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Why did God create humans with the freewill to sin only to re-create glorified humans without the ability to sin?

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On a recent STR Ask podcast, Greg Koukl was asked: “Since we will presumably have free will in Heaven and yet be unable to sin, why didn’t God just make things that way in the first place?”

Greg’s response: “I think that is one of the most difficult questions to answer and I have a general answer but it’s not one I am certain of because this is another one of those; 'Why did God … kind of questions.” Greg's typically response to those kind of questions (Why did God…do such and such) is; If the Bible doesn’t say why God did such and such, then we are guessing at the answer, and likely wrong.

Given the unsubstantiated assumption made in the questioner’s question (we will be unable to sin in Heaven), how would you answer the question? I have some thoughts to post later.


https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/strask-with-greg-koukl/id1030958668?mt=2&i=1000409237166
 
Here's the "cleaned up" question.
If God was complete and not lonely and doesn't need mankind then why did He bother with us to begin with?

Because God is good.
If you are capable of something but have never done it...once you Know about it you are itching to try it.

Part of goodness is the ability to forgive. But God had no one to forgive. God is incapable of error. So that is why we exist.
But make no mistake in thinking that God needs anyone to help him exercise this. He has plenty of people already...and some really bad guys that asked for forgiveness already. We get to go along for the ride but the need isn't there.
 
I will say we absolutely will be able to sin in life everlasting, we just won't want to AND be capable of not. We will have every speck of free will we do now, and in a manner of speaking, more.

That's the answer to theodicy. Jesus was made perfect by His sufferings, then made both Lord and Christ. We are also to be made perfect by suffering.

Adam and Eve were made good, not yet perfect. As a species, all of us together need to mature. This life, with all it's difficulties, is part of that process. And what part is it that's most responsible for changing us from caterpillar / worm into butterfly? Romans 12 gives us that picture of what renewing our mind looks like to God. This happens only by drawing closer to God, which is what worship means. It's what we're created for. We need it! In that position, everything is right.
 
We are also to be made perfect by suffering.

Adam and Eve were made good, not yet perfect. As a species, all of us together need to mature. This life, with all it's difficulties, is part of that process.
Thanks. I feel like the person asking the question on the STR#ask (Bob) would have received a reasonable answer to his question if given your answer.

I myself am Yahweh, and there is no savior besides me!
Isaiah 43:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?
search=Isaiah%2043:11&version=LEB

And the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring good news to you of great joy which will be for all the people: that today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, was born for you in the city of David.
Luke 2:10-11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 2:10-11&version=LEB

Therefore, do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor me his prisoner, but suffer along with me for the gospel, according to the power of God, who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace that was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been disclosed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought to light life and immortality through the gospel, for which I was appointed a proclaimer and an apostle and a teacher, for which reason also I suffer these things. But I am not ashamed, because I know in whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted until that day.
2 Timothy 1:8-12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Timothy 1:8-12&version=LEB
 
On a recent STR Ask podcast, Greg Koukl was asked: “Since we will presumably have free will in Heaven and yet be unable to sin, why didn’t God just make things that way in the first place?”

Greg’s response: “I think that is one of the most difficult questions to answer and I have a general answer but it’s not one I am certain of because this is another one of those; 'Why did God … kind of questions.” Greg's typically response to those kind of questions (Why did God…do such and such) is; If the Bible doesn’t say why God did such and such, then we are guessing at the answer, and likely wrong.

Given the unsubstantiated assumption made in the questioner’s question (we will be unable to sin in Heaven), how would you answer the question? I have some thoughts to post later.


https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/strask-with-greg-koukl/id1030958668?mt=2&i=1000409237166

Ok, I'll take a stab at it before reading any of the other responses.

I have heard these questions before and done a bit of thinking about it, and I think the answer is twofold.

First and foremost, because there will be no sin influence upon us in heaven, and those who went through an earthly life wont ever get the big head (like Lucifer did) on their own with their free will...because they would have already witnessed him being cast into the lake of fire! (scripture!)

Secondly...If we have gone through the sin influence on earth, will we not appreciate more, the benefits of Heaven? Moreso than other created beings in Heaven that have not had to go this hell on earth?

