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Bible Study Why Sunday can NOT be the Lord's Day

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Eve777 said:
What day did the Early church meet, preach and bring thier tithes?

Act 20:7 And upon the first [day] of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

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1Cr 16:2 Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. [/b]

Your problem here, other than any express command or valide suport that this was a weekly occurence, is that you ignore the context of these events.

First of all, the disciples gathered together whenever they could on any day to break bread (Acts 2:46). This was not a celebration of the Lord's supper but a fellowshipping together. Also this was a special gathering to see Paul off on his journey (Which he did on the first day, a strange thing to do on a 'holy day').

Secondly, the offering taken up was also a special occasion as Paul was coming in to collect the offerings for his work. Paul was travelling through and needed the money. It is gratuitous assumption to say that this was tithes or that it was a weekly occurrence, or that it was part of a worship service. Rather, it is proper stewardship to put up the money when you have it rather than wait until the end of the week when the money would probably be spent.

Like most Sunday supporters, verses are interpreted by a preconceived idea that people worshipped on Sunday which replaced the Sabbath. Then context is ignored to twist them to fit that assumption. You can't study the Bible that way. Rather, we see obvious texts that Paul preached to the Jews and Gentiles (sometimes to the Gentiles ONLY) on the Sabbath. We have every reason to believe that Paul worked every other day making tents and travelling and preaching, including Sunday. The first day of the week is not given any religious significance in the NT.

Church historians will tell you that it was a ecclesiastical change, not a biblical one. You will not find any texts in support as Sunday as a holy day. This is why anti-sabbatarians find whatever they can to show that the Sabbath was done away with. There is no support for Sunday.
 
Whatever!
  • Here are the facts. The ONLY examples of christians meeting in the NT are on Sunday. No where do we find command or example in the NT of christians worshipping together on Saturday.
If you wish to worship on Saturday then by all means do so. But to follow NT pattern you must also meet on Sunday for worship.
  • I DO NOT advocate a "Sunday sabbath". That is as wrong as saying the sabbath is the christian day of worship. However, I live under the NT gospel of Jesus Christ and I will follow that pattern.
Also, it is interesting to note that all of the early church writers agreed that Sunday was the christian day of worship and even called Sunday the Lord's day.
 
Acts 20:7 -- This was written 30 - 40 years after Jesus' Passion.

The first day of the week is still being referred to as nothing more than just "the first day of the week".

The same with 1Cr 16:2, "the first day of the week" is just a day to do work, because it is nothing more than just "the first day of the week".

It is also significant that the Sabbath is called the Sabbath. This was not the common Greek way of referring to the seventh day of the week. So, Luke is actually giving additional meaning to the Sabbath by referring to it by name. He does not call it the "Jewish Sabbath" but simply "the Sabbath." (The Hebrewâ€â€or Aramaicâ€â€word was, in fact, borrowed by the New Testament writers.)



If the Sabbath had been removed, it should have been long since gone.

The date was probably in the middle or late 60's A.D. It was not common for Gentiles to call the seventh day of the week "the Sabbath," any more than it is common in the United States to call Saturday the Sabbath (And Theophilus, to whom the book was written, could have been a Gentile.)


So, when Luke says that Paul went into the synagogue on the Sabbath, he is commenting in effect that this was God's Sabbath or rest day, for he calls it just that. The connotation would be the same today if we heard someone call Saturday "the Sabbath"; we would think it significant and probably assume that that person kept Saturday as his Sabbath or rest day.


The same goes for Luke 23:56. The women rested on the Sabbath "according to the fourth commandment." This is not meant as a mere historical narrative but as a comment on that day actually being the Sabbath. Calling the seventh day, Sabbath, then is very significant, especially around 63 A.D. when Luke wrote his gospel.


http://intercontinentalcog.org/ICGCC/Lesson_Seven.shtml

http://www.nisbett.com/sabbath/sunday_not_lords_day.htm
 
Breaking bread just means to eat -- to eat a meal (Acts 27:34-35; Acts 2:46).
 
