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Your Choice: Circumcision or Concision

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I for one, really abhor the emphasis on laws'-keeping in order to merit salvation. I abhor that because it is foreign to the Bible, and antithetical to the doctrine of free grace, which is clearly taught in the Bible. Therefore this is an exposing and denunciation of the Galatian heresy that some cults practice

Usually cults like the SDA, Mormons, Oneness, etc will cobble together some verses from Scripture and ask questions like this: "How do you separate faith and repentance when James 2:18 and Acts 26:20 show there's a parallel in how both are shown by what one does?"


So, since they are wishing to pit Bible verses against each other, and to create ungodly confusion, I begin with Scripture:
.
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness

Psalm 32:1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 4: 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised
.
Those cult guys (and gals) focus on two verses that SEEM to support what they want because you take them out of context. However, I focused on FOUR DIFFERENT PASSAGES all of which contain FIFTEEN verses that clearly state differently

In case you may not understand the meaning of the word "impute" it means to charge someone with something, such as a crime, in general, it means an attribute, to a another person, such as claiming Harry Houdini had magical powers.

But since this is theology, it is important to understand that any attribution such as righteousness IS ALWAYS DONE VICARIOUSLY. That means that the attribution ALWAYS COMES FROM SOMEONE ELSE. So in the cases of Abraham and of David, the attribution of righteousness came from Messiah. In both of these cases, the foundation is simple belief, and has ZERO to do with works, Also notice that David specifically links the imputation of righteousness with salvation, which is what he is saying when he says, "His sin is covered". The individual cannot cover his own sins, the individual cannot receive forgiveness by and of himself because covering of one's sins requires by definition that Someone else must do the covering.

Notice the parallel that Paul uses: circumcision. I am not attempting to be gross here, but it is well-known that a man will not circumcise himself, and if that is attempted, the result is a mutilation. The proper name for that is called "concision" and that is how Paul describes the Galatian heresy. That is because they are attempting to "circumcise themselves" by preforming good works, "works of arrogation" [ presumptuously and arrogantly assuming something that rightfully belongs to another] by which their false concept of "salvation" which comes from self efforts and not total resting on the vicarious works of Jesus Christ. No one can do anything to be declared righteous, and it MUST be done by God, and THAT must rest on the faith and trust that Jesus Christ has done all that is necessary for one's salvation.

So essentially when anyone, such as the posters seem to do and links works as a requirement for faith then that person is attempting self-circumcision, and the result is a botched job called "concision", or a mutilation. For indeed that particular theology is mutilating the concept of free and unconditional (pardon the redundancy) grace given to us by a loving Father because we believe in whar the Son of God has done for us.

Really, it could not be much clearer, or simpler.




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If a person doesn't have the putting off of the flesh nature done by the Spirit of God as described in Romans 2:29 NASB, then they probably don't have the Spirit of God in salvation. That is how works do in fact have something to do with salvation. The fruits of righteousness in the heart accompany salvation:

"7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation..."
(Hebrews 6:7-9 NASB)


The fruit that accompanies salvation is not the procurer of that salvation, but rather the evidence of it. The evidence that so many in the Protestant church are convinced they can be saved without, their thorns and thistles somehow being able to confirm a faith in Christ they do not have.

You see, the major problem plaguing the church is not that people in the church are trying to earn salvation through righteous works. It's that so many people in the church think an uncircumcised heart means you're saved, nonetheless. The reasoning being, salvation is so utterly not of works.
 
If a person doesn't have the putting off of the flesh nature done by the Spirit of God as described in Romans 2:29 NASB, then they probably don't have the Spirit of God in salvation. That is how works do in fact have something to do with salvation. The fruits of righteousness in the heart accompany salvation:

"7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation..."
(Hebrews 6:7-9 NASB)


The fruit that accompanies salvation is not the procurer of that salvation, but rather the evidence of it. The evidence that so many in the Protestant church are convinced they can be saved without, their thorns and thistles somehow being able to confirm a faith in Christ they do not have.

