Why did God create humans with the freewill to sin only to re-create glorified humans without the ability to sin?

[ivdavid]

(I've personally felt it easier to read a series of single central thoughts per post than a single post containing multiple thoughts...just sharing this in case someone thinks I'm spamming...)

Central thought: The Protestant Reformation was based on denying freewill and upholding Monergism.

Not that one should weigh traditions on its own, but history can teach us - more so specially when it's founded on Scriptural arguments. Martin Luther debates Erasmus on the topic of freewill, "the grand hinge upon which the whole turned", in his 'Bondage of the Will' -

In this, moreover, I give you great praise, and proclaim it — you alone in pre-eminent distinction from all others, have entered upon the thing itself; that is, the grand turning point of the cause; and, have not wearied me with those irrelevant points about popery, purgatory, indulgences, and other like baubles, rather than causes, with which all have hitherto tried to hunt me down, — though in vain! You, and you alone saw, what was the grand hinge upon which the whole turned, and therefore you attacked the vital part at once; for which, from my heart, I thank you.

Jonathan Edwards addresses the same in his Freedom of the Will, again upholding the same denying of freewill in man as we speak of it.

I'm merely stating that it should give us pause to go against a rich legacy of godly puritans. Of course, they're men and can be wrong - but we could conclude that after genuinely considering their references and interpretations to Scripture, not before?

 

[ivdavid]

Central Thought: "Freewill" is misunderstood because we commonly refer to 'will' as indicative of choice whereas Scripture does not.

(All numbered references point to the Greek root words from Strong's Greek Dictionary and can be looked up on blueletterbible.org)
Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing(G1014), remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will(G2309), but thine, be done.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel(G1014) of his own will(G2309):
Gal 4:20 I desire(G2309) to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

As seen above, the English language has used the same word 'will' to denote the different words 'desire' and 'counsel', but not to denote 'choice'.

The word for 'choice' is the same root word as of 'election' which conveys the meaning of an act of selection from available options.
Luk 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen(G1586) that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose(G1586) life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election(G1586) of grace.

 

[ivdavid]

Central Thought: The flesh generates our desires and counsel before we are birthed in the spirit.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things (3) after the counsel (2) of his own will (1):

There is a sequence of events in each act/deed of ours as is with God in whose image we're created. A being's nature first generates desires/wills(G2309), then generates counsel/wills(G1014) on such desires and finally works out the counselled desire.

There are Desires/lusts of the flesh -
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will(G2309) of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Our Mind/understanding(G3563) generates Counsel on such desires. Before our rebirth, our Mind is of the Flesh -
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind(G3563)

We are rebirthed in the spirit by the Holy Spirit -
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

When we are rebirthed in the spirit(God-nature), we no longer are as before in the flesh(human-nature), though it still is operational -
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And in the spirit, our previously old-creature fleshly Mind is renewed in the new-inner-creature (Eph 3:16) -
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind(G3563);
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after/by God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This renewed Mind in the spirit is the Mind of Christ Himself -
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind(G3563) of Christ.

 

[Razeontherock]

As seen above, the English language has used the same word 'will' to denote the different words 'desire' and 'counsel', but not to denote 'choice'.

The word for 'choice' is the same root word as of 'election' which conveys the meaning of an act of selection from available options.

I find that most disagreements between believers come down to misunderstanding, often due just to using the same word differently. When I think of freewill I don't think of anything those who argue against it claim. We are free to choose from all available options; many times that selection has a total of one. That doesn't mean we don't have free will, it just means we have limited options (or think we do)

Victorious Christian living, overcoming as Jesus exhorts us to, is quite often about seeing options we didn't know we had, and choosing those. "Walk in newness of life."

This is what 'streets of gold's refers to. Gold in Scripture generally denotes God's ways. They are NOT supposed to be mysterious to us!

 

[ivdavid]

We are free to choose from all available options; many times that selection has a total of one. That doesn't mean we don't have free will, it just means we have limited options...

Exactly. So when one denies freewill, they're not exactly denying one's ability to choose - they're only denying that they have any Good options to choose from - since before our rebirth we are in the Flesh and have a Fleshly mind and there is no good in our Flesh.

 

[Razeontherock]

That's another tricky thing to define: what Paul really meant when he said "flesh." Easy to see how people could've gotten confused into gnosticism, but what he meant was more nuanced than simply our skin and hormones.

 

[ivdavid]

That's another tricky thing to define: what Paul really meant when he said "flesh." Easy to see how people could've gotten confused into gnosticism, but what he meant was more nuanced than simply our skin and hormones.

True. But at minimum, isn't it sufficient in this case to simply treat it as a placeholder term - where we already do know from Scriptures,
1. that there is nothing good in my flesh
2. and that I am birthed in my flesh alone until the Holy Spirit births me again in my spirit
3. and therefore nothing good can come out of me until I am birthed again as a new creature?

