Bible Study Women in the church

[3rddayuprising]

Loved your testimony, Bonnie. Clear, simple and wonderful Truth.

I think it has been Scripturally established and sufficiently clarified that the roles of women in the position of 5-fold ministry is forbidden. Thank God for the pattern set forth in the book of Acts which further solidifies the foundations and guidelines for true minstry.

Nowhere in these Scriptures do we see the Spirit "separating unto God" women ministers "for the work whereunto I have called them" in a leadership capacity. Nowhere do we see in Scripture...when giving requirments for Church leadership, It saying, "you must be the wife of one husband".

Seems that the biggest issue is that of a prophet's ministry. I don't know what it is about the prophets ministry that attracts so much attention, as if it was some kind of a glorious public "out in the open" popularity thing. (It's like individuals DESIRING to be in offices of Major, President or Prime minister...something definitely wrong there...usually $$$$ motives.)

But, on the contrary, the office of Prophet carries with it the most serious of responsibilities, the severest of persecution and rejection, and the most obscure of recognition. While being called to establish and maintain foundations, boundaries and Biblical correction in the Church...they are most often hated and scorned for their God-given authority alone.

Not even are present day TRUE prophets called, ordained and raised up within manmade religious systems, but they are apprehended, raised up and prepared by God outside every "camp". This, in itself, is recognized and cherished by a very small remnant which God is calling out in these last days.

Most often "denominationally ordained prophets" will speak smooth things and flateries to further establish that specific system and secure the people from leaving. But contrary to this, God ordained prophets are given a "prohetic anointing" and "authoritative oversight" over the Body of Christ as a whole...with acute discernment. and a Spirit led sense of righteous judgement.

Nowadays, most Churches have their own set of 5-fold ministry ministers, making that church complete and "sovereign" unto itself. Anyone coming in from "the outside", not complimenting their "vision" and programs...are soon rejected and scorned.

God is indeed raising up "prophetic" men and women in this hour. Men who are anointed with prophetic insight, with an authoritative Revelation of the Scriptures. Women are also gifted with prophetic insight in their own right and place...Scripturally. But beware the false! Men and women. You'll find them in majority.

Furhtermore, prophetic callings are not something we "desire" or "choose", but which God foreordains and prepares one to be. Through much hard experience and dealings and seasoning are present day prophets raised up to "restore" a wayward bride and Truths lost in the confusion of Babylon. And He's doing it.

It also takes true prophetic insight to recognize these things. Praise God.

 

[handy]

Great posts, all! I really do appreciate everyone taking the time to respond to this subject. It has been such a divisive one within the church for several decades now, but one that recieves little in-depth examination. Most of the time, I have seen that those who study the subject objectively and in-depth, wind up agreeing with the idea that women should take on more authoritative roles. Which, if the Bible truly teaches us that all women for all time are to be subject for men, is opposite of what should be happening. But, so often, those who hold to the idea that women are to be always under men, just point to two texts and say, "That's it. Ask anymore and you're out of line." Which isn't a biblical attitude at all, for we all should be willing to examine the Scriptures together, confident that God will make His truth known.

Please don't make the mistake of thinking that the only possible way someone could come to the conclusion that women can and should take on higher offices in the church is that they don't value the inerrency of Scriptures or that they study only to seek to justify what they know to be disobedience. This really isn't the case. I know some very dedicated Christians, who hold God's truths to be eternal and alway authoritative, who have sincerely and diligently studied this issue and have come to the conclusion that the texts in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy were dealing with specific issues, specific to the churches at Corinth and Ephesus, but that God has called upon women more than once to take on authoritative roles.

And, as for me, I am convinced in my own heart that God's word holds the truth that I seek and that as I prayerfully study this issue, He will make His will known.

 

[3rddayuprising]

Great posts, all! I really do appreciate everyone taking the time to respond to this subject. It has been such a divisive one within the church for several decades now, but one that recieves little in-depth examination. Most of the time, I have seen that those who study the subject objectively and in-depth, wind up agreeing with the idea that women should take on more authoritative roles. Which, if the Bible truly teaches us that all women for all time are to be subject for men, is opposite of what should be happening. But, so often, those who hold to the idea that women are to be always under men, just point to two texts and say, "That's it. Ask anymore and you're out of line." Which isn't a biblical attitude at all, for we all should be willing to examine the Scriptures together, confident that God will make His truth known.

