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[__ Prayer __] yet another shooting

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jasonc

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There's a huge difference between being a heavy gamer, and reading the gory stories of the OT. For one, there is nothing about the gory stories that tells us "go and do likewise;" neither is there a reward system in place for doing so.
Oh,in context Davids rewards was his first wife.

So we should only watch bible movies,no movies nor entertain ment at all,not even war movies,actual stories of war are gory,very dark.

I'm not into violent games, movies but understand the other side
 

jasonc

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I'm not saying that what we watch doesn't affect us, but we cant be so legalistic on this when the bible isn't.
 

Biblesurveyor

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We need large signs close to the entrance of schools that say this (or something equivalent)

WARNING: PROCEED WITH CAUTION: ANY DISRUPTION WILL BE MET WITH ARMED STAFF MEMBERS WHO ARE INSTRUCTED TO SHOOT TO KILL!!!

And it must be enforced, for the safety of the students! Once this gets around among the students, staff and community, anyone bent on causing harm will think twice.

Does this sound like schools are prison camps and not learning centers? (well, they'll have to be that!)

Well, this is what its coming to, like it or not! (I was a teacher myself)
 

Knotical

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We need large signs close to the entrance of schools that say this (or something equivalent)

WARNING: PROCEED WITH CAUTION: ANY DISRUPTION WILL BE MET WITH ARMED STAFF MEMBERS WHO ARE INSTRUCTED TO SHOOT TO KILL!!!

And it must be enforced, for the safety of the students! Once this gets around among the students, staff and community, anyone bent on causing harm will think twice.

Does this sound like schools are prison camps and not learning centers? (well, they'll have to be that!)

Well, this is what its coming to, like it or not! (I was a teacher myself)
That's a little overkill, don't you think? (pardon the pun)

Are you saying that ANY disruption will be met with armed response? So, if someone is just making some noise in the hallway some teachers are going to pop out of their classrooms with guns drawn?

It still does not address the cause of the shootings. Someone is retaliating against an individual or a group of people who treated them poorly, and they feel justified in attempting to take lives. We have to fix the cause, not the result.
 

Biblesurveyor

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"Are you saying that ANY disruption will be met with armed response? "

Of course not (as far as any disruption). I mean a "clear and present endangerment of lives", such as displaying a weapon.

Teachers are familiar with the students, and believe me, they know who the suspicious ones are. If they see a gun being waved, which we hope never happens, they will immediately assess the situation and know if its a threat to the safety of the students.

You use the word "overkill". Are you serious? We've already had overkill. Just think back to Sandy Hook, where young lives were snuffed out. Just think back to Va. Tech, where 32 innocent lives were taken. Now, THAT is overkill.
Llanza knew he would be killed, but that is what he wanted. Why did he take the lives away from the children? Same with Cho at Va. Tech, but he killed himself first.

These shootings are tearing my heart out (and every one else's that I know of who've followed there tragedies.) You know and I know that something has to be done. And it has to be preventative measures that are one a par with the forces of weapons being used.
 

Knotical

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"Are you saying that ANY disruption will be met with armed response? "

Of course not (as far as any disruption). I mean a "clear and present endangerment of lives", such as displaying a weapon.

Teachers are familiar with the students, and believe me, they know who the suspicious ones are. If they see a gun being waved, which we hope never happens, they will immediately assess the situation and know if its a threat to the safety of the students.

You use the word "overkill". Are you serious? We've already had overkill. Just think back to Sandy Hook, where young lives were snuffed out. Just think back to Va. Tech, where 32 innocent lives were taken. Now, THAT is overkill.
Llanza knew he would be killed, but that is what he wanted. Why did he take the lives away from the children? Same with Cho at Va. Tech, but he killed himself first.

These shootings are tearing my heart out (and every one else's that I know of who've followed there tragedies.) You know and I know that something has to be done. And it has to be preventative measures that are one a par with the forces of weapons being used.
If the teachers know their students so well then why was nothing done prior to the shootings taking place. No, not only are these kids being overlooked by their teachers, but also people in other authority positions. There have been multiple cases where shooters were on the radar of local police all the way up to the FBI in some cases, and nothing was done to prevent the shootings.

But if we go back to the cause of each one of these events, you will find that the shooters were the subject of ridicule, and other forms of bullying, which made them take these actions. If the teachers were really so in tune to what was going on a lot more of these events would have been avoided.
 

Biblesurveyor

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If the teachers know their students so well then why was nothing done prior to the shootings taking place. No, not only are these kids being overlooked by their teachers, but also people in other authority positions. There have been multiple cases where shooters were on the radar of local police all the way up to the FBI in some cases, and nothing was done to prevent the shootings.

But if we go back to the cause of each one of these events, you will find that the shooters were the subject of ridicule, and other forms of bullying, which made them take these actions. If the teachers were really so in tune to what was going on a lot more of these events would have been avoided[/B].

