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    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Ye shall know the truth... absolute proof that the Bible is the word of God !

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"Never a Man Spake Like this Man.."

"Come see a Man, which told me all things that_ever I_did: Is not this the Christ ? "


This thread is open to any and all glorious thoughts concerning the living and powerful word of God and its limitless testimony to Jesus of Nazareth, the Lord Jesus Christ.. King of kings and LORD of lords, that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.

I'd like to start by sharing that the Bible is absolutely and undeniably the word of God simply because of its continuous theme from beginning to end, while foretelling the end from the beginning in limitless and living detail.. story after story.. all telling the same story again and again.. for in the volume of the book it is written of Me..

While there may be endless arguments concerning the authenticity of its pages, and the Holy Bible scrutinized in every way imaginable from men.. its story is incorruptible simply because it's the simple story which tells the story again and again.. all to His infinite and eternal glory.

All thoughts and criticism welcome !
 
The Word of God is first and foremost Spirit. Therefore I agree that the scriptures testify to this Word for it is inspired by the Holy Spirit which testifies to the Word. I find however that there are those who equate the letter to the Spirit. The Letter is only a shadow of the substance of the Word, which as I said is Spirit.
 
The Word of God is first and foremost Spirit. Therefore I agree that the scriptures testify to this Word for it is inspired by the Holy Spirit which testifies to the Word. I find however that there are those who equate the letter to the Spirit. The Letter is only a shadow of the substance of the Word, which as I said is Spirit.

Even the Law is Holy, just and good, because it's all a picture of the one and only one who ever fulfilled its requirements..
 
Even the Law is Holy, just and good, because it's all a picture of the one and only one who ever fulfilled its requirements..
Christ surpassed the requirments of the law and Paul called the law the beggarly elements. I say this so as to point out that the righteousness of God written on ones heart is more desired than the reading about it. I do however love the reproof for assurances sake.
 
Christ surpassed the requirments of the law and Paul called the law the beggarly elements. I say this so as to point out that the righteousness of God written on ones heart is more desired than the reading about it. I do however love the reproof for assurances sake.

Paul said that the Law is holy and just and good.. and not one man in Adam has been able to live by it.. even though the Lord told the Lawyer in Luke 10 that if he observed it, that he would live..
 
Paul said that the Law is holy and just and good.. and not one man in Adam has been able to live by it.. even though the Lord told the Lawyer in Luke 10 that if he observed it, that he would live..

The Psalms say otherwise. Start with Psalm 119, if you think otherwise.

I think you misunderstand the point of Romans 3...

Regards
 
The Psalms say otherwise. Start with Psalm 119, if you think otherwise.

I think you misunderstand the point of Romans 3...

Regards

Well perhaps you can tell us who lived according to the Law 'perfectly' besides the Lord Jesus Christ..?

And feel free to explain what the misunderstanding is in Romans 3..
 
Well perhaps you can tell us who lived according to the Law 'perfectly' besides the Lord Jesus Christ..?

And feel free to explain what the misunderstanding is in Romans 3..

It is only moderns who think one must keep the law "perfectly" to be considered righteous. And don't bother with the one verse in James, as it is a different context, written against those trying to EARN salvation by their deeds. No one can earn salvation. However, with a different mindset behind our actions, we can be righteous in God's eyes by following the Law, even if imperfectly. As God's children, we are not expected to be perfect.

Do you expect perfection from your children before you love and accept them?

I think if you actually sat down and read Psalm 119, you would see that the writer has a different view on whether someone can be righteous or not...

As to Romans 3, Paul is not talking about a faith v works battle, since Romans 2 points out that some who DO "work" are saved. Some men have a Law written in their hearts and they OBEY IT... The point is that Jews, in their pride, are no better off than the Gentiles by merely HAVING the Law! ALL need Christ and His act of faith, a gift of grace. Jew or Gentile. Jews following their law proudly does not yield righteousness, and Paul's quotations are, in context, written as a litany of "see, I told you, the Jews are no better" by citing David. In OT context, the "evil men" are Jews pursuing David, wicked men who THINK they are doing God's will, but have no concern for God's Law in their hearts. If you read the Psalms that Paul quotes in Romans 3, you will find that David ALSO notes righteous men exist. Paul is certainly aware of the context of these passages.