Please don't make the mistake of thinking that the only possible way someone could come to the conclusion that women can and should take on higher offices in the church is that they don't value the inerrency of Scriptures or that they study only to seek to justify what they know to be disobedience. This really isn't the case. I know some very dedicated Christians, who hold God's truths to be eternal and alway authoritative, who have sincerely and diligently studied this issue and have come to the conclusion that the texts in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy were dealing with specific issues, specific to the churches at Corinth and Ephesus, but that God has called upon women more than once to take on authoritative roles.

And, as for me, I am convinced in my own heart that God's word holds the truth that I seek and that as I prayerfully study this issue, He will make His will known.

But, of course, NEVER in the role of the 5-fold ministry or where they would have to assume and usurp authority over the man. Paul's written accounts were according to God's foundations and bounderies to ALL the Churches. "as in all the churches" is the term used in 1 Cor. 14.

Paul takes these instructions and principles back to Adam and Eve and to the old Testament foundations. "Women rule over you and children are your oppressors; and they that lead you astray cause ye to error" is what God revealed concerning backslidden and wayward Israel.

 

[handy]

3day, could you provide the reference for the text you shared regarding women ruling and children being oppressors.

Keep in mind that it's precicely because Paul takes the principle back to Adam and Eve and to Old Testament foundations that cause some to pause and wonder. For it is in the Old Testament that we find Deborah judging Israel and Huldah being sought out by Josiah the King via the priest.

2 Kings 22:13-15 "Go inquire of the Lord for me and the people and all Judah concerning the words of this book (which was the book of the law, found in the house of the Lord) that has been found, for great is the wrath of the Lord that burns against us, because our fathers have not listened to the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us.

So Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Achbor, Shaphan, and Asaiah went to Huldah, the prophetess, the wife of Shallum....And she said to them, "Thus says the Lord God of Israel, 'Tell the man who sent you to me, thus says the Lord...'"

 

[3rddayuprising]

Once again, it has been sufficiently shown in Scripture and Christian principle that women are never called to positions of leadership in the Church leadership structure. NEVER in the role of the 5-fold ministry or where they would have to assume and usurp authority over the man.

Paul's written accounts were according to God's foundations and boundaries to ALL the Churches. "as in all the churches" is the term used in 1 Cor. 14:33. The "commandments of the Lord" (Verse 37) as issued by Paul are obviously to ALL the Churches.

Paul takes these instructions and principles back to Adam and Eve and to the old Testament foundations. "Women rule over you and children are your oppressors; and they that lead you astray cause ye to error" is what God revealed concerning backslidden and wayward Israel. 

Isaiah 3:12 "As for My people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O My people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

When Israel was "judged" and women temporarily assumed roles as "prophetesses", this is when Israel was out of God's ordained order, and no God-ordained prophet was being properly honoured by Israel. No woman was to ever hold the position of Prophet, Priest or King in God's leadership structure over Israel. THIS is what Paul referred to in Corin..."as also saith the law".

Still to this day, God's ways do not change, as Paul verifies in Corinthians and Timothy. And ALL throughout New Testament Scripture the requirements for Church leadership are never given for women, but only men.

It is one thing to be called and gifted to be a "prophetess". This is no more than being called a "handmaiden of the Lord" who prophesies. Which is still an awesome calling.
But the sacred, authoritative OFFICE of Prophet, as in the 5-fold ministry of Church leadership...women are not to touch this place.

You may find a man-ruled Church system or denomination that ordains such...but never will God sanction such disorder. Many women HAVE found themselves church affiliations who cater to these UN-Scriptural ambitions, but they will answer to God for this self-will and iniquity.

As it has been touched upon in earlier posts...God requires that men and women maintain their God-given respective character traits...masculinity and femininity. As Paul bases much of his discourse on. "The quietness, submissiveness and obedience of the woman", and the providing, protecting and leadership nature of the man.

So often, women who assume leadership roles...adopt a masculinity and aggressiveness about them, which is an abomination to God. They develop a "hardness" which is unbecoming to the feminine nature God created them to have. These alterings of God-ordained character can lead to even worse perversions, such as lesbianism and homosexuality. Which is becoming prevalent in many denominational systems.