Collier said:
Whatever!
  • Here are the facts. The ONLY examples of christians meeting in the NT are on Sunday. No where do we find command or example in the NT of christians worshipping together on Saturday.
If you wish to worship on Saturday then by all means do so. But to follow NT pattern you must also meet on Sunday for worship.

You can 'whatever' all you want, Collier. If you want to make assumptions and then believe them despite the facts, I guess that is your perogative. However these are the facts:

1) No significance is given to Sunday as any other day then 'the first day of the week'
2) The Sabbath is obviously still valid and was observed by both Jew and Gentile, including Paul. The Gentiles came to hear the word of God on Sabbath alone apart from the Jews.

Just based on these facts alone, there is more validity to Sabbath keeping still valid for Christians then Sunday. If you follow the NT pattern, you should be keeping Sabbath.

As far as Christians worshipping on Sunday. It is a far cry to assume a few gatherings means all Christians worshipped, never mind every Sunday. Any meeting on the first day of the week was for a significant purpose outside of any supposed significance of Sunday. A few Christians met together to eat (break bread) because Paul was going on a trip (which he took on Sunday). Not exactly a worship service. This day could have easily been a Monday or Tuesday as far as its importance goes.

An offering was asked to be taken by Paul because he was coming in to town on his travels at that time. He needed the money right away. Somehow we are to take that these were tithes, and that all tithes were taken up every Sunday by every Christian?

Assumptions are merely that. You cannot make assumptions and then base your theology around that.

Collier said:
Also, it is interesting to note that all of the early church writers agreed that Sunday was the christian day of worship and even called Sunday the Lord's day.

Keeping Sunday instead of Sabbath didn't become an issue until 135 AD when Barnabas and Justin Martyr appealed to Emporer Hadrian to distinguish themselves from the Jews due to Roman persecution. It was anti-semitism and self-preservation more than any religious significance that prompted this desire for change. As a matter of fact, the initial reasoning given by Martyr for Sunday was 'Because God began creating the Sun and life on the first day" not because of the resurrection. The resurrection reason came later.

It is significant to note that the Christians at the head church of Jerusalem were keeping Sabbath well into the 4th century, and many followers felt both days were special. Sunday in honor of the resurrection, Sabbath as a memorial of creation and redemption. Only Sunday was not observed like the Sabbath.

We see that through the NT and through history, the Sabbath was valid and taken as valid by early Christians, regardless of when Sunday became an issue. Even when it did, Sabbath was still kept. I think that says something about the supposed NT support for the Sabbath being done away with, nevermind Sunday worship.
 
Bob10,

Are you suggesting that anybody who worships on a Sunday is not a Christian and is a child of the devil?

DIME Ministries,

If the counterfeit MARK/SIGN (Sunday), and the other unholy days the bureaucrates adopted from pagan religions constitute the "mark of the beast", then churchianity is in trouble.
 
You guys are allowing your religious spirits cloud your vision of the truth. (That was an insult if you are astute enough to comprehend what I meant by it)
Collier and Eve777 told you rightly.
If you feel you need to keep the sabbath; do so by all means. But do not under any circumstances try to force it upon others who don't.

If you are going to keep the Sabbath, you may as well keep the whole law.

You are the type of folks that Paul called Judaizers. He held them in contempt. He had nothing but insult to speak about them. In that day, they tried to force the issue of circumcision. (You are circumcised, btw, aren't you?) Paul told those Judaizers (your predecessors) that they should mutilate themselves. The word mutilate is a sarcastic reference to circumcision. It meant to cut the whole thing off. Why stop with a little bit of foreskin? Don't stop til you have to relieve your self through a bloody scab. Don't even leave a stump. If a preacher talked like that today, he would be censored.

