Conditional salvation is works salvation !

[Hopeful]

Again unbelief and disobedience are the same word in the original and are used interchangeably.

Example:
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Apples to Apples.
This is the only point I was making.
If you disagree then so be it.

I agree, sinners don't believe.

 

[Hopeful]

You cannot consciously disobey without first having Belief of what is to be obeyed .
That's a yes or a no ?
Pointing out someone's "original" poor understanding / bad translation does not make that any less a physical impossibility for me .
Of course everyone is allowed to believe that night does not follow day because someone mistakenly once said so, if they choose to
I choose not to .

If they really believed, they wouldn't tempt God with their disobedience.

 

[Hopeful]

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, ...

If you look at the context of 1 Peter 3 with regard for 1 Peter 1:10-12, you will see that the "preaching" was carried out many years before Jesus walked in the flesh..."by the Spirit". (1 Peter 3:18)
It is written..."Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Jesus's story about the rich man & the beggar named Lazarus is a true story.

I disagree.
It was a parable.

 

[Hopeful]

If they ask you, 'What is the sign of your Father in you?' say to them, 'it is movement and repose.'
-From the Lost Gospel of Thomas

Usually I answer with..."By my obedience to God."

 

[GodsGrace]

(What is WCF?)

Westminister Confession of Faith.
The SofF for the reformed, Calvinists.
1648

 

[GodsGrace]

If you look at the context of 1 Peter 3 with regard for 1 Peter 1:10-12, you will see that the "preaching" was carried out many years before Jesus walked in the flesh..."by the Spirit". (1 Peter 3:18)
It is written..."Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."

I disagree.
It was a parable.

Most theologians do not believe it was a parable but a true story.

 

[Edward]

Actually day follows night.


God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. Genesis 1:5





JLB

Riddle: What's faster than the speed of light?!















Answer: Darkness!

 

[Golgotha]

I'm not sure what translation you're quoting but I have never read the last word of v. 22 as being faith. In my preferred translation, the NET v2.1, it says " But the fruit of the Spirit is love joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,[aq] gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law." The translator's note [aq] says "Or “reliability”; see BDAG 818 s.v. πίστις 1.a." Neither faithfulness nor reliability have the same meaning as your "faith".

So which translation are you quoting that has "faith"?

The KJV

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Galatians 5:22-23 KJV

 

[Hopeful]

Westminister Confession of Faith.
The SofF for the reformed, Calvinists.
1648

Thank you so much.

 

[Golgotha]

If you look at the context of 1 Peter 3 with regard for 1 Peter 1:10-12, you will see that the "preaching" was carried out many years before Jesus walked in the flesh..."by the Spirit". (1 Peter 3:18)
It is written..."Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."

Yet Jesus descended to preach unto those in prison so what did He preach?

So I am pretty sure the two references are two different topics and are unrelated even though in that same Book of 1 Peter. Just as there are other topics broached in there.

I disagree.
It was a parable.

Usually scripture & He would announce a parable but He dd not do it here.

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

There is nothing metaphorical about it and He had referenced Abraham as he is a real person in it that I believe He was telling a real story about the afterlife.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[Hopeful]

Most theologians do not believe it was a parable but a true story.

Was the "story" before it also a true story?
The story of the man with two sons, one of which asked for his inheritance and left?
Both were lessons, delivered as only Jesus could deliver them...I feel

 

[Hopeful]

Yet Jesus descended to preach unto those in prison so what did He preach?

No, He didn't.
The Spirit by which He was raised from the dead was in the prophets and teachers of olden days delivering to them now dead (in prison) the message whereby we could be saved.

So I am pretty sure the two references are two different topics and are unrelated even though in that same Book of 1 Peter. Just as there are other topics broached in there.

"Pretty sure" is one of the ingredients of disaster.

Usually scripture & He would announce a parable but He dd not do it here.

Not always.

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
There is nothing metaphorical about it and He had referenced Abraham as he is a real person in it that I believe He was telling a real story about the afterlife.
Thank you for sharing.

I disagree, as those in hell will not be around to torment the righteous in their eternal home with God.

 

[Golgotha]

No, He didn't.
The Spirit by which He was raised from the dead was in the prophets and teachers of olden days delivering to them now dead (in prison) the message whereby we could be saved.