Like I said before, and as it has proven out...it can be proven clearly with Scripture and verified with testimony from God's obedient daughters, and yet people very often will still aggressively pursue their original ambitions. God says, "let them be, I will recompense".

 

[Jules C]

So often, women who assume leadership roles...adopt a masculinity and aggressiveness about them, which is an abomination to God. They develop a "hardness" which is unbecoming to the feminine nature God created them to have.

Which is exactly the sort of attitude that can turn people away from the church, (including, at times, me!)

And, actually, I didn't intend a discussion about homosexuality. It is a subject which seems to obsess many Christians.

 

[Rick W]

The Biblical Position on Women's Roles

John Macarthur did a wonderful study about women on the radio almost a year ago. It was the best sermon I'd heard on the subject. Unfortunately I can no longer find it in the mp3 format.

For more concerning women here is a list of his sermons in alphabetical order. Scroll down to "Women". The above link is taken from this list. Women [02]
http://www.biblebb.com/mac-h-z.htm

 

[destiny]

It has mostly been men who have messed up the church as a whole. There is a male false teacher- prophet- apostle- pastor.. on just about every corner these days, destroying innocent lambs. The antichrist himself will be MALE.
If you want submission, then become a lowly servant and love as Jesus loved His church; the greatest must serve the least. It's a 2 way street.

PS.. Potluck, no offense intended to you, but John Macarther is a hard core calvinist who doesn't even believe gifts or miracles are for today. He just isn't qualified to be teaching his pet doctrine of womans roles, IMO. He has a list of cans and cannots for woman that is completely void of the Holy Spirit, and he's got God on a list of cans and cannot's also, so I guess we are in good company.

Spirit and truth (working together) is crucial in order to avoid legalism or liberalism.

 

[3rddayuprising]

It has mostly been men who have messed up the church as a whole. There is a male false teacher- prophet- apostle- pastor.. on just about every corner these days, destroying innocent lambs. The antichrist himself will be MALE.
If you want submission, then become a lowly servant and love as Jesus loved His church; the greatest must serve the least. It's a 2 way street.

PS.. Potluck, no offense intended to you, but John Macarther is a hard core calvinist who doesn't even believe gifts or miracles are for today. He just isn't qualified to be teaching his pet doctrine of womans roles, IMO. He has a list of cans and cannots for woman that is completely void of the Holy Spirit, and he's got God on a list of cans and cannot's also, so I guess we are in good company.

Spirit and truth (working together) is crucial in order to avoid legalism or liberalism.

No matter what about the "false" and the abusers of Truth, the Truth is still the Truth...about women and everyone else...as taught in the Scriptures by Paul, and all the other writers.

Don't worry, God has His TRUE ministry on the scene. We don't need to revamp and pervert the Word...trying to make up for the people who have gone astray.

Don't worry about Calvin or anyone else. Just seek God for Revelation from His Word. He is calling a people OUT for His name. Those who will submit to His divine order...as a woman to her husband.

 

[destiny]

It has mostly been men who have messed up the church as a whole. There is a male false teacher- prophet- apostle- pastor.. on just about every corner these days, destroying innocent lambs. The antichrist himself will be MALE.
If you want submission, then become a lowly servant and love as Jesus loved His church; the greatest must serve the least. It's a 2 way street.

PS.. Potluck, no offense intended to you, but John Macarther is a hard core calvinist who doesn't even believe gifts or miracles are for today. He just isn't qualified to be teaching his pet doctrine of womans roles, IMO. He has a list of cans and cannots for woman that is completely void of the Holy Spirit, and he's got God on a list of cans and cannot's also, so I guess we are in good company.

Spirit and truth (working together) is crucial in order to avoid legalism or liberalism.

No matter what about the "false" and the abusers of Truth, the Truth is still the Truth...about women and everyone else...as taught in the Scriptures by Paul, and all the other writers.

Don't worry, God has is TRUE ministry on the scene. We don't need to revamp and pervert the Word...trying to make up for the people who have gone astray.