It seems to me that you have answered my concerns. All of the background checks, gun control, mental health checks, etc are all good, but many times they fail to ferret out the danger cases. And you can't blame the teachers. Go through a day with a teacher sometime and try to cover all the material on the lesson plans to five classes, take a 15 min. lunch break (if you find the time), and at 3:30 p.m. (if you don't have bus duty), and see if you are tired and drained.

Take a hypothetical case, and be honest. Suppose you are a loving dad with 2 daughters at a school in your home town. You pay, you work hard, your lovely wife is home more than you, and you are well known and respected in the community, participate in the community affairs, go to PTA meetings, and all the rest.

On a certain day, while you are feeling comfortable and confidant that your girls are safe and being cared (remember that the teachers abide by the (in loco parentis principle)). But on the radio you hear a disconcerting report that there might be an active shooter at the school. Your school has adopted the rule of armed staff. Now suppose I am one of those staff members, and that you know my background - I'm an army veteran, I've had sniper training, an expert rifleman, and you and I have discussed the possibility that there might be an incident someday. I have given you my assurance that I will do everything possible to protect the students - even giving my life is necessary.
You go into a panic, and obviously scurry to the school, but on the radio the news comes that the shooter has been wounded by an armed teacher and is in custody. How do you feel? (and be honest)

Your answer will depend upon whether you agree or disagree with me. (some of the above was once correct for me)
 

Knotical

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It seems to me that you have answered my concerns. All of the background checks, gun control, mental health checks, etc are all good, but many times they fail to ferret out the danger cases. And you can't blame the teachers. Go through a day with a teacher sometime and try to cover all the material on the lesson plans to five classes, take a 15 min. lunch break (if you find the time), and at 3:30 p.m. (if you don't have bus duty), and see if you are tired and drained.

Take a hypothetical case, and be honest. Suppose you are a loving dad with 2 daughters at a school in your home town. You pay, you work hard, your lovely wife is home more than you, and you are well known and respected in the community, participate in the community affairs, go to PTA meetings, and all the rest.

On a certain day, while you are feeling comfortable and confidant that your girls are safe and being cared (remember that the teachers abide by the (in loco parentis principle)). But on the radio you hear a disconcerting report that there might be an active shooter at the school. Your school has adopted the rule of armed staff. Now suppose I am one of those staff members, and that you know my background - I'm an army veteran, I've had sniper training, an expert rifleman, and you and I have discussed the possibility that there might be an incident someday. I have given you my assurance that I will do everything possible to protect the students - even giving my life is necessary.
You go into a panic, and obviously scurry to the school, but on the radio the news comes that the shooter has been wounded by an armed teacher and is in custody. How do you feel? (and be honest)

Your answer will depend upon whether you agree or disagree with me. (some of the above was once correct for me)
Something that is also overlooked is whether or not the parent(s) have any kind of relationship to the shooter. My guess is most often the cases is "no." If the parent(s) have a relationship with the shooter they would be able to spot the warning signs. Parents who basically leave their kids alone suddenly are surprised when they start acting out.

Point being, it should always start at home.
 

Razeontherock

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We have to fix the cause, not the result.
Fixing the cause is a marvelous idea, but first we HAVE to fix the "result." Which is folks becoming mass murderers, in school.

We do not have the luxury of waiting for all the social ills that contribute to this problem to be sorted out before doing something about it, which is exactly the stance that has been taken for the past 19 years: do nothing.
 

Knotical

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Fixing the cause is a marvelous idea, but first we HAVE to fix the "result." Which is folks becoming mass murderers, in school.

We do not have the luxury of waiting for all the social ills that contribute to this problem to be sorted out before doing something about it, which is exactly the stance that has been taken for the past 19 years: do nothing.
Fixing the effect before the cause? When has that ever worked?
 

Biblesurveyor

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I'm going to take a line from a movie "A few good men", except I'll change a word or two.

"We live in a world that has halls, and those halls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who’s gonna do it? You? Counselor? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom, and that's protecting those students" (with apologies to Jack Nicholson)

You see, if you go back and read my last post, here is what would happen to me if I were the parent who had a child in that school, and the events took place as described. If I heard that radio report and knew my child was safe, I would pull over to the side of the road (probably in tears) and say a silent prayer, giving God thanks that my child was safe, and have a profound debt of gratitude to the person who confronted the shooter. And admit it, so would you!

So you see, you do agree after all.
 

Razeontherock

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Fixing the effect before the cause? When has that ever worked?
NOW! Look how many would be mass school shooters have been stopped since Parkland, now that people have FINALLY gotten serious about doing something.
Platitudes haven't done it. Teachers tweeting #ArmMeWith hasn't done it, although they have GREAT points towards long term solutions. The generation with condoms up their nose and Tide pods down their gullet babbling on about shredding the Constitution hasn't done a thing that helped.