If we must attempt to define the Flesh beyond tissue and bones, I'd work backwards from Gal 5:25 - where I pick up on the phrases "in the spirit" and "walk/march by the spirit" - indicating a state of existence as well as a cause of action.
The same "walking by the spirit" is repeated in Rom 8:4 and contrasted against a "walking by the flesh" - indicating the flesh to cause action too.
Rom 8:5 continues the argument - walking by the flesh implies that they are "inclined to the things of the flesh" - indicating that the flesh has inclinations.
Rom 8:6 declares that the inclinations of the flesh are death and provides the reason in Rom 8:7 stating that the inclinations of the flesh are enmity against God, are not subject to God's law, neither indeed can be!
Rom 8:8 draws a conclusion from all the above - linking the causative action of the flesh back to its state of existence - stating that those "in the flesh" can never please God.
And the solution to pleasing God is presented in Rom 8:9 - you no longer are "in the flesh" but "in the spirit" if you are birthed again.

How then again can anyone claim a person to be "free" in any sense of the word "in the flesh" that "can never please God"? Of course, they are 'free to choose' to act by the flesh - they're not robots or puppets there - but then again, we'd refer to it as being enslaved to sin in the flesh and not refer to it as being free to choose to sin while they're equally not free to choose not to sin in the flesh.

Observing the parallelism, I'd surmise that just as our spirit denotes God's nature operating within us, our flesh must denote our own self-nature operating within us.

And attempting to answer the OP, God created us in the flesh first to give us the knowledge of who we are as a creature by ourselves (corrupt) contrasted against who God is as He is (Holy). The kingdom of heaven will never have any possibility of deception, sin or a fall since all chosen in Christ will have the spirit ie God's nature working out good works in them, our flesh(self-nature) having perished.

 

[ivdavid]

Adam and Eve may not have sinned if Satan had not been there.
In heaven there will be no temptation. Satan and his army will not be there.

First and foremost, because there will be no sin influence upon us in heaven, and those who went through an earthly life wont ever get the big head (like Lucifer did) on their own with their free will...because they would have already witnessed him being cast into the lake of fire!

Not looking at just mankind but looking wholly at all creation, angels included, I believe it's incorrect to attribute the root cause of the fall to satan and his deceptions in the garden - since we'll have to then attribute a cause to why satan fell on his own without any deceptions.

What makes sense as a theory to me is that God created autonomous creatures with their own self-natures that could self-generate inclinations, desires, counsel, works and He created them good knowing full well that by definition of them not having God's nature, they'd inevitably fall short of the Glory of God (Karl Baath's creational entropy).
The inciting cause for satan, with all his beauty, wisdom and splendor, to fall was for God to love and walk with man who was created lesser than the angels. Satan, filled with self-pride, has already fallen here while he plots to ruin man's envious relationship with God.
God does not condemn satan though he is corrupt before he acts out sin in such corruption in lying to Eve(Rom 3:4). And God does not immediately throw satan in the lakes of fire in judgment for then He'd also have to throw Adam and Eve there in judgment - so satan continues to exist here until judgement day as the weeds with the wheat until the harvest.

Isn't it the same as we believing in Original Sin and the Federal Headship of Adam, that in one man all sinned - where there is no difference between any of us in the flesh, any of us if created as the first man and woman would've sinned exactly the same way in the flesh. I'd extend the same thought to any of us, if created as the wisest angel would've fallen exactly the same way given that we still are the creature and not God. All the more reason we throw ourselves upon God in faith, denying our self-natures/flesh, trusting Him to work out good in us(Eph 2:10, Php 2:13) in the spirit ie His own God-nature - thereby we becoming gods, children of the Most High(John 10:34).

 

[Edward]

Not looking at just mankind but looking wholly at all creation, angels included, I believe it's incorrect to attribute the root cause of the fall to satan and his deceptions in the garden - since we'll have to then attribute a cause to why satan fell on his own without any deceptions.

What makes sense as a theory to me is that God created autonomous creatures with their own self-natures that could self-generate inclinations, desires, counsel, works and He created them good knowing full well that by definition of them not having God's nature, they'd inevitably fall short of the Glory of God (Karl Baath's creational entropy).
The inciting cause for satan, with all his beauty, wisdom and splendor, to fall was for God to love and walk with man who was created lesser than the angels. Satan, filled with self-pride, has already fallen here while he plots to ruin man's envious relationship with God.
God does not condemn satan though he is corrupt before he acts out sin in such corruption in lying to Eve(Rom 3:4). And God does not immediately throw satan in the lakes of fire in judgment for then He'd also have to throw Adam and Eve there in judgment - so satan continues to exist here until judgement day as the weeds with the wheat until the harvest.

