I am not a Christian okay, and the reason why is because of Christian's. I think that's fair, that I should judge how effective Jesus teachings are based on how Christian's perform in this world. I have never seen one Christian live up to anything close to what Jesus teaches can be accomplished through him, and why is that exactly?
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Why? Howcome? & Whocares?
- Thread starter YumChow
- Start date
KevinK
Member
I agree it's a fair question, and I think you've got a fair assessment of the situation, unfortunately. Most so-called Christians do fall woefully short. They are lukewarm at best, CHINOs at worst. They think they are saved through Jesus Christ, but in their personal life commit all kinds of unrepentant sin. I don't think they are saved. I think a lot of "Christians" wind up in Hell. In fact, I heard the ratio is insane, like only 1 in a thousand make it. I don't know it it's really that bad, but I'm sure the truth is astonishing.
But this only means one should re-examine their own commitment to Christianity, and be one of the few.
But this only means one should re-examine their own commitment to Christianity, and be one of the few.
Few are on the proper road.
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew 7:13-14 NKJV
Not everyone who calls themselves a Christian really is a Christian.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:21-23 ESV
Jesus told us how to identify His followers:
By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” John 13:35 NKJV
Go by what Jesus said, not by what men say. Christians love me. All of them. I can tell you from personal experience that there is a tremendous difference between Christians and non Christians. I like Christians, and I like God.
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew 7:13-14 NKJV
Not everyone who calls themselves a Christian really is a Christian.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:21-23 ESV
Jesus told us how to identify His followers:
By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” John 13:35 NKJV
Go by what Jesus said, not by what men say. Christians love me. All of them. I can tell you from personal experience that there is a tremendous difference between Christians and non Christians. I like Christians, and I like God.
Luminous_Rose
CF Ambassador
Hello YumChow! Welcome to CF.net!
I get what you are saying. The word Christian, I have heard means "like Christ", and many of us strive to be. There are many that are "lukewarm" (false converts, really) - they want to think they are Christian enough to be saved, but still do whatever they please. The Holy Bible clearly warns about such people. You are 100% for Jesus or not for him at all.
Revelation 3:14-16 tells us:
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
Let us not forget Jesus' word to the Pharisees:
Matthew 23:25-28 :
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
In God's eyes, this is a serious issue. There are many false converts out there. Some grew up in the church and others didn't. Some people want to use the title Christian when it suits them, and it is frustrating and sad, and unfortunately extremely common. We live in a world full of sin. As Romans 3:23 tells us we have all fallen short. We have freewill and make our own , which means some choose to be false converts.
Christians are not perfect people and when you find those whose hearts are genuinely in Christ you will see it and know it. Those true believers in Christ out there will be doing their best and still making mistakes, but always learning to be better.
I get what you are saying. The word Christian, I have heard means "like Christ", and many of us strive to be. There are many that are "lukewarm" (false converts, really) - they want to think they are Christian enough to be saved, but still do whatever they please. The Holy Bible clearly warns about such people. You are 100% for Jesus or not for him at all.
Revelation 3:14-16 tells us:
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
Let us not forget Jesus' word to the Pharisees:
Matthew 23:25-28 :
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
In God's eyes, this is a serious issue. There are many false converts out there. Some grew up in the church and others didn't. Some people want to use the title Christian when it suits them, and it is frustrating and sad, and unfortunately extremely common. We live in a world full of sin. As Romans 3:23 tells us we have all fallen short. We have freewill and make our own , which means some choose to be false converts.
Christians are not perfect people and when you find those whose hearts are genuinely in Christ you will see it and know it. Those true believers in Christ out there will be doing their best and still making mistakes, but always learning to be better.
It's great to have you here with us and feel free to ask questions. Have a great day and God bless! 
Hi YumChow and welcome to CF 
You have brought up a serious concern as the word Christian has become a source of anguish especially to someone like you that is not Spiritually born again. In John 3:1-7 Nicodemus came to Jesus as He already knew why Nicodemus came to Him and Jesus straightway explained to him how one enters the kingdom of God.