Don't worry about Calvin or anyone else. Just seek God for Revelation from His Word. He is calling a people OUT for His name. Those who will submit to His divine order...as a woman to her husband.

And too, you just be concerned about your role as servant, and loving as Jesus loved His church and gave Himself up for it. You are commanded to do this whether you are submitted to or not.
If people are obeying God and walking by the Spirit, the church will usually fall in order naturally.

 

[destiny]

Secondly: nothing will "fall into place" in God's Church "naturally", but rather...SUPER-naturally. Many have a "form of godliness, but deny the Power thereof" to be truly changed and transformed to line up with divine order.

I said, "If people are obeying God and walking by the Spirit"... this is the key. I made that pretty clear.

 

[3rddayuprising]

Secondly: nothing will "fall into place" in God's Church "naturally", but rather...SUPER-naturally. Many have a "form of godliness, but deny the Power thereof" to be truly changed and transformed to line up with divine order.

I said, "If people are obeying God and walking by the Spirit"... this is the key. I made that pretty clear.

Amen. Yes, as a result of "walking in the Spirit" and "obeying God" His divine order will be maintained according to the original foundations, cornerstones and boundaries as set forth by the apostles and prophets, Paul being chief foundation layer. 1 Cor.3:10

Sounds like we're in agreement. I thought I sensed contention from your replies. Forgive me if I was wrong.

 

[handy]

I haven't been ignoring this thread. I've taken time to read over things and search things out.

I'd like to revisit the issue of prophet yet again. It's been pointed out that in the old testament there were times when folks prophesied, and yet were not prophets. The examples given were David and Saul. This is true that at times the Spirit of the Lord would 'come upon' someone, and they would give prophetic utterances, and yet not be prophets. This was true of both men and women. However, Deborah and Huldah were prophets of God, this was the role they held. We need to keep in mind that in the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit did not indwell believers as He does now since Pentecost. We all now have the indwelling of the Spirit, so the Spirit does not 'come upon' us now as He did those who lived prior to Pentecost. However, He does bestow upon those who He calls to service with the gifts and talents necessary to fulfil the role He calls one to. This is why I think it's important to establish why we have separated the role of prophet in the church from those gifted with prophecy.

It was also mentioned that Israel only had women prophets when no male prophet was being honored by Israel. Huldah was prophet at the same time as Josiah was king and Zephaniah and Jeremiah were prophet. Due to the prophesies of specifically Huldah and Zephaniah, Josiah worked to bring the kingdom back to God. God used these three prophets to work out both a plan of grace and the plan of wrath. When Josiah sought out Huldah, she prophesied that Judah would receive a measure of grace and the wrath would be held off as long as Josiah was king, because Josiah sought to honor God. Jeremiah and Zephaniah prophesied that the coming day of judgment was at hand. It was a very dark period of time to be sure, but Josiah's willingness to seek out God (by going to a woman) God brought revival to the nations. Josiah worked to change Judah back to a God-fearing nation, cleansing the temple, destroying the "high-places" where the people worshiped false gods and reinstituting Passover. So, although it is true that Huldah prophesied during a dark time in Judah, she also was God's voice of grace, not His voice of judgment.

As for Deborah, she too was both prophet and judge at a dark time for Israel. Judges 4:1 states that the sons of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord and Sisera was an insturment of His wrath. However, it was also Deborah that the Lord chose to lead Israel in defeating Sisera. I've often heard it said the Deborah was prophet and judge only because no man stepped up to take on the role. However, no where does it state this in the Scriptures. Barak had refused to go against Sisera unless Deborah went with him and she said that the Lord would give the honor of taking Sisera to a woman. It was perhaps because of Barak's unwillingness that the Lord gave Sisera to Jael, but Deborah was judging before this took place. And, nowhere does it specifically state that it was due to Barak's unwillingness that Jael was to kill Sisera. Deborah simply said that God was going to give the honor to a woman. At any rate, Deborah's time of judging Israel came at a dark time, but it was also a time of restoration. After the defeat of Sisera, Israel enjoyed peace for 40 years. It was Deborah that the Lord used to bring Israel back to a place of peace and properity.

This shows me that God used the two women, Huldah and Deborah to bring revival to the nation, rather than judgment.