Isn't it the same as we believing in Original Sin and the Federal Headship of Adam, that in one man all sinned - where there is no difference between any of us in the flesh, any of us if created as the first man and woman would've sinned exactly the same way in the flesh. I'd extend the same thought to any of us, if created as the wisest angel would've fallen exactly the same way given that we still are the creature and not God. All the more reason we throw ourselves upon God in faith, denying our self-natures/flesh, trusting Him to work out good in us(Eph 2:10, Php 2:13) in the spirit ie His own God-nature - thereby we becoming gods, children of the Most High(John 10:34).

That kinda makes sense. I think scripture says that God found iniquitity in Lucifers heart. So they obviously had free will. He prolly became envious through pride and dwelled on it, and it led to more ungodliness.

I think we will still have free will in heaven. But will love God so much, and already know that our will...will make us do the wrong thing, so we won't.
I prove to myself almost every day that my will will fail me and make me do the wrong thing. The only thing I (we) can do, is to submit our will unto Gods will.
Day by day, moment by moment. Abiding in His presence.

 

[Razeontherock]

How then again can anyone claim a person to be "free" in any sense of the word "in the flesh" that "can never please God"? Of course, they are 'free to choose' to act by the flesh - they're not robots or puppets there - but then again, we'd refer to it as being enslaved to sin in the flesh and not refer to it as being free to choose to sin while they're equally not free to choose not to sin in the flesh.

This is why I generally don't find it useful to engage in the concept of freewill. It's not a Scriptural term, and usually if people are discussing it they're missing each other's points because they're using it to refer to different things.

Scripture refers to sin as bondage; it's an overarching theme throughout Scripture, albeit a minor one. God doesn't work on our sin nature /flesh, nor does He teach us how to or expect us to figure it out. He KILLED it!! And invites us into the always new reality that is abiding in Him. He's rather joyful in the work He did there! He approaches us from the perspective of what we're missing.

Observing the parallelism, I'd surmise that just as our spirit denotes God's nature operating within us, our flesh must denote our own self-nature operating within us.

Yes! This is my takeaway, too. "The exchanged life." I wonder if this has anything to do with your screen name? An IV? Like a blood transfusion.

And after being born in the Spirit, I find the main thing starts in the mind, learning to think as God thinks and see as God sees before much else changes. Some experience it differently.

And attempting to answer the OP, God created us in the flesh first to give us the knowledge of who we are as a creature by ourselves (corrupt) contrasted against who God is as He is (Holy). The kingdom of heaven will never have any possibility of deception, sin or a fall since all chosen in Christ will have the spirit ie God's nature working out good works in them, our flesh(self-nature) having perished.

This is also my take on the subject. I worded it differently but we are in agreement. There's a process that He designed, and it's good. This is also the answer to theodicy.

 

[chessman]

And attempting to answer the OP, God created us in the flesh first to give us the knowledge of who we are as a creature by ourselves (corrupt) contrasted against who God is as He is (Holy). The kingdom of heaven will never have any possibility of deception, sin or a fall since all chosen in Christ will have the spirit ie God's nature working out good works in them, our flesh(self-nature) having perished.

Thanks. That’s pretty much my answer too. For us to be saved, we need a Savior (then, now and in the future).

This is also my take on the subject. I worded it differently but we are in agreement.

Me three (or four, Paul, or five if Timothy got it):

Therefore, do not be ashamed-of the testimony of our Lord nor me His prisoner, but suffer-hardship-with me for the good-news according-to the power of God: the One having saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according-to our works but according to His own purpose and grace— it having been given to us in Christ Jesus before eternal times but now having been revealed through the appearance of our Savior Christ Jesus, He having abolished death and brought-to-light life and immortality through the good-news​

2 Timothy 1:8-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Timothy 1:8-10&version=DLNT

... But I am not ashamed, for I know in Whom I have believed and am convinced that He is able to guard my deposit until that day.​

2 Timothy 1:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Timothy 1:12&version=DLNT

Me too Paul, me too!

 

[jeremiah1five]

God created man/Adam sin-ful, or as Strong's defines the word "missing the mark."
What is the "mark?"
The glory of God (or the glory that is God.)
There is only One God, there is none like Him, He gives His glory (of which sinless-ness is one glory and Deific Attribute of God.)
The existence of the Law (of God) shows us humans that we are sinners, yes?
Paul said:
Romans 7:7 (KJV)
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul is explaining that in the Law, the Command of "Thou shalt not covet" exists and reveals that the existence of this "Thou shalt not" covet" shows us that lust is sin and violation of the holiness and righteousness of God and that we are indeed sinners as it not only applies to Paul but to all mankind because all mankind does "lust" and this is a sin against God. There is no difference between the Law of God and His Commands. The Law(s) of God are His Commands and the Commands of God are Law.