This is the problem with many that call themselves Christians as they have never humbled themselves before the Lord and submitted their lives to Him to learn who He is as our Lord and Savior and walk in obedience to His commands. They have no clue how to love and treat others as they have not the light of Christ in them.
Luminous_Rose gave great examples of this with the scriptures she already gave. I don't even like to call myself a Christian as the name has become so muddied by others that call themselves a Christian, but display no fruits of the Spirit so I call myself a Spiritually born again child of God saved by His mercy and grace.
Am I perfect, no and far from it, but am being perfected by God daily as I draw closer to Him through the relationship and fellowship I have with Him and His Son Jesus. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, John 3:6. This is the problem with those who call themselves a Christian as they are still in the flesh as they are not indwelled with nor walking in the Holy Spirit displaying the fruits of the Spirit of God.
Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Don't through out the whole bushel of apples because of there being some rotten ones in there, but separate the good from the bad. We are to judge a person by the fruits they display and I pray you will see those good fruits within this forum as we are all learning as no one is perfect as we all have our flaws we are working on as we strive for that perfection in Christ.
You have brought up a serious concern as the word Christian has become a source of anguish especially to someone like you that is not Spiritually born again. In John 3:1-7 Nicodemus came to Jesus as He already knew why Nicodemus came to Him and Jesus straightway explained to him how one enters the kingdom of God.
This is the problem with many that call themselves Christians as they have never humbled themselves before the Lord and submitted their lives to Him to learn who He is as our Lord and Savior and walk in obedience to His commands. They have no clue how to love and treat others as they have not the light of Christ in them.
Luminous_Rose gave great examples of this with the scriptures she already gave. I don't even like to call myself a Christian as the name has become so muddied by others that call themselves a Christian, but display no fruits of the Spirit so I call myself a Spiritually born again child of God saved by His mercy and grace.
Am I perfect, no and far from it, but am being perfected by God daily as I draw closer to Him through the relationship and fellowship I have with Him and His Son Jesus. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, John 3:6. This is the problem with those who call themselves a Christian as they are still in the flesh as they are not indwelled with nor walking in the Holy Spirit displaying the fruits of the Spirit of God.
Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Don't through out the whole bushel of apples because of there being some rotten ones in there, but separate the good from the bad. We are to judge a person by the fruits they display and I pray you will see those good fruits within this forum as we are all learning as no one is perfect as we all have our flaws we are working on as we strive for that perfection in Christ.
That's a legit question I guess and I guess that it would be based on our actions. None of us are perfect,.. trust me on this one. However if somebody truly knows Jesus and loves Him then they will keep His commands.
John 14:15 
Christ_empowered
Member
Try not to let the (admittedly, many) Christians who are no better than those in and of the world (and sometimes...sadly enough...worse...) prevent you from at least considering following Jesus.
I don't go to church. I've been saved nearly 7 years. Why? Well...here where I live, most churches are awesome...if you're conservative, respectable, etc. the progressive/liberal churches have largely tossed Scripture to pursue their own ends, which...is what it is. and yet...
Jesus has made me healthy, physically, when I was such an outcast that I was never going to be given treatment for my physical maladies. Jesus has even seen fit to make me smart, even though I did drugs and then I was given all kinds of heavy shock 'treatments,' basically to make me stupid and "more manageable." My eyes are bright now, even though a mean spirited psychiatrist at a hospital deliberately destroyed me and left me dead eyed, for a season. and so...
I get where you're coming from, I really do. I spend Sundays with my family, and I hope they'll come to know and love the Jesus I know and love. They're through with church people, anyway.
Try to think of it this way...about 2,000 years ago, Jesus was on Earth, and He said that He was God made Flesh. Do you think he was insane, just some ancient mad man who ended up with a massive following? Do you think he was lying? Or do you think...