But you little boys think that Paul agrees with you. He does not I assure you. You are lucky he is not alive today, and a member of this forum. If you think I get beligerant and crude, you wouldn't want to hear what Paul would say. The moderators here would have to ban him. He had a talent for coarse speech when he got riled. And people like you that want to put chains on other believers are the very ones that riled him the worst and the fastest.

If you feel the legalistic need to keep a Sabbath, do so. But keep it to yourself. You don't do well by telling others that it is a sin to not keep the sabbath.
 
phatdawg said:
If you are going to keep the Sabbath, you may as well keep the whole law.

You are the type of folks that Paul called Judaizers. He held them in contempt. He had nothing but insult to speak about them. In that day, they tried to force the issue of circumcision. (You are circumcised, btw, aren't you?) Paul told those Judaizers (your predecessors) that they should mutilate themselves.

Your problem is that you reduce the Sabbath merely to another Jewish law given by God to Moses in the Levitcal covenant along with feast days, circumcision and sacrificing. This is not true as the Sabbath existed at Creation. God, Himself sanctified the day for all mankind by resting and setting an example. He gave the Sabbath as a reminder that He is the creator of heaven and earth which sets Him apart from all the other 'gods'. The idea of worshipping God as creator is directly tied in with the Sabbath and is reiterated in Revelation 14.

The Sabbath was given as part of the moral law anyway, and not the ceremonial law. Logically you should be saying, "If your're going to keep the Sabbath, you might as well not kill and steal". You make no sense because you are trying to reduce a moral law written by the finger of God to a handwritten ordinance given by Moses to his people. It is not the same.

phatdawg said:
If you feel the legalistic need to keep a Sabbath, do so. But keep it to yourself. You don't do well by telling others that it is a sin to not keep the sabbath.

Actually, it is those that don't keep the Sabbath that Paul would have called legalists. The Sabbath proves that man can't save himself and needs time to go back to his Creator. It is God in us working for our redemption and to show us that He is our redeemer and Creator. This is the exact opposite of legalism. Christ came to show that the Pharisees were being legalists in the WAY they kept the Sabbath. Rather than abolish it, Christ magnified it to what it was supposed to be.
 
guibox said:
The Sabbath proves that man can't save himself and needs time to go back to his Creator.
It proves no such thing. It is merely a rest period. That is all. Man was not made for the Sabbath. Man was not put on this earth solely for the purpose of stopping whatever was he was doing on Sunday, and rest for 24 hours. The Sabbath was made for man. He needs the rest to keep him productive.
On top of all this... people like you who doggedly and dogmatically insist that the whole world is wrong because we don't go to church on Saturday (and what a terrible evil that is!) are the ones who are trying to force legalistic chains of bondage onto the necks of God's people.
I say Sunday is the Lord's Day.
You say Saturday is the Sabbath.
We are both right. The only difference is that I am not doggedly insisting that we keep a Sabbath, or by golly it is just evil.
Paul said something, and if it didn't pertain to this subject exclusively, it could be applied here just the same. He said; "One man keeps a day holy, and another keep no day. Let every man be persuaded in his own mind."

And what good does it do to be so dogmatic about Saturday if on every other day of the week you are just as evil as the guy next door.

I have some good friends who are Sabbath keepers. I respect their need to keep Saturday special. I treat them the same way I do about vegetarians. I can respect your special needs, and that is no big deal. But don't get pushy with me about your special needs. God is not a vegetarian, and He doesn't stop watching over Israel on Saturday.
 
phatdawg

If you feel the legalistic need to keep a Sabbath, do so. But keep it to yourself. You don't do well by telling others that it is a sin to not keep the sabbath.