You see, the major problem plaguing the church is not that people in the church are trying to earn salvation through righteous works. It's that so many people in the church think an uncircumcised heart means you're saved, nonetheless. The reasoning being, salvation is so utterly not of works.
Heb 6:8~~ but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

1 Cor 3:15~~New American Standard Bible
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
 
Heb 6:8~~ but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

1 Cor 3:15~~New American Standard Bible
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
How do uncircumcised people who only bear thorns and thistles because they don't have the Spirit of God only come 'close' to being burned up on the Day of Wrath?

I'm pretty sure the author is saying fruitless people are close to being cursed now, and IN THE END will be burned (Hebrews 6:8 NASB). Cursed ground that bears only thorns and thistles does not get saved on the Day of Wrath, bur rather burned up. But if your 'soil' has the fruit of the Spirit growing in it--that is, it has what accompanies salvation growing in it--you will not be cursed, and you have no fear of being burned up on the Day of Wrath. But so many people think they have the surety of salvation despite their fruitless ground because as they say 'salvation is so utterly not of works', for all that means to them.
 
How do uncircumcised people who only bear thorns and thistles because they don't have the Spirit of God only come 'close' to being burned up on the Day of Wrath?
What do you mean they were uncircumcised?
Heb 6:1~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

These people were not only circumcised physically(Jews), they were circumcised spiritually and to the point that the writer of Hebrews was taking them beyond the elementary level of Christ.

So these people were unsaved, and the writer was going to take them beyond the elementary doctrine of Christ?
 
What do you mean they were uncircumcised?
Heb 6:1~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

These people were not only circumcised physically(Jews), they were circumcised spiritually and to the point that the writer of Hebrews was taking them beyond the elementary level of Christ.

So these people were unsaved, and the writer was going to take them beyond the elementary doctrine of Christ?
He's not talking about the Hebrews not having that which accompanies salvation. He said they do have "things that accompany salvation" (Hebrews 6:9 NASB). He's contrasting them with those who do NOT have things that accompany salvation. They have thorns and thistles in their soil--soil that had the blessing of the gospel, but did not bear it's fruit. That kind of ground is close to being cursed, and is the kind of soil that will be burned up on the Day of Wrath, not spared, like so many Protestants believe will happen to unfruitful soil, because, as they say, "salvation is so utterly NOT of works...yada, yada, yada...."

It's funny, but by saying that works are not a requirement for salvation, the OP is practically saying circumcision is really uncircumcision. Not knowing that the circumcision done by God is indeed the putting off of the deeds of the flesh:

"...in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ" (Colossians 2:11 NASB)

The point being, If you really have the circumcision done by Christ, not the hands of men, that occurs in salvation, it will show in the putting off of the deeds of the flesh. But so many think you can be circumcised by Christ, but still be in the flesh, essentially making the circumcision of God uncircumcision.
 
So essentially when anyone, such as the posters seem to do and links works as a requirement for faith then that person is attempting self-circumcision, and the result is a botched job called "concision", or a mutilation.
...Not if works as a requirement for faith means what the author of Hebrews says, that there are indeed things that accompany salvation. And without them you are a barren field in danger of being cursed, which will be burned on the Day of Wrath.

8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation..."
(Hebrews 6:8-9 NASB)


A salvation that yields thorns and thistles is not the salvation of Christ. But so many in the church are sure that it is.
 
...Not if works as a requirement for faith means what the author of Hebrews says, that there are indeed things that accompany salvation. And without them you are a barren field in danger of being cursed, which will be burned on the Day of Wrath.

8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation..."
(Hebrews 6:8-9 NASB)


A salvation that yields thorns and thistles is not the salvation of Christ. But so many in the church are sure that it is.