Good guys with guns have stopped bad guys with guns. This is a short term, necessary action, in conjunction with other things that obviously aren't being done in the short term, (like restricting access to schools in the first place) before long term solutions that take at least a generation to take effect can really have a chance to work. This was perfectly obvious in the wake of Columbine 19 years ago, now is not the time to return to being blind to these harsh facts.
 

Knotical

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NOW! Look how many would be mass school shooters have been stopped since Parkland, now that people have FINALLY gotten serious about doing something.
Platitudes haven't done it. Teachers tweeting #ArmMeWith hasn't done it, although they have GREAT points towards long term solutions. The generation with condoms up their nose and Tide pods down their gullet babbling on about shredding the Constitution hasn't done a thing that helped.

Good guys with guns have stopped bad guys with guns. This is a short term, necessary action, in conjunction with other things that obviously aren't being done in the short term, (like restricting access to schools in the first place) before long term solutions that take at least a generation to take effect can really have a chance to work. This was perfectly obvious in the wake of Columbine 19 years ago, now is not the time to return to being blind to these harsh facts.
Good guys with guns is not a new approach. Sure, when there is someone at the site of a potentially horrific incident who is able to respond in kind with the shooter there are lives that are saved that would otherwise be lost. However, if we go back and take a look at how these shooters were being treated and identify the warning signs (which is really easy for an engaged parent) you can stop it before it starts.

The real solution for every one of these school shootings is to develop a culture where bullying is not tolerated, and if there is bullying going on then the parents of the individual being bullied should be engaged enough to notice the change in behavior in their child and address the problem before it gets out of hand.
 

HeIsRisen2018

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NOW! Look how many would be mass school shooters have been stopped since Parkland, now that people have FINALLY gotten serious about doing something.
Platitudes haven't done it. Teachers tweeting #ArmMeWith hasn't done it, although they have GREAT points towards long term solutions. The generation with condoms up their nose and Tide pods down their gullet babbling on about shredding the Constitution hasn't done a thing that helped.

Good guys with guns have stopped bad guys with guns. This is a short term, necessary action, in conjunction with other things that obviously aren't being done in the short term, (like restricting access to schools in the first place) before long term solutions that take at least a generation to take effect can really have a chance to work. This was perfectly obvious in the wake of Columbine 19 years ago, now is not the time to return to being blind to these harsh facts.

Umm.. haven't you heard about the two recent school shootings that happened ever since the one that happened at Parkland? One was in Texas and I forgot where the other one was at but they both happened within the past few weeks.
 

Razeontherock

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Umm.. haven't you heard about the two recent school shootings that happened ever since the one that happened at Parkland? One was in Texas and I forgot where the other one was at but they both happened within the past few weeks.
I heard about the ones that were STOPPED by armed resistance and think they are the ones you're referring to.
 

HeIsRisen2018

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I heard about the ones that were STOPPED by armed resistance and think they are the ones you're referring to.


Yes they are and that's a very good point. However, my point was it doesn't seem like the school shooting number is increasing instead of decreasing. However, the security is definitely increasing and the other one that I was thinking of by the way was Indiana. I just looked it up.
 

Razeontherock

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If would be mass school shooters keep encountering resistance like they have in these cases, fewer attempts will be made.
The prevalence of these perps intentionally dying in their efforts is disturbing, and also dictates we have to be deadly serious about dealing with them. Those won't stop, but have to BE stopped. That's why I constantly refer back to Columbine, and how obvious this was back then ...
 

iLOVE

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Jesus said, "You can't do anything without Him". Without Jesus the hedge comes down (Ecclesiastes 10:8).
 

StoveBolts

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Really guys? In a prayer forum?....

I'll ask Nick if he wants this in Hot Topics. It's clear this thread has little to nothing to do with prayer.
 

Razeontherock

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Good guys with guns is not a new approach. Sure, when there is someone at the site of a potentially horrific incident who is able to respond in kind with the shooter there are lives that are saved that would otherwise be lost. However, if we go back and take a look at how these shooters were being treated and identify the warning signs (which is really easy for an engaged parent) you can stop it before it starts.

The real solution for every one of these school shootings is to develop a culture where bullying is not tolerated, and if there is bullying going on then the parents of the individual being bullied should be engaged enough to notice the change in behavior in their child and address the problem before it gets out of hand.
Sure that's all great and if we could do all that we wouldn't even need prayer. Meanwhile back to reality, 'a culture where bullying isn't tolerated' has never existed in this Country, yet never resulted in violence like this; before Columbine it was really rare. Obviously there's more at play here, and we can't legislate "be a better parent."

And yeah, this discussion would be more appropriate in "hot topics." Putting good guys with guns in schools is such a new idea even at this late date that very vocal opponents of it are still successfully making sure nobody does anything about the problem throughout most US jurisdictions. That's sad and immoral, both.
 
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