In several instances Paul appeals to Jesus' teachings as backing for his own commands. We find three such major examples in I Corinthians alone: in chapter 7 (on marriage); in chapter 9 (on support of the ministry); and in chapter 11 (on the "Lord's Supper"). If Jesus had done away with the Sabbath, it is inconceivable that Paul would have been ignorant of the fact. Yet if Jesus had done away with the Sabbath and Paul knew of it, it is absolutely inconceivable that Paul would not have cited this as proof of his own alleged teachings against the Sabbath, if such he had had.
 
phatdawg said:
guibox said:
The Sabbath proves that man can't save himself and needs time to go back to his Creator.
It proves no such thing. It is merely a rest period. That is all. Man was not made for the Sabbath. Man was not put on this earth solely for the purpose of stopping whatever was he was doing on Sunday, and rest for 24 hours. The Sabbath was made for man. He needs the rest to keep him productive.

You obviously don't understand the meaning of the Sabbath, which is why you insist on not following it. The Sabbath is a time to rest in God and allow Him to work in us. It is a time to fellowship with God and recognize His saving grace in our hectic lives so we may be more like Him. THe Sabbath was indeed made for man. It's blessings and importance are outside man. Which is why man cannot regulate its existence to merely a Jewish institution or not valid in our lives anymore.

Its a matter of obedience, phatdawg, not about salvation. However when people so vehemently speak against it, it tells me more that they want to do their own thing rather than make sacrifices for God.

phatdawg said:
Paul said something, and if it didn't pertain to this subject exclusively, it could be applied here just the same. He said; "One man keeps a day holy, and another keep no day. Let every man be persuaded in his own mind."

And this is the problem. So many "Anti-Sabbatarians" are so vehement in observing the Sabbath, they try to justify it by taking verses out of context. This tells me that man's reasoning to ease the conscience and hear pleasing words is more important than really finding out what the Word of God has to say. Christ had pretty strong words for those people as well.

Below is a lengthy but important commentary on this verse (edited in part by myself for sake of clarity and importance). When you really look at the context of the verses in Romans 14, you'll see that it is not saying what Sunday keepers so desperately want it to say. I strongly encourage you to read it. It is from Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi's book, "The Sabbath Under Crossfire".

The Sabbath is not specifically mentioned in Paul’s Epistle to the Romans. However, in chapter 14, the Apostle distinguishes between two types of believers: the "strong" who believed "he may eat anything" and the "weak" who ate only "vegetables" and drank no wine (Rom 14:2, 21). The difference extended also to the observance of days, as indicated by Paul’s statement: "One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind" (Rom 14:5). 

Many Christians maintain that the weekly Sabbath comes within the scope of this distinction respecting days. They presume that the "weak" believers esteemed the Sabbath better than other days while "the strong" treated the Sabbath like the rest of the weekdays. ...Can the Sabbath be legitimately read into this passage? The answer is "No!" for at least three reasons. First, the conflict between the "weak" and the "strong" over diet and days cannot be traced back to the Mosaic law. The "weak man" who "eats only vegetables" (Rom 14:2), drinks no wine (Rom 14:21), and "esteems one day as better [apparently for fasting] than another" (Rom 14:5) can claim no support for such convictions from the Old Testament. Nowhere does the Mosaic law prescribe strict vegetarianism, total abstinence from fermented and unfermented wine,32 and a preference for fasting days. 

Similarly, the "strong man" who "believes he may eat anything" (Rom 14:2) and who "esteems all days alike" is not asserting his freedom from the Mosaic law but from ascetic beliefs apparently derived from sectarian movements. The whole discussion then is not about freedom to observe the law versus freedom from its observance, but concerns "unessential" scruples of conscience dictated not by divine precepts but by human conventions and superstitions. Since these differing convictions and practices did not undermine the essence of the Gospel, Paul advises mutual tolerance and respect in this matter.

That the Mosaic law is not at stake in Romans 14 is also indicated by the term "koinosâ€â€common" which is used in verse 14 to designate "unclean" food. This term is radically different from the word "akathartosâ€â€impure" used in Leviticus 11 (Septuagint) to designate unlawful foods. This suggests that the dispute was not over meat which was unlawful according to the Mosaic Law, but about meat which per se was lawful to eat but because of its association with idol worship (cf. 1 Cor 8:1-13) was regarded by some as "koinosâ€â€common," that is, to be avoided by Christians.