I think so.
But like you say, I'm prolly wrong. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways above our ways, so we all see through a glass darkly for now.
 
I like that, Edward! And even though you used different words than I did, our ideas overlap. I'll add what my first Pastor said:
when satan's forced to bend the knee at the Name of Jesus, he'll say "make him do it again!" Those are the words of someone not about to follow in satan's footsteps, ya know?

This really comes down to "the song" we see being sung in Revelation. Moses' song foreshadowed it, I think. Angels can't understand this stuff!
 
On a recent STR Ask podcast, Greg Koukl was asked: “Since we will presumably have free will in Heaven and yet be unable to sin, why didn’t God just make things that way in the first place?”

Greg’s response: “I think that is one of the most difficult questions to answer and I have a general answer but it’s not one I am certain of because this is another one of those; 'Why did God … kind of questions.” Greg's typically response to those kind of questions (Why did God…do such and such) is; If the Bible doesn’t say why God did such and such, then we are guessing at the answer, and likely wrong.

Given the unsubstantiated assumption made in the questioner’s question (we will be unable to sin in Heaven), how would you answer the question? I have some thoughts to post later.


https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/strask-with-greg-koukl/id1030958668?mt=2&i=1000409237166
First sinful man does not have free will as you see it. Sinful man has no autonomy outside Gods control and Sovereignty. Sinful man, apart from regeneration, has no inclination or desire towards spiritual good. Second Romans 9 gives a good reason why God created man. To demonstrate His mercy, love, and kindness on the vessels of mercy He chose to save in Christ. And to demonstrate His power, wrath and judgement on the vessels of wrath fitted for such. God has decreed all that has come to pass to glorify Himself in Christ. All sin and death will be done away with in heaven
 
On a recent STR Ask podcast, Greg Koukl was asked: “Since we will presumably have free will in Heaven and yet be unable to sin, why didn’t God just make things that way in the first place?”

Greg’s response: “I think that is one of the most difficult questions to answer and I have a general answer but it’s not one I am certain of because this is another one of those; 'Why did God … kind of questions.” Greg's typically response to those kind of questions (Why did God…do such and such) is; If the Bible doesn’t say why God did such and such, then we are guessing at the answer, and likely wrong.

Given the unsubstantiated assumption made in the questioner’s question (we will be unable to sin in Heaven), how would you answer the question? I have some thoughts to post later.


https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/strask-with-greg-koukl/id1030958668?mt=2&i=1000409237166
Where in Bible does it state that the ones who (ultimately)make it will have a freewill. When Jesus Himself does NOT have one . Didn't he say repeatedly "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me."
John 6:38
John 4:34 He even called doing God's will His food
" For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me."
And in Matthew 7:21Jesus clearly pronounces that only those followers will enter His sanctuary who do this will of the Father . Thus scripture is abundantly clear that wicked selfish willingly sinful have no chance of making it, no matter how hard they shout and scream that they believe in Jesus . It's not going to work . Take Paul's doctrine out and examine the rest of the Bible . No salvation without doing God's will over ours ( wilful obedience) .
In heaven also we will have no will like angels. Jesus said we will be like angels. Mark 12:25.
Whoever fails to do God's will will not make it to heaven, despite all the assurances many pastors hand out nowdays. Read sermon on the mount . Jesus clearly states unless we are not radically willing to fight our sinful nature and pursue righteousness there is no chance of being saved. Paul's words have been used over-used misused and abused to guarantee salvation. Salvation is only possible if we do God's will over ours. At least give our best shot. For that very reason many believing but non practicing Christians who choose to live in sin risk judgment.
In the OT Father God was so furious with the sinfulness of His people that he allowed them to become cannibals and eat their own sons! So great and hideous is the backlash of sin.
MOTHERS WHO ATE THEIR SONS
2 Kings 6:26-30
When King Benhadad of Syria besieged Samaria severe famine overtook those within the city, and as Israel’s king, Jehoram, went around the defenses encouraging his garrison, a woman seeing him appealed to him for justice against her neighbor. The two women, driven to despair by the terrible scarcity of food, entered into a pact to eat their sons. One day the two women ate one of the boys, but the next day the mother whose son was still alive hid him and refused to deliver him up for human consumption. When the king heard this appalling story from the woman whose son had been eaten, he dressed himself in sackcloth, a sign of his desire to appease the wrath of Jehovah who permitted the dire famine because of the nation’s departure from Him.

