Conditional salvation is works salvation !

[GodsGrace]

I pretty much rely on the KJV for the actual meat as in the actual message in His words.

If you apply faithfulness to that fruit of the Spirit, faith, then how can you not change the other fruits to the actions of the believer as well?

So it is by having those fruits by faith or by believing in Jesus Christ is how the believer lives as His disciples in following Him rather than sow to the works of the flesh.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:.... 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

By His workmanship in us by those fruits is how we are following Him as His disciples.

On a phone,,,not used to writing this way.
Sorry for short replies.
The fruits are a result of being born again.
We become born again and then we naturally have these fruits...

To become born again we need FAITH.
This is a gift,,,,not a fruit.

We must have faith to BECOME born again.
This is a gift,,,,it comes Before,,,gifts come after.

See eph 2.8

 

[GodsGrace]

Frankly speaking, I won't believe what "scholars" write unless part of their thesis includes living in total obedience to God.
As for the "accepted theology", weren't Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in heaven when Jesus quoted God and said..."But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matt 22:31-32)

PS
On scholars..
Who do you think translated from Greek to English?

 

[GodsGrace]

I disagree and leave that truth to be seen in the scripture to Jesus help you see it.

So who was Paul talking about if not the apostle John & the Book of Revelations? 2 Corinthians 12:1-4

Just because "Biblical scholars" assume when any Book in the N.T. was written and that is their guess by the earliest "surviving" manuscripts, it does not mean there were no earlier ones back in the very days when His disciples & Paul had lived. Those who loved Him would use His words, wear manuscripts out, for why newer copies were needed to be made to replace them.

The earliest surviving manuscripts is not how dates are accepted.

I'm not sure why this was brought up but we can safely say that John wrote revelation at the end of the first century.

 

[JLB]

Exactly, the incongruity between night and day being as manifest as the division between unbelief and disobedience.

I do understand your laboring over a faulty translation .
I'm glad this proof of night and day was of help in clearing up this principle for you
You got it now, friend.

I'm glad to have been a help to you

On a phone,,,not used to writing this way.
Sorry for short replies.
The fruits are a result of being born again.
We become born again and then we naturally have these fruits...

To become born again we need FAITH.
This is a gift,,,,not a fruit.

We must have faith to BECOME born again.
This is a gift,,,,it comes Before,,,gifts come after.

See eph 2.8

I agree...

Which is why some translations render it as "faithfulness".


But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Galatians 5:22

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm glad to have been a help to you

I agree...

Which is why some translations render it as "faithfulness".


But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Galatians 5:22

Exactly.
Fruits come After salvation.
FAITHFULNESS is a fruit.
The Holy Spirit helps us to continue in our faith, both in what we believe or/and in our behaviour.

Eph 2.8 tells us that grace, faith and salvation are all gifts offered to us by God.

It cannot be both a gift and a fruit.

 

[Golgotha]

On a phone,,,not used to writing this way.
Sorry for short replies.
The fruits are a result of being born again.
We become born again and then we naturally have these fruits...

To become born again we need FAITH.
This is a gift,,,,not a fruit.

We must have faith to BECOME born again.
This is a gift,,,,it comes Before,,,gifts come after.

See eph 2.8

No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him. John 6:44

The Father is the One that hides the truth from the prudent & the wise & reveal them unto babes the revelation of His Son so they can believe in Him to be saved. Matthew 11:25-27

John 3:18-21 by noting verse 21 is proving that our believing in Jesus Christ is a manifestation of God for why and how the Father gives us to the son to believe in him to be saved per John 6:37-40.

So our believing in Jesus Christ as well as our faith in Him is a work of God.

 

[Golgotha]

The earliest surviving manuscripts is not how dates are accepted.

I'm not sure why this was brought up but we can safely say that John wrote revelation at the end of the first century.

I was "assuming" if you were doubting the existence of the Book of Revelation as being before Paul's 2nd epistle to the Corinthians because of when educated scholars had believed the Book of Revelation was written, but I would think Paul's testimony in that 2nd epistle to the Corinthians would suggest the event of John the apostle being taken to Heaven for how he got that Book of Revelation had happened before then.