Jethro,
I believe that the context of a verse is vital to understanding its true meaning (along with exegesis, of course). In the verses you posted, the key words are these "THAT ACCOMPANY SALVATION".

Please look at the beginning words of this section, and then ask/answer if the topic of the section concerns someone not a Christian who needs salvation, or is it someone who has been saved?

Hebrews 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come...​
.
Since the past tense is used here, and the author of Hebrews says that the person was "once enlightened" "partook of Holy Spirit" and "tasted the heavenly gift" it is my opinion that these verses are the framework for the verses which you quoted, and NOT mentioning being saved because from all evidences, the person had the appearance of being saved.

One mantra I keep on saying whenever I post is this: "ANY verse removed from its context is a pretext 100% of the time." I believe that using those verses that you quoted, Hebrews 6:8 & 9 are no exception to that rule for the reasons I listed above.

To state it slightly differently, the word "accompany" does not mean,"come before" or "come after"; it means "come along with". Therefore the verses you selected mean only that good works are expected to be present in the believer because good works go along, beside salvation.

Hebrews 6:8 says the same thing, in a third, slightly manner: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Just as good, sweet fruit is expected to come from a fig tree, so also are good and sweet works expected to come from the ones who have salvation.

We MAY agree here, but I wanted to clarify things, OK?

Here are concrete examples from LDS sources, including their "Scripture book" the Book of Mormon:
2 Nephi 25:23 "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Moroni 10:32 "... if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you"

The LDS-published "Bible Dictionary" defines grace as:

"grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts." from https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/grace?lang=eng

No, in posting these references, I am NOT attempting to promote any cult. I could do likewise for the SDA, which I believe is a similar cult, or any other cult. My reason for this thread, and this reply is to demonstrate how works-centered and grace-absent the LDS theology is. I believe that their books demonstrate that they seek to "save themselves by doing good works". BTW did any of you readers know that in order to go to their Temples, they need to go to a bishop (Mitt Romney is one) or a Stake President and answer several difficult questions HERE in order to get through the gates of the Temple?

I will discuss other things as they come up here, and I am not on any particular warpath, but I surely am Gung-Ho about God's unmerited grace whereby He saved me and He did that through no works that I did.
 
...the word "accompany" does not mean,"come before" or "come after"; it means "come along with". Therefore the verses you selected mean only that good works are expected to be present in the believer because good works go along, beside salvation.

Hebrews 6:8 says the same thing, in a third, slightly manner: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Just as good, sweet fruit is expected to come from a fig tree, so also are good and sweet works expected to come from the ones who have salvation.

We MAY agree here, but I wanted to clarify things, OK?
That is exactly what I'm saying.

Here are concrete examples from LDS sources, including their "Scripture book" the Book of Mormon:
2 Nephi 25:23 "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Moroni 10:32 "... if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you"

The LDS-published "Bible Dictionary" defines grace as:

"grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts." from https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/grace?lang=eng
Of course, we in the Protestant evangelical church instantly recognize these doctrines as utter blaspheme. And that is the point I made: This problem of working to earn God's grace in salvation is not really the problem we Protestant evangelicals struggle with. We struggle with the opposite extreme. All too many of us think that grace removes the requirement for the 'along side' works of faith. You know, those "things that accompany salvation" the author of Hebrews talks about (Hebrews 6:9 NASB). The thinking being that since salvation is so utterly not about what I do then works are not a necessary component of a saved person's life, little knowing that the faith that justifies, all by itself apart from works, is the faith that works. Those works being the signifying mark of the faith that justifies, just as getting wet is the obligatory consequence and sign of having gone swimming.

To translate this into the circumcision analogy you use, too many in the church think the circumcision of Christ does not have to be a circumcising and cutting away of the deeds of the flesh. But the Bible clearly defines that circumcision as being that very thing--the cutting away of the deeds of the flesh from the believer:

"11 ...in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ" (Colossians 2:11 NASB)

That's why I said the Protestant church has made circumcision uncircumcision.