The point, then, is NOT that "all men are evil". Clearly, the Psalms do not say that. The point is that all men are in need of God's gift of grace. Even Jews. It is not a matter of 'faith vs. works'.

Regards
 
It is only moderns who think one must keep the law "perfectly" to be considered righteous. And don't bother with the one verse in James, as it is a different context, written against those trying to EARN salvation by their deeds. No one can earn salvation. However, with a different mindset behind our actions, we can be righteous in God's eyes by following the Law, even if imperfectly. As God's children, we are not expected to be perfect.

Well thanks for your opinion on the matter, but I was just asking for one name.. one person in all the scriptures where it teaches that they were justified before God by keeping the Law..

Can you give us one person in the scriptures, this is all I'm asking for..

Do you expect perfection from your children before you love and accept them?

No, but then again, I'm not God either.. and I know that He is perfect and that any man can be justified by faith and trust in HIM.. not by keeping the Law..

I think if you actually sat down and read Psalm 119, you would see that the writer has a different view on whether someone can be righteous or not...

I've read the Psalm many times and I see no conflict at all between the righteousness which is by faith as compared to the righteousness which is obtained by keeping the deeds of the Law..

As to Romans 3, Paul is not talking about a faith v works battle, since Romans 2 points out that some who DO "work" are saved. Some men have a Law written in their hearts and they OBEY IT... The point is that Jews, in their pride, are no better off than the Gentiles by merely HAVING the Law! ALL need Christ and His act of faith, a gift of grace. Jew or Gentile. Jews following their law proudly does not yield righteousness, and Paul's quotations are, in context, written as a litany of "see, I told you, the Jews are no better" by citing David. In OT context, the "evil men" are Jews pursuing David, wicked men who THINK they are doing God's will, but have no concern for God's Law in their hearts. If you read the Psalms that Paul quotes in Romans 3, you will find that David ALSO notes righteous men exist. Paul is certainly aware of the context of these passages.

And Paul knew that he didn't have his own righteousness, but the righteousness of God which is by faith.

The point, then, is NOT that "all men are evil". Clearly, the Psalms do not say that. The point is that all men are in need of God's gift of grace. Even Jews. It is not a matter of 'faith vs. works'.

Then why are all men in Adam (in the flesh) dying..? Why does the bible teach that there are none good but one, or that there are none righteous, no not even one..?

Is God's word wrong ?
 
However, with a different mindset behind our actions, we can be righteous in God's eyes by following the Law, even if imperfectly. As God's children, we are not expected to be perfect.
Following the law imperfectly is the reason we need Jesus. Just one sin (transgressionof the law) will send us to hell. Gal 3:10:

"For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.†(NIV)

Everything means everything. No one can be righteous by following the law. The purpose of the law is stated in Gal 3:24 and says the law leads us to Christ. The law shows us that we are not good and convinces us that Romans 3:10 is the truth about us.

At least this is my understanding.


The point is that all men are in need of God's gift of grace.
Why? If you think we can be righteous under the law then why do we need grace?
 
Well thanks for your opinion on the matter, but I was just asking for one name.. one person in all the scriptures where it teaches that they were justified before God by keeping the Law..

I thought this was about whether someone could keep the Law, or where supposed to keep the entire law flawlessly. You think it needs to be done perfectly to be righteous. There is no OT Scriptures that say one must keep the Law perfectly. Keeping the Law is a sign of a righteous person, clearly, as in Psalm 119. That is why I asked you to read it. Did you do your homework? ;)

A person was righteous when they lived by faith, which entails following the Torah, the gift from God to His People. You cannot separate the two, for the righteous Jew. I am not sure where you get this idea that one must follow the Law perfectly, sinlessly, to be justified or righteous, as measured by Scriptures, since the very Law ITSELF takes this into account with sin offerings and Yom Kippur, for example...

