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brakelite2

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If we as Christians are spiritual Jews, and are grafted into the tree of Israel, do you realise that makes all the children of Ishmael, the Arabs and all those of Islam in the Middle East, your brothers?
Does God love the children of Ishmael? Is God desirous that the gospel be shared with those belonging to the Muslim community? Have Muslims ever heard the true gospel, and do they know what a true Christian is? When the average Iraqi or Iranian or Pakistani catches a glimpse of the western world, what does he see?
Is it not true that he perceives the 'west' as Christian? Particularly America? Is he not constantly told that America is a Christian nation, a nation 'under God'? That America is founded on 'Christian' principles and that the government is in power by the sovereign grace of God? The typical Muslim therefore views America in much the same light as Americans would view Saudi Arabia. A religious church/ state union. He would read that 70% of Americans believe that the are going to heaven when they die. Therefore America and Christianity in the eyes of the average Muslim are synonymous.

What else does he see? He sees 'Christianity' in Christian rock music but sees no difference between the music in church and that in the street.
He sees 'Christianity' in the fashions and the baring of the flesh so prevalent now in western society. The devout Muslim sees little difference between what is worn in church these days and from what he sees being worn in soft porn sitcoms on TV. The tourists to his country need constant reminding of what he deems decent and pure in the area of dress. "Christians' need reminding of what modesty means? Yes, they do.
When a Muslim has the opportunity to view Christian TV services, what does he see? What does he hear? He sees the same fashions as one would expect to see in the street. He sees the same dancing and gyrating one would expect to see in a dance club. He hears the same music one would expect to hear at a rock concert . Thus he sees and hears nothing that would impress him as being respectful or reverent for the sanctuary which supposedly is the house of God.
Add to that the current debate over whether homosexuals ought to be ordained (the fact that it is even considered is bad enough) and the the Muslim is rightly sickened. And we think he ought to understand and accept our gospel?
The devout Muslim, who truly loves and worships God , despises that, and fears the encroachment of such a perverse (to him) religion into his life or country. He loves God and he loves his family. And although we may strongly disagree with many aspects of his faith, and have quite a different perspective of the nature and character of God, to all intents and purposes, we do worship the same God.
Sadly, he sees nothing in western society and the current practice of Christianity that would attract him. Like Ghandi, he likes our Jesus, but has little or no time for his professed followers.
He sees 'Christianty in the perversions and excesses of Hollywood. He sees 'Christianity' in the corruptions of corporate America. He sees 'Christianity' in the escalating crime and social disorder in the streets of western cities. And because the Islamic state works so hard to keep that perception of Christianity out of their nations, the average Muslim never sees the true Christian, and has no idea what a true Christian really is and what he believes.
His forbears experienced 'Christianity' at the hands of the papal crusaders in the early middle ages. He experienced 'Christianty' at the hands of exploitive British branch of the western church in the 19th and early 20th centuries. He is experiencing 'Christianity' today in the form of all out war today.
When, pray tell, will he ever experience the love of a true Christian? How will he do so when the current war is supported so strongly by the vocal and vociferously hateful Christian Zionists?
Who will represent to todays descendant of Ishmael the true Jesus if it isn't us??? And how can we do that, and present a gospel that will change the life, if we do not do as Jesus commanded us and love even those we perceive as our enemy?

There are very few people in the Bible named personally by God. Jesus, John the Baptist, Israel are 3 I can think of. Ishmael was another. His name means "God hears".Read through Genesis again. Take note of the number of times the angel of the Lord appeared to Hagar and the promises He made. That angel was the very same angel Who appeared to Abraham. The very same Angel Who appeared to Moses in the burning bush. God has blessed the children of Ishmael and desires to continue to do so today. The promises made to Abraham were fulfilled and kept in the branch of his family through Ishmael. In the beginning God's first covenant to Abraham included all the land from the Nile to the Euphrates. Later it only involved the land of Canaan. The descendants of Ishamael were given all the rest and it remains so today. God has blessed those people.
Remember that the greatest prophet of the OT was sent to the children of Ishmael in Nineveh and they repented. And one of the greatest characters of the OT was a descendant of Ishmael, Job. Shall we treat todays descendants with the same patronising bigotry and disrespect that his 3 friends did?
Not all of them are terrorists. We must stop generalising and consider them as much a candidate for the gospel as any one else. It begins by loving them. Unconditionally. Just as Jesus did when He appeared to Hagar, just as He did when He died for them, just as He does still.
 