And, it can also be said that we also are living in a very dark time. There are many ways in which the church of today can be compared with Judah of Josiah's day. False prophets and false teachers do abound. So, perhaps it is because of this that women again are being called upon to speak out for God, that God is raising up women to declare His truths yet again.

Sure there are many women prophets and preachers today that are false, but there are also those who do declare God's word to us. If we ignore them, are we ignoring one's who God Himself has called? What would have been the results if Barak had refused to follow Deborah's instructions because she was a woman? Or Josiah, Huldah's?

The two main reason's that I can see that folks insist that 1 Timothy and 1 Corithinians teach that women are never to speak authoritatively in the church is because of the supposed 'difference' between those who 'prophesied' and the role of prophet, and because it was God's forever plan that women were never to lead men. Well, we see that God has indeed called women to act as leaders over men, and I've yet to see anyone, anyone at all establish a biblical basis for separating those who prophesied in the New Testament from those who held the role of prophet. This just seems to be one of those assumptions that is being repeated over and over, with no biblical basis for doing so.

Which I know brings us back full circle. I doubt if this is going to be the arena in which this particular debate would will be solved. It was a profitable study for me, even though it really didn't resolve any of my questions. I do wish that someone could point to a solid biblical basis for separating those who held the gift of prophesy from those who held the role of prophet in the New Testament. That would settle the matter for me. As it is, I'm going to bow out of the study now, basically because everytime I read over this thread, it has taken me several hours to follow up and study all that everyone has contributed. I simply am not going to have the time for this for the next few weeks.

 

[destiny]

I agree with you, Handy. It is very clear in scripture that God used woman as prophets throughtout scripture. We also see Phoebe is used as a "servant", and servants were regarded as leaders...
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well (Rom. 16:1-2).


I looked over 3rddayuprising's site and he believes in the serpant seed doctrine. This is the belief that Eve had sex with the serpant and produced the linage of satan. I have never known anyone who believed this false doctrine who didn't hold contempt or low very low regard for woman. Hopefully I'm wrong and will refrain from using the broad brush, but I see this as the case most of the time wherever that heretical doctrine is believed.

 

[handy]

:smt009 Wow. 'nuff said.

 

[handy]

I'm so glad we have the example of Christ giving His blessing to Mary to sit at His feet with the other disciples rather than have her get up and help Martha in the kitchen, because I've spent so much time on this study this morning, I haven't even finished the dishes yet!

But, I've done a study on the word 'servant' (diakonos), as in "Pheobe a servant of the church as Cenchera".

Here is the same word in other texts:

1 Corinthians 3:5

2 Cornithians 3:6

Ephesians 6:21

There are more, but it is interesting to see who else was considered a 'servant' of the church.

 

[duval]

What ever in the world is a "prophetic"??

 

[Caroline H]

What is a prophet except someone with God given understanding to rebuke sin and lead people back to a right relationship with God? Sometimes this involved forseeing the future, but it was for the sole purpose of warning against coming judgement. Are not all Christians supposed to admonish each other when we see each other living in sin, to call sin what it is and not sugar coat it? We don't need to have a title of "prophet" to do that. But the OP was refering to the role of women in the church, not wheather or not women can be prophets and wheather or not people who prophecied had positions of authority. I will say that when the NT refers to pastors and preachers (who did have authority over some) none of them were ever women. Prophets are not necessarily preachers, and they definitely aren't pastors. I don't think that an assumption condoning women pastors or church leaders can be made based upon the fact that there were women prophets.

 

[duval]

But 3rdday says he is a "prophetic". What is that??

 

[handy]

Caroline, the issue of women prophets always arises when one studies the issue of women in authoritative positions in the church for this reason: If women were prophets in the early church, and prophet was an authoritative role, then Paul's words to Timothy and to the church at Cornith seem to fall more into the catagory of addressing issues specific to those churches at that time, rather than for all women to follow for all time.

(Keep in mind that this isn't necessarily my own opinion on this matter, it's just what is always brought up in a 'pro-woman' discussion on this issue.)

As for pastors and preachers, who were all the pastors and preachers of the NT church. Were all of them named? There were many who were named in Paul's various letters and in Acts, but often their titles weren't given, "servant" seeming to be the favored title, but servant (diakonos) was a title shared by both women and men.