Can you give us one person in the scriptures, this is all I'm asking for..

Are you asking me "who is righteous"? The Psalms presume such people exist, without naming them personally. But if you want one, I'll give you two. Joseph, the foster father of Jesus, and Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist...

No, but then again, I'm not God either.. and I know that He is perfect and that any man can be justified by faith and trust in HIM.. not by keeping the Law..

The issue is not whether keeping the law perfectly can make one righteous, since that NEVER was an issue in the OT, but whether Gentiles must become Jews SO AS to keep the Law. THAT is the gist of Romans 3. Romans makes it clear that boasting of the Torah as a gift (NOT in totally keeping it) given only to the Jews was a false sense of pride - it is faith in Christ that saves, not becoming a Jew and following the Torah (and this does NOT presume perfect Law keeping...). Paul gives an example of what "being a Jew" can entail. ;) Acts 15 addresses this formally.

We Gentiles don't need to become Jews to be justified - since the Torah does not justify, faith in Christ does. THAT is the point of Romans 3-4, Eph 2, and Galatians 2-3.

I've read the Psalm many times and I see no conflict at all between the righteousness which is by faith as compared to the righteousness which is obtained by keeping the deeds of the Law..

Again, there is a slight misunderstanding here. The OT righteous are righteous because they keep the Torah, WHICH IS "righteousness by faith". In other words, the Pauline idea of righteousness by faith is nothing new, except in naming Jesus as the Savior. The Jews who were righteous ALSO were righteous because of their faith and trust in God. Their response was to obey the Torah. NOT because they thought they were earning anything, but because that was the response to God's love in giving them the Law in the first place.

And Paul knew that he didn't have his own righteousness, but the righteousness of God which is by faith.

We are in agreement that righteousness is not won by our own deeds. That is nothing new, the OT righteous felt the same way. But it misses the point of Romans. We don't need to become Jews...

Then why are all men in Adam (in the flesh) dying..? Why does the bible teach that there are none good but one, or that there are none righteous, no not even one..?

The bible teaches that possessing the Torah does not mean one is just or righteous. The evidence is found in Romans 3, when he cites those Psalms that you supposedly read so many times...

Is God's Word wrong? Of course not, just the interpretation of It.

Regards
 
I thought this was about whether someone could keep the Law, or where supposed to keep the entire law flawlessly. You think it needs to be done perfectly to be righteous. There is no OT Scriptures that say one must keep the Law perfectly. Keeping the Law is a sign of a righteous person, clearly, as in Psalm 119. That is why I asked you to read it. Did you do your homework? ;)

A person was righteous when they lived by faith, which entails following the Torah, the gift from God to His People. You cannot separate the two, for the righteous Jew. I am not sure where you get this idea that one must follow the Law perfectly, sinlessly, to be justified or righteous, as measured by Scriptures, since the very Law ITSELF takes this into account with sin offerings and Yom Kippur, for example...



Are you asking me "who is righteous"? The Psalms presume such people exist, without naming them personally. But if you want one, I'll give you two. Joseph, the foster father of Jesus, and Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist...



The issue is not whether keeping the law perfectly can make one righteous, since that NEVER was an issue in the OT, but whether Gentiles must become Jews SO AS to keep the Law. THAT is the gist of Romans 3. Romans makes it clear that boasting of the Torah as a gift (NOT in totally keeping it) given only to the Jews was a false sense of pride - it is faith in Christ that saves, not becoming a Jew and following the Torah (and this does NOT presume perfect Law keeping...). Paul gives an example of what "being a Jew" can entail. ;) Acts 15 addresses this formally.

We Gentiles don't need to become Jews to be justified - since the Torah does not justify, faith in Christ does. THAT is the point of Romans 3-4, Eph 2, and Galatians 2-3.