For all intents and purpose, we do not worship the same God, not unless you believe that very same God that you and I worship would tell the supposed descendants of Ishmael to slaughter his "brother's" wherever he finds them (as the Islamic holy scripture indeed does). It is people like you who are causing more harm to the body of Christ than you realise, by commenting on things that you do not fully understand.

Who will represent to today's "descendants of Ishmael" the true Jesus if it isn't us? You ask; well, how about the millions of Christian converts who leave Islam, only to be kidnapped, beaten, raped, molested and murdered by their spiritual "brothers" for not renouncing their new-found faith in Christ. Are not those brave Christian Martyr's true enough witnesses to the Christian Gospel for you?

And what of this "all out war" with the west, that you speak of; Is this the reason why Islam appears to be so hostile and evil, is this why they despise us so passionately? If this is what you truly believe, then you have never read the 'holy' scripture that has inspired such hate in these potentially good men and women or have never considered that the 12,500 fatal Islamic terror attack's that have taken place since 9/11 are mainly against non-western countries and that the only justification these men,women and children of Islam need is for them to be non-Muslims. I am not painting everyone with the same brush, but the fact that Muslims in general never speak-out against these barbaric acts of evil, speaks volumes in regards to the Quran's power over MOST Muslims; a power that should be condemned and exposed for what it is, not justified.

You can look down or cast stones at western culture if you like but if you had ever lived in one of these Islamic states like i have, you would quickly come to realise that they are no more pious than the west; they are just better at hiding what they think would bring them shame or unfortunately death, you only need look at the huge and ever-growing number of AIDS victims in Saudi-Arabia or the huge child and adult prostitution trade in Pakistan and other eastern countries to realise this. Unlike the image that you are trying so hard to portray, when the average Pakistani (or in my case; Bengali) catches a glimpse of the west, more often than not, they like what they see, not least because it's another opportunity to do as Islam commands them to do and subdue. They may not be willing to give their daughter's hand in marriage to a Christian or white person but nevertheless they are are more than happy to give it to a western Muslim.

Those who are quick to defend or excuse the fruits of Islam; should spare a thought for their persecuted brother's and sister's in Christ; for these are people who's misery and suffering goes unnoticed by most in the west. When will you and everyone else, give them a voice?
 
brakelite2 said:
If we as Christians are spiritual Jews, and are grafted into the tree of Israel, do you realise that makes all the children of Ishmael, the Arabs and all those of Islam in the Middle East, your brothers?....

No because the Jews are the children of Isaac, not Ishmael.

However, we are all spiritual Semites: Those are the exact words of His Holiness Pope Pius XII. Funny that you should quote him almost verbatim without realizing it.
 
St Francis said:
brakelite2 said:
If we as Christians are spiritual Jews, and are grafted into the tree of Israel, do you realise that makes all the children of Ishmael, the Arabs and all those of Islam in the Middle East, your brothers?....

No because the Jews are the children of Isaac, not Ishmael.

However, we are all spiritual Semites: Those are the exact words of His Holiness Pope Pius XII. Funny that you should quote him almost verbatim without realizing it.
My point was that we are all the children of Abraham.
 
brakelite2 said:
St Francis said:
brakelite2 said:
If we as Christians are spiritual Jews, and are grafted into the tree of Israel, do you realise that makes all the children of Ishmael, the Arabs and all those of Islam in the Middle East, your brothers?....