He's telling the Truth?
I think He's telling the Truth, obviously. People, by nature, are not that great...I've seen some horrible, petty human beings claim Christ, I don't know what that's about...
but I still love Jesus and I'm doing what I can to follow Him.
I don't go to church. I've been saved nearly 7 years. Why? Well...here where I live, most churches are awesome...if you're conservative, respectable, etc. the progressive/liberal churches have largely tossed Scripture to pursue their own ends, which...is what it is. and yet...
Jesus has made me healthy, physically, when I was such an outcast that I was never going to be given treatment for my physical maladies. Jesus has even seen fit to make me smart, even though I did drugs and then I was given all kinds of heavy shock 'treatments,' basically to make me stupid and "more manageable." My eyes are bright now, even though a mean spirited psychiatrist at a hospital deliberately destroyed me and left me dead eyed, for a season. and so...
I get where you're coming from, I really do. I spend Sundays with my family, and I hope they'll come to know and love the Jesus I know and love. They're through with church people, anyway.
Try to think of it this way...about 2,000 years ago, Jesus was on Earth, and He said that He was God made Flesh. Do you think he was insane, just some ancient mad man who ended up with a massive following? Do you think he was lying? Or do you think...
He's telling the Truth?
I think He's telling the Truth, obviously. People, by nature, are not that great...I've seen some horrible, petty human beings claim Christ, I don't know what that's about...
but I still love Jesus and I'm doing what I can to follow Him.
Luminous_Rose
CF Ambassador
This, too, is a good question.
Matthew 7:15-20 mentions:
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Fruits are mentioned here so let's see Galatians 5:22-26 where it mentions the Fruits of the Spirit:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
If a Christian is showing these characteristics/fruits, there is a good chance they are a genuine Christian. If a Christian is showing the desires of the flesh, they are clearly not genuinely saved.
Galatians 5:19-21 lists the desires of the flesh:
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
A lot of Christians today are misguided. For example, they may be told it is okay to sin because Jesus will just forgive us anyway. Where does The Holy Bible say this? No where. They are believing in a god that allows this, but it would not be our God. This could be a form of idolatry by worshipping self-gratification instead of God. This is just one example. There will be those that want to deceive others and some simply make poor choices before praying and reading God's word about the matter.
You may get a lot of your questions answered from this resource as well if you have a few minutes to spare:
Hell’s Best Kept Secret | Living Waters
Why do 80–90% of those making a decision for Christ fall away from the faith? What is the biblical principle that Spurgeon, Wesley, Whitefield, etc., used to reach the lost? Why has the Church neglected it? Don’t let anything stop you from listening to this incredible teaching.
www.livingwaters.com
JohnDB
Member
Being a Christian isn't about being perfect people... although we do try.
It isn't about charitable works... although we do that too.
It isn't about knowing the Bible...though many do.
It isn't a lot of things that people outside looking in think that it is.
It is about having a relationship with our Creator trying to please Him. Some people do better than others. The human race is full of variables...no two are alike. (Including twins)
You can always rant about a group of people.
It has been many different groups in times past. Such as Italians, Irish, Japanese, Indians and etc. Today it's the Muslims and for you it's the Christians.
Yeah... whatever.
Being mad at the world never helped anyone do anything worthwhile. Hitler hated the Jews. It made him a monster. You might want to re-think this rant you have going.
It isn't about charitable works... although we do that too.
It isn't about knowing the Bible...though many do.
It isn't a lot of things that people outside looking in think that it is.
It is about having a relationship with our Creator trying to please Him. Some people do better than others. The human race is full of variables...no two are alike. (Including twins)
You can always rant about a group of people.
It has been many different groups in times past. Such as Italians, Irish, Japanese, Indians and etc. Today it's the Muslims and for you it's the Christians.
Yeah... whatever.
Being mad at the world never helped anyone do anything worthwhile. Hitler hated the Jews. It made him a monster. You might want to re-think this rant you have going.