No, in posting these references, I am NOT attempting to promote any cult. I could do likewise for the SDA, which I believe is a similar cult, or any other cult. My reason for this thread, and this reply is to demonstrate how works-centered and grace-absent the LDS theology is. I believe that their books demonstrate that they seek to "save themselves by doing good works". BTW did any of you readers know that in order to go to their Temples, they need to go to a bishop (Mitt Romney is one) or a Stake President and answer several difficult questions HERE in order to get through the gates of the Temple?
Okay, I won't rain on your parade here. I'll bow out with the discussion about the opposite extreme of distorted grace.

It is interesting that these 'Christian' cults exist despite the clear teaching of Paul about the impossibility of earning a declaration of righteousness through righteous work. I guess that's testimony to the fact that mere written words never changed a single soul. Only the voice of God in the heart can show a man what is truth, and what is not.
 
I for one, really abhor the emphasis on laws'-keeping in order to merit salvation. I abhor that because it is foreign to the Bible, and antithetical to the doctrine of free grace, which is clearly taught in the Bible. Therefore this is an exposing and denunciation of the Galatian heresy that some cults practice

Usually cults like the SDA, Mormons, Oneness, etc will cobble together some verses from Scripture and ask questions like this: "How do you separate faith and repentance when James 2:18 and Acts 26:20 show there's a parallel in how both are shown by what one does?"


So, since they are wishing to pit Bible verses against each other, and to create ungodly confusion, I begin with Scripture:
.
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness

Psalm 32:1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 4: 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised
.
Those cult guys (and gals) focus on two verses that SEEM to support what they want because you take them out of context. However, I focused on FOUR DIFFERENT PASSAGES all of which contain FIFTEEN verses that clearly state differently

In case you may not understand the meaning of the word "impute" it means to charge someone with something, such as a crime, in general, it means an attribute, to a another person, such as claiming Harry Houdini had magical powers.

But since this is theology, it is important to understand that any attribution such as righteousness IS ALWAYS DONE VICARIOUSLY. That means that the attribution ALWAYS COMES FROM SOMEONE ELSE. So in the cases of Abraham and of David, the attribution of righteousness came from Messiah. In both of these cases, the foundation is simple belief, and has ZERO to do with works, Also notice that David specifically links the imputation of righteousness with salvation, which is what he is saying when he says, "His sin is covered". The individual cannot cover his own sins, the individual cannot receive forgiveness by and of himself because covering of one's sins requires by definition that Someone else must do the covering.

Notice the parallel that Paul uses: circumcision. I am not attempting to be gross here, but it is well-known that a man will not circumcise himself, and if that is attempted, the result is a mutilation. The proper name for that is called "concision" and that is how Paul describes the Galatian heresy. That is because they are attempting to "circumcise themselves" by preforming good works, "works of arrogation" [ presumptuously and arrogantly assuming something that rightfully belongs to another] by which their false concept of "salvation" which comes from self efforts and not total resting on the vicarious works of Jesus Christ. No one can do anything to be declared righteous, and it MUST be done by God, and THAT must rest on the faith and trust that Jesus Christ has done all that is necessary for one's salvation.

So essentially when anyone, such as the posters seem to do and links works as a requirement for faith then that person is attempting self-circumcision, and the result is a botched job called "concision", or a mutilation. For indeed that particular theology is mutilating the concept of free and unconditional (pardon the redundancy) grace given to us by a loving Father because we believe in whar the Son of God has done for us.

Really, it could not be much clearer, or simpler.




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It seems to me that you're using Paul's argument in a different context than he is. Paul's argument is faith vs. the Mosaic Law, not faith vs, obedience.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. (Rom 3:27-28 NKJ)
 
It seems to me that you're using Paul's argument in a different context than he is. Paul's argument is faith vs. the Mosaic Law, not faith vs, obedience.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. (Rom 3:27-28 NKJ)

I think I see where you could get that idea; correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to believe that when I mentioned James 2:18 and Acts 26:26 that I was attempting to make a case for one being justified by one's actions first. NO, that is not the case.