Paul may say we are under ministry of grace . But the sin issue is as flagrant as it was when God allowed the Jews to get destroyed at the hands of their enemies because of sin. Similarly the Messiah righteousness will be imputed only to those believers who are willing to pick up their cross daily , deny their flesh and follow the Lord. Not otherwise . Salvation ain't so easy guys . I believe and I'm saved . Says who? Certainly not Jesus. Let's take heed guys and this very moment make a solemn resolve to DO THE WILL OF GOD FROM THIS VERY MOMENT ONWARDS.
Dear friends there is no other way but this . Believe in Christ and do the Will of God .
Christian walk is a very hard walk and there are no short cuts .As Jesus fell more than once as He carried His cross , so shall we. But the good Lord will always help us get up and walk to our golgatha. Yes as He was crucified we will get crucified too. Some emotionally , others physically (through disease or persecution ) as All apostles were martyred( save John for writing Revelation ) and we are not greater than them or Jesus.
John 15:20

Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.

So my dear friends , please do not believe the pastors or teachers who promise salvation just by believing in Christ . That's just the starting point . Now starts the long arduous walk ..... A walk of righteousness, a walk of obedience a walk IN the Holy Spirit . Even as we suffer we will have his joy in us . Plus an ETERNAL reward .​
 
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The first command of God soon broken as sin entered into the heart of man as he was tempted with evil.

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD

Only one man found favor, but yet again with a new generation man became sinful turning away from God following after their own lust making gods for themselves.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

There will be no freewill or sin in the New Jerusalem as death is swallowed up in victory through that of Christ Jesus as we who are in Christ and He in us will be transformed incorruptible and immortal and can no longer sin.
 
How did Satan get into The Garden Of Eden anyways? Was The Garden not protected by angels?
Sounds like you're referring to Genesis 3:22-24. The cherubim were placed at the entrance to the Garden after man was evicted to guard the entrance.

Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. NKJV
 
Sounds like you're referring to Genesis 3:22-24. The cherubim were placed at the entrance to the Garden after man was evicted to guard the entrance.

Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. NKJV
I think Lucian wanted to know why God didn't put an angel BEFORE the fall. Like prevent Satan, the snake , from entering the garden
 
I think Lucian wanted to know why God didn't put an angel BEFORE the fall. Like prevent Satan, the snake , from entering the garden
Yes, that was the idea behind my questions. It does seem a bit strange for God to create a couple of creatures (Adam and Eve) that were spiritually and physically inferior to the fallen angels, and then just let them wander around through an unprotected garden where Satan had free access to enter.
 
Wasn't that Adam's job? How often do we get ourselves in a mess due to exactly the same failing ...
God knew Adam would fail. He knew it all. Proof is book of Revelation which reveals what is yet to happen. Even that has ALREADY happened in His eyes,in His time! That's why it was shown to John . It was like John had time travelled into the future, which may he God's present. Coming back to Adam's fall, did God want it ? The answer is no ( else He wouldn't have cursed mankind). Did God KNOW. Yes He did . Did he encourage the serpent to enter the garden of Eden? No He didn't. But, neither did he prevent him. I believe God uses Satan to test the mankind . The story of Job points to that. The story of mankind started with a sad occurrence (the fall) but has a Happy ending thanks to the second Adam , Jesus Christ (1 Cor 15:45) our Lord.
The fall had to happen for Grace to come . It's like death has to come for immortality ( in Christ) to occur. I know it sounds preposterous and insane,but then that's how God traps the wicked in their ways. His ways are so different than our ways ..... Isaiah 55:9
I summarize this post with this thought . Everything God did, met the fate He knew, even before He created! Today from one Adam He has more than a billion children who follow the Lord Jesus Christ. The story of God's love and Grace, the Bible, has an incredibly happy end . A resounding end! There will no more be wickedness or wicked ( all having been condemned to burn in hell for an eternity) . God USED ( yes in past tense) the serpent (also) to accomplish HIS WILL. The deceiver was deceived. To understand everything that is in Bible, it's important to read ( study) Genesis thru Revelation. And then everything makes perfect sense . Else it does not . Praise be to The Father , the Son & the Holy Spirit.To them alone belongs all glory. And we are the prodigal sons ( and daughters) who, He will forgive and will let us partake in His glory...... FOREVER. Peace and blessings to all.
 