No because the Jews are the children of Isaac, not Ishmael.

However, we are all spiritual Semites: Those are the exact words of His Holiness Pope Pius XII. Funny that you should quote him almost verbatim without realizing it.
My point was that we are all the children of Abraham.
Children of Abraham: Yes.
Children of Ishmael: No.
 
Do you care of what a person believes, or what a person is. Do not be wise in words - be wise in deeds. You cannot convert every one to your religion in the world. Indeed, it is very hard to convince a born Jewish or Muslim to convert to christianity. After-all they grew up on it. I'm sure G-d would understand this.
 
first off, brakelight2, since this topic is in the Christian discussion forum, i'm curious what it is you care to discuss. your opening post was constructed as a statement of fact, rather than opinion. as to the answer to your question, anyone who follows Jesus Christ's teachings, and teaches others about him would be a Christian. that's how the Bible defines it anyway (Acts 11:26). while i could challenge the multiple points in your opening post, i'm curious what it is you actually wish to discuss before i spend the effort.

Zechariah,
i'm sure God does understand that it matters not what religion a person is 'born', or even 'is'. all that matters to God (as far as salvation is concerned), is whether or not one has accepted Jesus Christ (God made flesh who died for our sins, and rose again on the 3rd day) exclusively as their personal Savior. beyond that, i really don't think God cares about what 'religion' (if any) we are, as long as we follow him in our lives. of course, the best way (IMO) to follow God is through a personal relationship with him rooted in the Bible, but that's a debate for another forum.
 
Zechariah said:
Do you care of what a person believes, or what a person is. Do not be wise in words - be wise in deeds. You cannot convert every one to your religion in the world. Indeed, it is very hard to convince a born Jewish or Muslim to convert to christianity. After-all they grew up on it. I'm sure G-d would understand this.

What is THAT supposed to mean? Christians are called to make disciples of all nations: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matt 28:19-20).
YES, I care what a person believes.
 
St Francis, you cannot force a person to change the way the think or make them accept Jesus. My meaning in my above comment was that people not born into christianity (usually those that do not have many christian ties in their area) will be raised by their religion if there be one. It definitely true, that teaching people about christianity may be okay, but doing it upon their un-willingness is wrong. A rapist forces his victim into sex, and if you force a belief down some one's throat, do you really know if they believe or if they're just scared to deny Jesus because they think you may kill them. Many many events throughout history of forcefully putting a religion into peoples' lives has been seen because of this. Just look at Spain in its peak of Catholic glory.
 
Zechariah said:
Do you care of what a person believes, or what a person is. Do not be wise in words - be wise in deeds. You cannot convert every one to your religion in the world. Indeed, it is very hard to convince a born Jewish or Muslim to convert to christianity. After-all they grew up on it. I'm sure G-d would understand this.

St Francis said:
What is THAT supposed to mean? Christians are called to make disciples of all nations: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matt 28:19-20).
YES, I care what a person believes.

Zechariah said:
St Francis, you cannot force a person to change the way the think or make them accept Jesus. My meaning in my above comment was that people not born into christianity (usually those that do not have many christian ties in their area) will be raised by their religion if there be one. It definitely true, that teaching people about christianity may be okay, but doing it upon their un-willingness is wrong. A rapist forces his victim into sex, and if you force a belief down some one's throat, do you really know if they believe or if they're just scared to deny Jesus because they think you may kill them. Many many events throughout history of forcefully putting a religion into peoples' lives has been seen because of this. Just look at Spain in its peak of Catholic glory.

FORCED conversions ?!?

St Francis has suggested nothing of the sort.

Teaching people about christianity MAY be okay?!?

This is a direct command given to us by Christ Himself and because you feel the need to bash Catholics, you compare it to rape?

Whens the last time anyone converted to Christianity out of fear for their lives? i think you're referring to the wrong faith.
 
Gabriel Ali said:
FORCED conversions ?!?

St Francis has suggested nothing of the sort..