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 1 John 3:14 NKJV
What exactly do you mean by relationship? I am very suspect of this human expression being used in that context. Mainly because a relationship is multifaceted, and is not just rounded down to one form of human love.
Truthfrees
Member
get personal with God - talk to Him like you talk to a friend - read the bible and ask God to explain to you what HE is saying to you -
First quit looking how others who call themselves a Christian behave as not all are His own, Matthew 7:21. You said in another thread you have read the Bible cover to cover, but you have no Spiritual understanding as from the Holy Spirit teaching you. A true Christian will be displaying the fruits of the Spirit as they let the light of Christ shine through them, Mathew 5:13-16; Galatians 5:22-24.
You will know you are a true child of God by humbling yourself before the Lord and confessing Him as your Lord and Savior. You believe by faith that He is truly the Son of God, then by being Spiritually reborn again from above you will to see the kingdom of God, John 3:1-7, Romans 10:9,10; Ephesians 2:8-10.
This is the beginning of you having a personal relationship with Jesus as the relationship with Him starts by accepting Him as your Lord and Savior, by prayer (talking to Him and allowing Him to speak to your heart) and through studying the word of God as you pray and ask the Holy Spirit teach you that of what has already been written in the scriptures to learn who Jesus is and your relationship with Him. If you study the book of John this will explain who Jesus is and your relationship with Him.
Again, quit looking at people and put your focus on the Lord as there are many out there that say they are a Christian, but are wolves in sheep clothing wanting to devour you, Matthew 7:15-20.
Can you logically think that I've done that already, or does every person who has gone down that road end up a believer?
JohnDB
Member
There are as many types of relationships as there are people.
In the case we are discussing it is the relationship between a man (me) and God.
I'm sure that you have heard of adoption before.
Possibly about "Older Child Adoption".
And in case you don't know...Older Child Adoptions are the roughest kind. Because of the years of neglect and abuse as well as your birth parents not doing as they are supposed to you feel abandoned. And when a new family adopts you all that poison has to come out. And it is mostly taken out on the parents that actually love you the most...your adoptive parents.
A very select few are actually great kids who cause no trouble and are so grateful for the adoption that they never do anything but try to please the parents.
Unfortunately most don't go that way.
And in the case of me and God...I don't always do so well myself. I am often like that older child adoption., Sometimes though I do pretty good. Sometimes I don't. But I do try to please my Heavenly adoptive Father. And that is the kind of relationship I have with Him.
Now for others who have the same kind of relationship with God...well you have been ranting about how miserably they behave. And honestly it is up to God whether He keeps them or not.
And it is up to you whether you want to start one or not.
But I will tell you this warning:
God responds to complete sincerity and humility.
Honestly seeking Him with all humility and sincerity will gain His attention. And because if you have the before mentioned attitude while seeking Him...He will find you. And then all bets are off. You can't be and won't be the same ever again.
And as far as posers...well we got them running about too. Judas was one such famous poser. Some people think that it is great to be a member of the "Christian Club" for a variety of reasons. They are very annoying. I've run into them myself.
Where are you from John?
JohnDB
Member
I've lived all over. Visited many places too.
Currently I'm in Nashville TN.
Truthfrees
Member
not sure what you mean - can you clarify?
i was describing what having a relationship with God is
what are you saying? - that you tried it? - that you don't want to try it?
i can guarantee that if you want to know if God is real and you privately seek God seriously God will for sure answer you
if you don't care about this issue then you probably won't seek God seriously and then you will never know
i wanted to know if God was real and went on a serious search talking to God asking Him to prove to me He was real - and that the bible was real -
God did answer me in a convincing way and my life is now full of God
i continue to do the same thing about any question i have for God - i seek Him till i get a clear answer from Him
God bless you
What have you heard that has convinced you God is real? Even though you have explained that God will convince me he is real, can you tell me what I should look out for.