I was mentioning the fact that cults, such as the LDS and the SDA will seek to justify their works-centered heresies by cobbling those two verses together. I was demonstrating that their theological position is in opposition to the free grace that comes only from Jesus alone.

Therefore, a re-reading of the post AFTER that mentioning of heresy will indicate that I am in absolute agreement with Romans 3:27-28.

Are we on the same page, now?
 
I think I see where you could get that idea; correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to believe that when I mentioned James 2:18 and Acts 26:26 that I was attempting to make a case for one being justified by one's actions first. NO, that is not the case.

I was mentioning the fact that cults, such as the LDS and the SDA will seek to justify their works-centered heresies by cobbling those two verses together. I was demonstrating that their theological position is in opposition to the free grace that comes only from Jesus alone.

Therefore, a re-reading of the post AFTER that mentioning of heresy will indicate that I am in absolute agreement with Romans 3:27-28.

Are we on the same page, now?

I'm not sure. Can you define what you mean by "their works-centered heresies" and what does "free grace" mean to you?
 
I think I see where you could get that idea; correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to believe that when I mentioned James 2:18 and Acts 26:26 that I was attempting to make a case for one being justified by one's actions first. NO, that is not the case.
But James says we ARE justified by our actions, citing several obediences of the law to make the point.

"24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24 NASB)

Yet Paul does indeed say a man is NOT justified by works of the law:

"28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." (Romans 3:28 NASB)

What mistake are these cults making that puts James and Paul in direct contradiction to each other?
 
But James says we ARE justified by our actions, citing several obediences of the law to make the point.

"24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24 NASB)

Yet Paul does indeed say a man is NOT justified by works of the law:

"28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." (Romans 3:28 NASB)

What mistake are these cults making that puts James and Paul in direct contradiction to each other?

Well Jeff, it is obvious that we will never agree, and I could cite many things to demonstrate that you are the one in error, not me. BUT WHAT PURPOSE WOULD IT SERVE?

I cited fifteen verses to prove my point; I could have used 25, or 50 for that matter but because you will always believe as you do unless Holy Spirit convinces you otherwise; therefore, I ask, "What is the point?"

I could explain all the nuances of the word "impute" and go into the Greek to make my point, but I am of the opinion that you will not change your viewpoint no matter what I do. Continuing in this vein, discussing our different views will IMO generate more heat than light, and I am simply not in the mood to continue this on the open board. I had enough of that discussion to last a lifetime when I was in grad school.

Originally, this thread was created to discuss cults, but it morphed into something else, and it is essentially going into an area which I am loathe to discuss: Arminianism versus Calvinism. If you wanted to discuss this further in the 1 on 1 debate section, I may consider that. In the interim, I request that further discussion be centered on the false theology of cults.

thank you
 
Well Jeff, it is obvious that we will never agree, and I could cite many things to demonstrate that you are the one in error, not me. BUT WHAT PURPOSE WOULD IT SERVE?

I cited fifteen verses to prove my point; I could have used 25, or 50 for that matter but because you will always believe as you do unless Holy Spirit convinces you otherwise; therefore, I ask, "What is the point?"

I could explain all the nuances of the word "impute" and go into the Greek to make my point, but I am of the opinion that you will not change your viewpoint no matter what I do. Continuing in this vein, discussing our different views will IMO generate more heat than light, and I am simply not in the mood to continue this on the open board. I had enough of that discussion to last a lifetime when I was in grad school.

Originally, this thread was created to discuss cults, but it morphed into something else, and it is essentially going into an area which I am loathe to discuss: Arminianism versus Calvinism. If you wanted to discuss this further in the 1 on 1 debate section, I may consider that. In the interim, I request that further discussion be centered on the false theology of cults.

thank you
I honestly believe that the Arminianism and Calvinism camps are the most dangerous of them all. These 2 schools of thought dominate the USA anyway. And they are the most subtle counterfeits to true Christianity.