A second point to note is that Paul applies the basic principle "observe it in honor of the Lord" (Rom 14:6) only to the case of the person "who observes the day." He never says the opposite, namely, "the man who esteems all days alike, esteems them in honor of the Lord." In other words, with regard to diet, Paul teaches that one can honor the Lord both by eating and by abstaining (Rom 14:6); but with regard to days, he does not even concede that the person who regards all the days alike does so to the Lord. Thus, Paul hardly gives his endorsement to those who esteemed all days alike...Finally, if as generally presumed, it was the "weak" believer who observed the Sabbath, Paul would classify himself with the "weak" since he observed the Sabbath and other Jewish feasts (Acts 18:4, 19; 17:1, 10, 17; 20:16). Paul, however, views himself as "strong" ("we who are strong"â€â€Rom 15:1); thus, he could not have been thinking of Sabbathkeeping when he speaks of the preference over days.

Support for this conclusion is also provided by Paul’s advice: "Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind" (Rom 14:5). It is difficult to see how Paul could reduce the observance of holy days such as the Sabbath, Passover, and Pentecost to a matter of personal conviction without ever explaining the reason for it. This is especially surprising since he labors at great length to explain why circumcision was not binding upon the Gentiles...If the conflict in the Roman Church had been over the observance of holy days, the problem would have been even more manifest than the one over diet. After all, eating habits are a private matter, but Sabbath-keeping is a public, religious exercise of the whole community. Any disagreement on the latter would have been not only noticeable but also inflammatory.

The fact that Paul devotes 21 verses to the discussion of food and less than two verses (Rom 14:5-6) to that of days suggests that the latter was a very limited problem for the Roman Church, presumably because it had to do with private conviction on the merit or demerit of doing certain spiritual exercises such as fasting on some specific days.

In the Roman world there was a superstitious belief that certain days were more favorable than others for undertaking some specific projects. The Fathers frequently rebuked Christians for adopting such a superstitious mentality.34 Possibly, Paul alludes to this kind of problem, which at his time was still too small to deserve much attention. Since these practices did not undermine the essence of the Gospel, Paul advises mutual tolerance and respect on this matter. In the light of these considerations, we conclude that it is hardly possible that Sabbathkeeping is included in the "days" of Romans 14:5.
 
Lord's Day

If Sunday were already regarded as the "Lord’s day," Paul could have mentioned it.

But, though Paul was familiar with the adjective "Lord’s"  kuriakos (since he uses it in 1Cor.11:20 to designate the nature of the supper), he did not apply it to Sunday.

In the same epistle in fact, Paul refers to the day by the Jewish designation "first day of the week" -- 1 Cor. 16:2.


http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/ ... day/3.html
 
Is it possible that Christians, in their search for a day of worship distinct from the Sabbath, perceived in "the day of the Sun" a valid substitute -- since its rich symbology could effectively express Christian truth ?


The resurrection of Christ was already [ca. 140 AD] felt to be a valid motivation for assembling on the day of the Sun to offer worship to God.

But, as W. Rordorf admits, "in Justin’s First Apology (67, 7) the primary motivation for the observance of Sunday is to commemorate the first day of creation and only secondarily, in addition, the resurrection of Jesus."

The resurrection, presented by both Barnabas and Justin as a additional reason for keeping Sunday, will however gradually become the fundamental motivation for Sunday worship.

for bibliographical references, see the link below --

http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/ ... day/7.html
 
The European calendar depicts Monday as the first day of the week; Sunday is the seventh. Perhaps it was an attempt....

.....to stay true to the seventh day being holy to the LORD.

The only authority that could change "times" and "seasons" in Europe would be the universal church.

They counterfeited the Lord's true seventh day with a FALSE seventh day.

Isn't that OT, on the universal church's part, to want to stay true to the seventh day ?
 
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