How do you apply this reference?

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

How do you apply this below?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

"Pretty sure" is one of the ingredients of disaster.

Fine. As far as the Lord goes in confirming His word to me, I am sure.

Not always.

I disagree, as those in hell will not be around to torment the righteous in their eternal home with God.

I believe this mindset is why we are not discussing the same thing when I had told you that Abraham's bosom aka Paradise is now located in Heaven since His ascension, did I not? 2 Corinthians 12;1-4.

 

[GodsGrace]

The KJV

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Galatians 5:22-23 KJV

The word should be faithfulness.
A lot has been learned since the 1600's.
What does the new KJV say?

 

[GodsGrace]

Was the "story" before it also a true story?
The story of the man with two sons, one of which asked for his inheritance and left?
Both were lessons, delivered as only Jesus could deliver them...I feel

I have to go with what most scholars believe.
Much studying goes into these topics.
Jesus never told a parable using person's names.
It's accepted theology that until Christ's death and resurrection the doors of heaven were not open, this would be what Golgotha is discussing with you.

 

[Hopeful]

How do you apply this reference?
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

The lower parts of the earth are everything on its surface.
Lower than the heavens above.
Jesus descended to the earth in the flesh, and ascended back to heaven.

How do you apply this below?
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened [U]by the Spirit: 19 By which also[/U] he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

By the Spirit, He showed the now dead, (in prison), prophets and teachers of olden times of the things to come...as is written in 1 Peter 1:10-11.

Fine. As far as the Lord goes in confirming His word to me, I am sure.
I believe this mindset is why we are not discussing the same thing when I had told you that Abraham's bosom aka Paradise is now located in Heaven since His ascension, did I not? 2 Corinthians 12;1-4.

I don't believe Revelations was written before 2 Cor.
Which would be necessary for your POV to be true.

 

[Hopeful]

I have to go with what most scholars believe.
Much studying goes into these topics.
Jesus never told a parable using person's names.
It's accepted theology that until Christ's death and resurrection the doors of heaven were not open, this would be what Golgotha is discussing with you.

Frankly speaking, I won't believe what "scholars" write unless part of their thesis includes living in total obedience to God.
As for the "accepted theology", weren't Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in heaven when Jesus quoted God and said..."But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matt 22:31-32)

 

[GodsGrace]

Frankly speaking, I won't believe what "scholars" write unless part of their thesis includes living in total obedience to God.
As for the "accepted theology", weren't Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in heaven when Jesus quoted God and said..."But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matt 22:31-32)

What does the one have to do with the other?
Abraham, isaac, and Jacob were alive.
Soul sleeping is not taught in the NT.

As to Luke, I don't argue this point.
And maybe, just maybe, those that know everything about the bible might know a bit more than we do. At least on some topics.

 

[Golgotha]

The word should be faithfulness.
A lot has been learned since the 1600's.
What does the new KJV say?

I pretty much rely on the KJV for the actual meat as in the actual message in His words.

If you apply faithfulness to that fruit of the Spirit, faith, then how can you not change the other fruits to the actions of the believer as well?

So it is by having those fruits by faith or by believing in Jesus Christ is how the believer lives as His disciples in following Him rather than sow to the works of the flesh.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:.... 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

By His workmanship in us by those fruits is how we are following Him as His disciples.

 

[Golgotha]

The lower parts of the earth are everything on its surface.
Lower than the heavens above.
Jesus descended to the earth in the flesh, and ascended back to heaven.

By the Spirit, He showed the now dead, (in prison), prophets and teachers of olden times of the things to come...as is written in 1 Peter 1:10-11.

I disagree and leave that truth to be seen in the scripture to Jesus help you see it.

I don't believe Revelations was written before 2 Cor.
Which would be necessary for your POV to be true.

So who was Paul talking about if not the apostle John & the Book of Revelations? 2 Corinthians 12:1-4

Just because "Biblical scholars" assume when any Book in the N.T. was written and that is their guess by the earliest "surviving" manuscripts, it does not mean there were no earlier ones back in the very days when His disciples & Paul had lived. Those who loved Him would use His words, wear manuscripts out, for why newer copies were needed to be made to replace them.