I would classify them as "cultish" in many of their doctrines.
 
Well Jeff, it is obvious that we will never agree, and I could cite many things to demonstrate that you are the one in error, not me. BUT WHAT PURPOSE WOULD IT SERVE?

I cited fifteen verses to prove my point; I could have used 25, or 50 for that matter but because you will always believe as you do unless Holy Spirit convinces you otherwise; therefore, I ask, "What is the point?"

I could explain all the nuances of the word "impute" and go into the Greek to make my point, but I am of the opinion that you will not change your viewpoint no matter what I do. Continuing in this vein, discussing our different views will IMO generate more heat than light, and I am simply not in the mood to continue this on the open board. I had enough of that discussion to last a lifetime when I was in grad school.

Originally, this thread was created to discuss cults, but it morphed into something else, and it is essentially going into an area which I am loathe to discuss: Arminianism versus Calvinism. If you wanted to discuss this further in the 1 on 1 debate section, I may consider that. In the interim, I request that further discussion be centered on the false theology of cults.

thank you
Lol, you misunderstand.

I was hoping you'd explain why the cults are wrong in thinking that James 2:24 NASB is somehow contradictory to Paul's Romans 3:28 NASB. Apparently, you thought I am in agreement with their interpretation of James 2:24 NASB that creates that contradiction, but I am not. They do indeed misunderstand what James was saying when he said a man is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. I was asking you to explain the mistake they are making. The mistake I in no way make myself.
 
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I honestly believe that the Arminianism and Calvinism camps are the most dangerous of them all. These 2 schools of thought dominate the USA anyway. And they are the most subtle counterfeits to true Christianity.

I would classify them as "cultish" in many of their doctrines.
Your doctrine's problem is it thinks any suggestion whatsoever that works have to be a part of a legitimate salvation experience can only mean that salvation is earned by those works. Your doctrine has no capacity whatsoever to understand that the faith that justifies all by itself, apart from works, is the faith that works.
 
Galatians 5:24-26 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Romans 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

If you have the Holy Spirit, it will make you holy and you will have fruit to show that you have it. When Jesus knew that people understood who he is, he then told them to "go and sin no more".
 
So essentially when anyone, such as the posters seem to do and links works as a requirement for faith then that person is attempting self-circumcision, and the result is a botched job called "concision", or a mutilation. For indeed that particular theology is mutilating the concept of free and unconditional (pardon the redundancy) grace given to us by a loving Father because we believe in whar the Son of God has done for us.

Really, it could not be much clearer, or simpler.




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No man can be saved by works, not the nicest, kindest person you ever met or has ever lived. If they could, then we would not have needed for God to send His Son to die in our place to give us a chance and offer for restoration FREE for the asking.
But faith without works is DEAD faith. We must take God at His Word to believe it, learn from it and adhere to it. We are not to keep all of the 613 laws that were added to Christ for transgressions, but do you think it is fine to lie? to cheat? to steal? to kill? to covet? to fornicate? Of course not if we plan to be a child of God. So these are still valid yet they have been condensed to 2 Love God and serve Him and love everyone else as yourself to do them no harm or cause loss. These fulfill all 10 in the Stone. Jesus is the Stone that the builders of the temple made with hands rejected right?
Our heavenly rewards come from our faith in God and faithfulness to Jesus The Word. Doesn't the Bible tell us he is The Word?
In the beginning was The Word........And the Word is the foundation of God's temple, no other foundation will do!

1 Cor 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
KJV


Along with growing in the Word to not just be a hearer, but a doer to raise up our standards, we also must have the same faith in God as Abraham and other's had when the believed God and acted on His Word as Truth.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
KJV
 
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