesus did away with sacrifices, but that doesn't mean that mankind couldn't mistakenly start it up again! Does not the anti-christ supposed to go into the temple and declare himself to be God? There has to be a temple for that.

They're ready to build a temple. They have building materials on hand and are waiting. Now, the have the Ark of the Covenant also. It's just that dome of the rock thing that is in the way. Perhaps the coming blood moons will somehow make it possible for it (to fall?) to the temple to be rebuilt.
 

Initial Site Debt

Total amount
$804.00
Goal
$5,080.00
Top