Hey, when some people see a Catholic posting, they will contort the post anyway they need to to start an argument.
 
St Francis said:
[quote="Gabriel Ali":13xwr6uo]FORCED conversions ?!?

St Francis has suggested nothing of the sort..

Hey, when some people see a Catholic posting, they will contort the post anyway they need to to start an argument.[/quote:13xwr6uo]

And that's not helping anything.

ToS #3
Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. Do not start new topics or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is Catholic in nature.
 
brakelite2 said:
If we as Christians are spiritual Jews, and are grafted into the tree of Israel, do you realise that makes all the children of Ishmael, the Arabs and all those of Islam in the Middle East, your brothers?

No, because the children of Ishmael are not Arabs.

Are the Arabs the Descendants of Abraham?

Introduction

The Middle East will never have peace until the above question is honestly answered according to the historical facts. Myths and legends are fine as stories for children, but in the real world we must have facts and documentation, not legends. As the Encyclopedia Britannica puts it:

Arabian literature has its own version of prehistoric times, but it is entirely legendary.[1]

Another source, A Dictionary of Islam, calls the Arab version of Ishmael’s history a “great deal of romance.â€Â

The pure Arabs are those who claim to be descended from Joktan or Qahtan, whom the present Arabs regard as their principle founder... The ‘Arabu ‘l-Musta’ribah, the mixed Arabs, claim to be descended from Ishmael. They boast as much as the Jews of being reckoned the children of Abraham. This circumstance will account for the preference with which they uniformly regard this branch of their pedigree, and for the many romantic legends they have grafted upon it... The Arabs, in their version of Ishmael’s history, have mixed a great deal of romance with the narrative of Scripture.[2]

And the Encyclopedia of Islam is even more telling:

Mohammed was not informed about the family of Abraham.[3]

The Arab Claim

The Arab claim to the land of Israel rests entirely on three false assumptions:

* All Arabs are the descendants of Abraham through Ishmael.

* Ishmael and his descendants were included in the covenant God made with Abraham.

* Since the Abrahamic covenant included the land of Israel, the Arabs have a legitimate claim to it.

The Historical Record

According to the Torah, when Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees, he went West to what is now called Israel (Gen. 12 ff.). He became a dweller in tents in that land. It was in Israel that God made a covenant with him for the land in which he was living at that time. It was in Israel that he fathered Isaac, Ishmael, and many other sons and daughters. Isaac was the only son of Abraham chosen by God to be the heir of the covenant. Abraham took Isaac to Mt. Moriah to be offered up as a sacrifice to God.

The Torah is contradicted by the Qur’an at nearly every point. According to Sura 2:119-121, Abraham and Ishmael did not dwell in tents in Israel but in the city of Mecca in Arabia. Together they rebuilt the Ka’bah and placed the black stone in the wall. It was Abraham who started the tradition of an annual pilgrimage to Mecca, throwing stones at the devil, etc. Abraham took Ishmael (not Isaac) to nearby Mt. Mina to offer as a sacrifice to God.

Ishmael’s twelve sons were named Nebaioth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah.[4] They intermarried with the local population in North Arabia and produced several nomadic tribes know as the “Ishmaelites.â€Â

It was prophesied in the Torah that Ishmael and his family would “live to the East of all his brothers.â€Â[5] Genesis goes on to say,

And they settled from Havilah to Shur which is east of Egypt as one goes toward Assyria.[6]

This broad area is the desert section East of Egypt in Northern Arabia toward the kingdom of the Assyrians.