In the Garden of Eden God used a regular tree and He called it the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil to show and give Adam the KNOWLEDGE of his sinful-ness. There was no poison in the Tree or its fruit. It was used of God to give Adam the KNOWLEDGE of his sinful-ness even before he disobeyed and ate the forbidden fruit.

Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, THOU SHALT NOT eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

There it is: The Law of God in His Command. The "Thou shalt not" proves Adam was a sinner BEFORE he disobeyed God. The application of what Paul was teaching the Christians at Rome follows the same argument Paul explained.

ADAM: "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known DISOBEDIENCE, except the law had said, Thou shalt not [eat of it.]"

There is only One God. Man/Adam did not possess any Deific Attributes of God. Adam was not created sinless for there is only One God, there is none like Him, and He gives His glory to none. The only two Persons that can stand before a Holy God is a Holy Son and Holy Spirit. God cannot re-duplicate Himself in Himself which meant that if He wanted a sinless creature, His Righteousness would have to be IMPUTED and that's what the Son did (2 Cor. 5:21.)
There is no way Adam was possessing God's glory, His Deific Attributes of sinless-ness because in order to stand before a Holy God Adam would have to possess ALL Deific Attributes (like the second Adam - 1 Cor. 15:45-50.)

1 Corinthians 15:45-50 (KJV)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

I can explain more, but this response is already long enough. The bottom line is this:

Adam sinned because he was a sinner, he is not a sinner because he sinned. Christ, the 'last Adam' was Holy, He was sinless - He did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth.

God's revealed Law of "Thou shalt not" in the Garden reveals that Adam was a sinner BEFORE he sinned. Sin does not come from holy, as some in Christendom believe and teach in teaching Adam was sinless, of created holy, or "innocent," for there is only One God.
One day our bodies will be changed in a twinkle-twinkle of His eye. As Paul also said in 1 Corinthians 15 we were sown(created) in corruption and one day we shall be raised (Eph. 2:1) in incorruption, but not now. God created man/Adam sin-ful ("missing the mark") of the glory of God. That's the only way God can create a man - or animals.
There is only One God.

I hope this helps.

 

[atpollard]

[GenEli’s 1:26-31 NASB] 26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth." 29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, [I have given] every green plant for food"; and it was so. 31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

jeremiah1five
The Adam you describe does not sound “very good” or “the image of God” to me.

 

[jeremiah1five]

[GenEli’s 1:26-31 NASB] 26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth." 29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, [I have given] every green plant for food"; and it was so. 31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

jeremiah1five
The Adam you describe does not sound “very good” or “the image of God” to me.

Hello atpollard.
Many in Christendom think the word God used at the end of a creative act means [morally] "good."

The word in Genesis means "to specification," or "good enough."
When I point this out they can't accept this because it throws a wrench into their belief-system.

The image of God is not Adam. Remember, God breathed the human side of our Savior into the nostrils of the first man. But because the man (Joseph) was removed from the Messiah birth-question, our Savior was born without sin for it is in the man that sin is passed on to their children through the sperm. There was no human sperm used to birth the Savior.

1 Corinthians 15:47 (KJV)
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Question: Is God of the earth?
Answer: No, He is not.

Hebrews 1:3 (KJV)
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

If you have any children when they were born and you first laid eyes on him/her, did they look like an Ethiopian on the other side of the planet? Or an Eskimo?

Earthy Adam is not the image of God. The image of God is Christ and THAT is who God said to "let us make [the new man in Christ] in our image.... it is Christ who will have the dominion over the animals, the mammals, over the fish of the sea (throw your net on the right side of the boat), etc.

There is no better image of a Father than a Son. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[stovebolts]

jeremiah1five
When scripture says "our image", how do you understand that? What , and / or - who's image?

 

[jeremiah1five]

jeremiah1five
When scripture says "our image", how do you understand that? What , and / or - who's image?

Stove, it depends on the context. Do you have a passage we can look at?
Or are we at Genesis because there is Hebrews 1:3, and others.

 

[stovebolts]

Stove, it depends on the context. Do you have a passage we can look at?
Or are we at Genesis because there is Hebrews 1:3, and others.

How about we start with Genesis 1:26

From there, we can move to Genesis 1:27

After that, I feel Genesis 2:7 could be discussed.

We may need to lay the groundwork of why there are two accounts....

From there, we can explore other texts.

 

[jeremiah1five]

How about we start with Genesis 1:26

From there, we can move to Genesis 1:27

After that, I feel Genesis 2:7 could be discussed.

We may need to lay the groundwork of why there are two accounts....

From there, we can explore other texts.

OK, Stove. We have the target verses. What is it we're discussing?

 

[stovebolts]

OK, Stove. We have the target verses. What is it we're discussing?

Please see post 115

 

[jeremiah1five]

Please see post 115

Ah, the old see-post-#115-image-of-God trick!
I'll see you on a new thread.