Again, there is a slight misunderstanding here. The OT righteous are righteous because they keep the Torah, WHICH IS "righteousness by faith". In other words, the Pauline idea of righteousness by faith is nothing new, except in naming Jesus as the Savior. The Jews who were righteous ALSO were righteous because of their faith and trust in God. Their response was to obey the Torah. NOT because they thought they were earning anything, but because that was the response to God's love in giving them the Law in the first place.



We are in agreement that righteousness is not won by our own deeds. That is nothing new, the OT righteous felt the same way. But it misses the point of Romans. We don't need to become Jews...



The bible teaches that possessing the Torah does not mean one is just or righteous. The evidence is found in Romans 3, when he cites those Psalms that you supposedly read so many times...

Is God's Word wrong? Of course not, just the interpretation of It.

Regards

I think that you're interpreting it the same way.. by saying that one is declared righteous before God by the faith in His promises, whether it's the Law of Moses which was given to Israel, or the gospel of His Son which is of course faith in God's Son..

So the Law isn't making anyone righteous, it's the faith in that Law and its promises which justified any Jew before God, before Christ..

Yes, No ?
 
The main thrust of this thread is to show that the OT proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the bible is the word of God... because the simple story of the gospel is told over and over again through its pages.. revealing the end from the beginning in limitless ways... all testifiying to the glory and majesty of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
I think that you're interpreting it the same way.. by saying that one is declared righteous before God by the faith in His promises, whether it's the Law of Moses which was given to Israel, or the gospel of His Son which is of course faith in God's Son..

So the Law isn't making anyone righteous, it's the faith in that Law and its promises which justified any Jew before God, before Christ..

Yes, No ?

As you likely know, the Law never had the power to save. That only comes through the Spirit of God. I think that is one of the key improvements of the New Covenant over the Old. The Spirit of God is now more widely available, as Peter mentions when stating that Joel's prophesy has been/is being fulfilled.

Another is that justification is now universally available, not just to Jews. Thus, possession of the Torah by ethnical Jews does not save. Yes, later in Romans, Paul notes the various advantages of being Jews, having the prophets, the law, etc.., all worthy gifts from God (and not won by merit). But with Christ, justification was made available universally - through faith. Our response to God's gift was no longer to become Jewish and follow dietary laws and celebration of animal sacrifices. It now was a just and righteous response to have faith in God and to walk in that faith.

People were justified, declared righteous, well before the giving of the law to Moses. Our response to God no longer depends upon becoming Jewish. It now depends upon faith in Christ, being moved by His Spirit. At any rate, to contrast faith v works is missing Paul's point here. The faithful Jew didn't believe he was earning anything, and he walked in faith in God, as well. Note Romans 4 for two fine examples. Paul's point, as Apostle to the Gentiles, was to assure these Gentiles (esp. at Galatia) that they did not have to become Jews.

As to your question, the Law does not make us just, since the Law never had that power! It was always about faith and trust in God. The underlying point of the Torah has not been done away with in Christ! Loving, faithful trust in God, as shown by our obedience to Him (whether the Commandment given by Christ or by God through Moses).

Regards
 
The main thrust of this thread is to show that the OT proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the bible is the word of God... because the simple story of the gospel is told over and over again through its pages.. revealing the end from the beginning in limitless ways... all testifiying to the glory and majesty of our Lord Jesus Christ.

While I agree with your premise, (the Bible is the Word of God) I think "the OT proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bible is the Word of God" is a circular argument - and thus, the argument does not prove anything. It will not prove to anyone who already is not a believer.

I think we've been through this before. The bible is the Word of God because our community of faith believes that it is. The Church heirarchy believes that it is led by the Spirit of God to identify the entire contents as Scriptures formally, and nothing more, and the people of the Church believe that God has given them that power...