The Ishmaelites are mentioned as a distinct tribe in the Assyrian records. They later intermarried with and were absorbed by the Midianites and other local tribes. In Genesis 37:25-28; 39:1, the Ishmaelites are called the Midianites and in Judges 8:22-24, the Midianites are called the Ishmaelites.[7] The identification cannot be made any stronger and so the idea that the Arabs are descended from Ishmael is, in a word, false:

There is a prevalent notion that the Arabs, both of the south and north, are descended from Ishmael; and the passage in Gen. xvi.12, “he (Ishmael) shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren,†is often cited as if it were a prediction of that national independence which, upon the whole, the Arabs have maintained more than any other people. But this supposition is founded on a misconception of the original Hebrew, which runs literally, “he shall before the faces of all his brethren,†i.e., (according to the idiom above explained, in which “before the face†denotes the east), the habitation of his posterity shall be “to the east†of the settlements of Abraham’s other descendants... These prophecies found their accomplishment in the fact of the sons of Ishmael being located generally speaking to the east of the other descendants of Abraham, whether of Sara or of Keturah. But the idea of the southern Arabs being of the posterity of Ishmael is entirely without foundation, and seems to have originated in the tradition invented by Arab vanity that they, as well as the Jews, are of the seed of Abrahamâ€â€a vanity which, besides disfiguring and falsifying the whole history of the patriarch and his son Ishmael, has transferred the scene of it from Palestine to Mecca.â€Â[8]

Arabia was already populated by the descendants of Cush and Shem long before Abraham or Ishmael were born.[9] Their cities and temples have been well documented by archeologists. If all the Arab people descended from Ishmael as Mohammed claimed, where did all the original Arabs go? What happened to them? Who did Ishmael marry if the Arabs did not already exist? If Arabia was unpopulated, who built Mecca? Since he lived there, obviously it existed before he was born. The facts speak for themselves. The Arab people existed before, during, and after Ishmael started roaming the wilderness of North Arabia.

The descendants of Ishmael were scattered in Northern Arabia from the wilderness of Shur to the ancient city of Havilah. And as we have seen, they were absorbed by the local tribes such as the Midianites.[10] There is no historical or archeological evidence that Ishmael went south to Mecca and became the “Father†of the Arab race. Some modern Arab scholars admit that before Mohammed, Qahtan was said to be the “Father†of the Arab people, not Ishmael. [11]

The Abrahamic Covenant was given only to Isaac and to his descendants. Ishmael and the other sons of Abraham were explicitly excluded by God from having any part of the covenant made with Abraham.

And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before you!†Then God said, “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him. As for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at the set time next year.â€Â[12]

Therefore the descendants of Ishmael and the other sons of Abraham do not have any claim to the land of Israel because they are not included in the covenant God made with Abraham. Only the Jews have any claim to the land of Israel.

Islam’s Claim

Muslims like to claim that Islam give them the right to claim the land of Israel as their own. This claim rests upon two false assumptions:

1. All Arabs are the descendants of Ishmael;

2. Mohammed went to Jerusalem.

Three Historical Facts

The first assumption has already been proven false. The Arab people are not the descendants of Ishmael and hence they are not the heirs of the Patriarchs, the prophets, the Scriptures or the land of Israel.

The claim that Mohammed went to Jerusalem is false. According to the Qur’an and the Hadith, Mohammed had a dream in the middle of the night in which he traveled through the sky, visited seven heavens, met great people like Jesus, and visited the Jerusalem. Since this was only a dream, he was never actually in Jerusalem. The Mosque on the temple site in Jerusalem is a hoax built on the lie that Mohammed stood on the site.

Nowhere does the Qur’an state that Ishmael is the progenitor of the Arab race. Since it is not taught in the Qur’an, it cannot be a true Islamic belief.

Conclusion

The Arab people are not the children of Ishmael. Even if they were, they would still have no claim to Israel because Ishmael was excluded by God Himself from having any part in the covenant made with Abraham. Isaac was the only heir of the Abrahamic covenant. Thus the Arabs as a people have no claim to the land of Israel. The Muslims have no claim to the land of Israel either. Mohammed never went to Jerusalem except in a dream. The only people with a spiritual and biblical claim to the land of Israel are the descendants of Isaac, the Jews.

http://islamcomicbook.com/resources/ishmael.htm
 
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