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There are many things we cannot and will not understand. We just trust God and accept that He is perfect and just. I like your thoughts on this Rajesh. It's also good to be reminded there is a happy ending. If we can't trust God who can we trust?
 
God knew Adam would fail. He knew it all. Proof is book of Revelation which reveals what is yet to happen. Even that has ALREADY happened in His eyes,in His time! That's why it was shown to John . It was like John had time travelled into the future, which may he God's present. Coming back to Adam's fall, did God want it ? The answer is no ( else He wouldn't have cursed mankind). Did God KNOW. Yes He did . Did he encourage the serpent to enter the garden of Eden? No He didn't. But, neither did he prevent him. I believe God uses Satan to test the mankind . The story of Job points to that. The story of mankind started with a sad occurrence (the fall) but has a Happy ending thanks to the second Adam , Jesus Christ (1 Cor 15:45) our Lord.
The fall had to happen for Grace to come . It's like death has to come for immortality ( in Christ) to occur. I know it sounds preposterous and insane,but then that's how God traps the wicked in their ways. His ways are so different than our ways ..... Isaiah 55:9
I summarize this post with this thought . Everything God did, met the fate He knew, even before He created! Today from one Adam He has more than a billion children who follow the Lord Jesus Christ. The story of God's love and Grace, the Bible, has an incredibly happy end . A resounding end! There will no more be wickedness or wicked ( all having been condemned to burn in hell for an eternity) . God USED ( yes in past tense) the serpent (also) to accomplish HIS WILL. The deceiver was deceived. To understand everything that is in Bible, it's important to read ( study) Genesis thru Revelation. And then everything makes perfect sense . Else it does not . Praise be to The Father , the Son & the Holy Spirit.To them alone belongs all glory. And we are the prodigal sons ( and daughters) who, He will forgive and will let us partake in His glory...... FOREVER. Peace and blessings to all.
In addition, I also believe part of the reason is love. This may sound backwards but I don't believe love can be love unless there is a potential for something less than love. There's an old saying that I remember from my past that said, "If you love something, let it go and if it returns then the love is real." or something along those lines.

I have wondered similarly about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Why did God create the garden for us, give us everything we could possibly need, and then plant a forbidden tree in its midst?

I don't believe God create us to be puppets to do exactly as He programmed. He created us with an ability to choose our own destiny. He created us out of love, to love, and to love Him in return and the only real test of that love is for it to be given without strings.

We made our choice to choose death when we gave in to temptation and God nearly gave us all what we wanted for it. But, in His infinite love He provided a way for us to return our love through the Savior, the Christ Jesus. Thank God for Jesus!
 
In addition, I also believe part of the reason is love. This may sound backwards but I don't believe love can be love unless there is a potential for something less than love. There's an old saying that I remember from my past that said, "If you love something, let it go and if it returns then the love is real." or something along those lines.

I have wondered similarly about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Why did God create the garden for us, give us everything we could possibly need, and then plant a forbidden tree in its midst?

I don't believe God create us to be puppets to do exactly as He programmed. He created us with an ability to choose our own destiny. He created us out of love, to love, and to love Him in return and the only real test of that love is for it to be given without strings.

We made our choice to choose death when we gave in to temptation and God nearly gave us all what we wanted for it. But, in His infinite love He provided a way for us to return our love through the Savior, the Christ Jesus. Thank God for Jesus!
Amen and amen. The whole story of Bible reveals God's great love . And in Christ we saw that great Agape love Personified. To learn to love is the message . Actually we do the Will of God when we love . And not as the world loves but as God loves us . That's honoring, obeying, and believing , all rolled in one----- in my opinion -------when we love :)
Matthew 22: 37-40
John 13:34 -35
Excellent post there brother WIP
 
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