As we learned, there is nothing in the OT that proves that Philemon is from God. We say it is because we believe that Paul was indeed giving us inerrant teachings from God, as he wrote to the Galatians and the Thessalonians. These teachings resonate within us, and by experience, we come to firmly believe that the bible is from God. But I think your statement above doesn't really prove it...

Regards
 
While I agree with your premise, (the Bible is the Word of God) I think "the OT proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bible is the Word of God" is a circular argument - and thus, the argument does not prove anything. It will not prove to anyone who already is not a believer.

I think we've been through this before. The bible is the Word of God because our community of faith believes that it is. The Church heirarchy believes that it is led by the Spirit of God to identify the entire contents as Scriptures formally, and nothing more, and the people of the Church believe that God has given them that power...

As we learned, there is nothing in the OT that proves that Philemon is from God. We say it is because we believe that Paul was indeed giving us inerrant teachings from God, as he wrote to the Galatians and the Thessalonians. These teachings resonate within us, and by experience, we come to firmly believe that the bible is from God. But I think your statement above doesn't really prove it...

Regards

So in your opinion, regardless of the fact that the bible tells the gospel story over and over again, before it ever came to pass.. is not proof that it's the word of God..?

How else could that have happened... who else could have told us the end from the beginning in countless, living and powerful ways, before it ever happened..?
 
So in your opinion, regardless of the fact that the bible tells the gospel story over and over again, before it ever came to pass.. is not proof that it's the word of God..?

How else could that have happened... who else could have told us the end from the beginning in countless, living and powerful ways, before it ever happened..?

Yes, I have heard the "prophesy" proof, and to us, it aids in our belief. However, aren't the prophesies relatively vague? I believe God made them that way so that we would require faith to believe. If they were "proof", where we had no choice but to assent, it is no longer faith. Isn't that the definition of faith in Hebrews?

If the proofs are "obvious", the Jews certainly were in a position to all KNOW that Jesus was the Messiah. However, He only subtly reveals Himself, relying on the faith of the hearer, whether it touches their heart or not. If the prophesies were less vague and it was certain that Jesus fit into all of them, the Jews would have no choice BUT to assent, just like "it is light outside when the sun comes up". No one can argue that. We must assent to it. Prophesies, by their nature, are vague, giving the hearer the opportunity to believe - or not.

They are only "proof" to the believer.

Regards
 
Yes, I have heard the "prophesy" proof, and to us, it aids in our belief. However, aren't the prophesies relatively vague? I believe God made them that way so that we would require faith to believe. If they were "proof", where we had no choice but to assent, it is no longer faith. Isn't that the definition of faith in Hebrews?

If the proofs are "obvious", the Jews certainly were in a position to all KNOW that Jesus was the Messiah. However, He only subtly reveals Himself, relying on the faith of the hearer, whether it touches their heart or not. If the prophesies were less vague and it was certain that Jesus fit into all of them, the Jews would have no choice BUT to assent, just like "it is light outside when the sun comes up". No one can argue that. We must assent to it. Prophesies, by their nature, are vague, giving the hearer the opportunity to believe - or not.

They are only "proof" to the believer.

Regards

Well if you consider things like Abraham offering his only begotten son on the mountain, or him sending his eldest servant to find a bride for his only begotten son... and countless other stories as vague... then sure..

Glad to see you agree though.. I would think that most Christians would rejoice in this type of thing.
 
The Word of God is first and foremost Spirit. Therefore I agree that the scriptures testify to this Word for it is inspired by the Holy Spirit which testifies to the Word. I find however that there are those who equate the letter to the Spirit. The Letter is only a shadow of the substance of the Word, which as I said is Spirit.

I don't understand what you're saying here. God speaks to us through our intellect. While it's true that non-believers can gain intellectual knowledge of scripture but can not accept Christ as Lord until they are born again, to say that believers can't use rational thought to understand what God has said in the Bible is nonsensical. Is that what you're saying?
 
Predicting the specific ancestry, place of birth, form of death, and date of death hundreds of years before the events take place can not be considered "vague."
 
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