 

[GodsGrace]

No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him. John 6:44

The Father is the One that hides the truth from the prudent & the wise & reveal them unto babes the revelation of His Son so they can believe in Him to be saved. Matthew 11:25-27

John 3:18-21 by noting verse 21 is proving that our believing in Jesus Christ is a manifestation of God for why and how the Father gives us to the son to believe in him to be saved per John 6:37-40.

So our believing in Jesus Christ as well as our faith in Him is a work of God.

Are you reformed?
I think so.

 

[GodsGrace]

I was "assuming" if you were doubting the existence of the Book of Revelation as being before Paul's 2nd epistle to the Corinthians because of when educated scholars had believed the Book of Revelation was written, but I would think Paul's testimony in that 2nd epistle to the Corinthians would suggest the event of John the apostle being taken to Heaven for how he got that Book of Revelation had happened before then.

??
Revelation is the last letter that was written.

 

[Golgotha]

Are you reformed?
I think so.

Not affiliated with any church denomination yet. Formerly Presbyterian. No more, but still a believer and follower of Jesus Christ.

I believe I am being used by Him in serving Him rather than look like I am trying to win convert to a specific denomination or something, but it would be nice to go to church with no apostasy in it to be with like-minded believers.

 

[PeterJens]

Whenever we make anything a must do prior to God saving us, and God saves us because of that we must do ir have done, we automatically forfeit salvation by Grace and come under the opposing view of salvation by works.
If a person says that they were saved after they obeyed, or after they believed, this person is in essence saying, salvation is of myself, of my work, and whether they admit it or not, they have something to boast of. Yet Gods word insists that salvation is the Gift of God, not of man, its not of works lest any man boast Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What is clear is it is easy to confuse the meaning of words, salvation, action, effort.
If we are new creations born of the Holy Spirit through grace and the word of God, it is meaningless to say works create such a thing. Either one is born of the Holy Spirit or not.

Paul emphasises the foundation upon which we build, is our choice.
Jesus makes things slightly more confusing, implying without following and obeying we will be destroyed by lifes pressures.

I have shared with folk who sincerely believe they know Jesus but deny love in their hearts. In their view the heart is desperately wicked and nothing good can ever be planted within. The unfortunate thing is this belief is denying Jesus cleansing and transformation, which is what being born of God is all about.

Faith says wherever we are, God can reach and transform us. Yes we have anger, desires and deep hurts and behaviour that is destructive, but if we open the door and repent, this will change. We are not defined by our sins and our past, but by Jesus and our walk with Him. And it does seem impossible, because who we are seems to be everything we know, except to die to this, and open to Jesus is rebirth and the first steps of a new life. We are not our own, but part of Christs body, in which He is working out His salvation. God bless you

 

[Golgotha]

??
Revelation is the last letter that was written.

Just because the Book of Revelation is the last book in the Bible, it does not negate that scripture in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 which proves Revelation was written before that second letter to the Corinthians. How the collection and the eventual compilation of the N.T. in the Bible, should not in any way confer that as the order they were written.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not affiliated with any church denomination yet. Formerly Presbyterian. No more, but still a believer and follower of Jesus Christ.

I believe I am being used by Him in serving Him rather than look like I am trying to win convert to a specific denomination or something, but it would be nice to go to church with no apostasy in it to be with like-minded believers.

The Presbyterian is still in you.
But those ideas might pass if you stay on these forums. Your posts are impressive and show a lot of study,,,which is also in keeping with presbyterianism for most of those folk.

 

[GodsGrace]

Just because the Book of Revelation is the last book in the Bible, it does not negate that scripture in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 which proves Revelation was written before that second letter to the Corinthians. How the collection and the eventual compilation of the N.T. in the Bible, should not in any way confer that as the order they were written.

Why 2 cor 12.1 to 4?
What does it have to do with Rev?

2 cor was written in the 50.s
Revelation was written in the 90.s

 

[GodsGrace]

Just because the Book of Revelation is the last book in the Bible, it does not negate that scripture in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 which proves Revelation was written before that second letter to the Corinthians. How the collection and the eventual compilation of the N.T. in the Bible, should not in any way confer that as the order they were written.

PS
None of the bible is in chronological order.

 

[PeterJens]

Is salvation conditional on our walk?
No, our walk declares the reality of our salvation and fellowship with Him.
To deny our walk and His love, is to demonstrate the lack of Jesus's work and the Holy Spirit within.

Factual emotional loyalty of religious politics and bigotry often hides behind doctrine and condemnation and real hatred of other groups. When Jesus said a good tree has good fruits, grapes and dates, he meant peace and reconciliation with all, while bad trees have bad fruits, thorns and thistles, hatred and a desire to hurt and destroy.

I have a right for what I have earnt. This is a strange ethic for a christian group, yet when you mention sharing and helping others in need, it is often illuminating how this becomes those wishing to destroy my country. It goes a bit deeper, that those who shout this the loudest have nothing in their hearts that will declare love your enemy and pray for those that persecute you.

One believer on a forum declared a christian encouraging people to be vaccinated was a callous murderer and liar, because they believed the vaccine is killing people. What is being missed is not the words, but the anger against innocents who are loving their neighbour and desiring to stop people being harmed. An innocent mistake is not evil, but this is bearing false witness against loving people, while claiming to know Jesus who died to save us all.

What often defines Gods people is how they overcome such issues in love and support and do not see enemies, but lost sinners in need of a saviour. God bless you

 

[Golgotha]

Exactly.
Fruits come After salvation.
FAITHFULNESS is a fruit.
The Holy Spirit helps us to continue in our faith, both in what we believe or/and in our behaviour.

Eph 2.8 tells us that grace, faith and salvation are all gifts offered to us by God.

It cannot be both a gift and a fruit.

JLB & Consecrated Life

I cannot see how you guys nor Modern bibles render faith in the KJV to be faithfulness when in light of the other fruits of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

For faith to be faithfulness, why is it not written as...

22 But the abiding believer is loving, joyful, peaceful, suffering long, gentle unto others, displaying goodness, faithfulness, 23 being in meekness, and always in self control, against such there is no law. ????

This is about the fruits of the Spirit, not the believer to know he or she is abiding in Him.

It is about the believer in how we either sow to either the works of the flesh whereby there is that consequence of not inheriting the kingdom of God or to the fruits of the Spirit for why they will have an inheritance as the fruits of righteousness are by Jesus Christ as our confidence is in Him to finish that race in us to His glory.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...... 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

I do not see it as faithfulness as a fruit of the Spirit in that verse, but I do see how it can be just faith as one of those fruits listed as it seems to align with the other kinds of fruits of the Spirit.

A believer can be faithful, and have faithfulness because of the fruit of faith, but anyway...

That is how & why I believe the KJV has it right.

 

[Golgotha]

Why 2 cor 12.1 to 4?
What does it have to do with Rev?

2 cor was written in the 50.s
Revelation was written in the 90.s

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Verses 2 & 4 is Paul knowing the apostle John and about those unspeakable words that s not lawful for man to utter for why it has to be the Book of Revelation for how can he know about the warning in the Book about adding to His words or taking away from His words regarding that book?

Therefore since we are reading the second epistle to the Corinthians for which Paul is writing this, Paul had knowledge of the apostle John's trip to Heaven and that Book of Revelation for he must have read that Book for him to say such a thing about it.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

So I do not believe john procrastinated in writing that Book of Revelation for why Paul had knowledge of his trip to heaven and the words John was to write that it was not lawful for any man to utter.

Maybe that reference in Revelation helps you see why I believe the way that I do. Course, only the Lord van help you see the truth in His words as He did for me so I hope He will cause the increase soon if not later.

 

[Golgotha]

PS
None of the bible is in chronological order.

Well as long as you know that, then you may be readily to accept with His help that the Book of Revelation was written before the Book of 2 Corinthians.

 

[JLB]

Exactly.
Fruits come After salvation.
FAITHFULNESS is a fruit.
The Holy Spirit helps us to continue in our faith, both in what we believe or/and in our behaviour.

Eph 2.8 tells us that grace, faith and salvation are all gifts offered to us by God.

It cannot be both a gift and a fruit.

I tend to agree.