Data On The Trinity

[Peterlag]

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, and that is supporting evidence that the doctrine is unbiblical, which may be why Trinitarians differ, sometimes greatly in their definitions of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church differs from the Western Church on the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. Trinitarians who hold to the “classic” definition of the Trinity say Jesus was 100% God and 100% man while on the earth believe differently from Kenotic Trinitarians who believe Jesus set aside his godhood while he was a man on the earth. Oneness Pentecostals say the classic formula of the Trinity is completely wrong, and yet all these claim that Christ is God and that the Bible supports their position.

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Of course the Jews, a great many of them, didn’t recognize the Messiah which is fairly large blindness. Not seeing the Tri-unity is a gnat compared to missing the elephant of the appearance of Messiah.

 

[Free]

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it.

Correct.

Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood

I don't of anyone who has said it is "not to be understood." The inner workings of the Trinity are ultimately incomprehensible but that doesn't mean we cannot understand some things about it or that we shouldn't try.

is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

Well, either God is triune or he isn't. The main issue is the deity of Christ.

The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible,

Which is, of course, irrelevant as to whether or not it is true.

and that is supporting evidence that the doctrine is unbiblical, which may be why Trinitarians differ, sometimes greatly in their definitions of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church differs from the Western Church on the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. Trinitarians who hold to the “classic” definition of the Trinity say Jesus was 100% God and 100% man while on the earth believe differently from Kenotic Trinitarians who believe Jesus set aside his godhood while he was a man on the earth. Oneness Pentecostals say the classic formula of the Trinity is completely wrong, and yet all these claim that Christ is God and that the Bible supports their position.

Oneness Pentecostals aren't Trinitarians, they're Modalists.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God.

Why should any of these things, the Bible included, need to have an explicit teaching on the Trinity in order for it to be true? Does God not use progressive revelation throughout the entire Bible? Why should it be any different when it comes to revelation of himself? Remember, the earliest Christians were Jews, strict monotheists who didn't even understand that the Messiah was going to die and rise again. Jesus ends up telling them that the Scriptures even prophesied that was going to happen. So, as strict monotheists, for sure they wrestled with the biblical statements about the nature of God--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--as it would have been strange and overwhelming, trying to make sense of it all.

This we know about God's revelation of himself to us in the Bible:

1. There is, was, and always will be only one God.
2. There are three divine persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; all are distinct one from the other.
3. They are all coequal and coeternal.

These are the things we have to make sense of and why the doctrine of the Trinity, while not perfect and may not be entirely correct, best takes into account all that the Bible reveals to us about the nature of God.

Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

And they also didn't seem to understand that the Messiah was going to die and rise again. There are a number of things, then, it seems that they didn't understand, but that doesn't mean those things are false.

 

[jaybo]

"Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians" is nonsensical. If something is "openly admitted" then obviously many people know about it. Beyond that, how do you know what "many Christians" know and don't know?

The statement that "... most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored" is also absurd. Not only am I certain that you don't know what "most Christians" believe, but your saying that they say that it shouldn't be understood is absurd.

Clearly you have a bad case of self-importance. You're also apparently not aware that there are many discussions about the trinity on many Christian forums.

 

[for_his_glory]

1. God is Spirit, John 4:24, not flesh and blood and in the OT either spoke directly to the prophets or by angels and also various objects like a burning bush or an ass for example. Between the OT and NT God was silent towards Israel as when they returned to Israel from the Babylonian captivity they came back as merchants and not shepherds as they were disobedient to God going after other gods, Book of Malachi.

2. Jesus being the very Spirit of God before the foundation of the world as He and the Father are one was prophesied by the Prophets in the OT and spoken of by John the baptist in the NT as John being the forerunner of Christ calling all to repent. As foretold Christ did come as the word of God made flesh (skin, bone, blood) to be that light that shines in darkness. He came as redeemer Savior through Gods grace as Christ is our faith that all can repent of their sins and have eternal life with the Father to all who will believe in Him as Lord and Savior. John 1:1-4; 1 Peter 1:13-21

3. After the sacrifice of Christ God raised Him from the grave and as He had to ascend back up to heaven the promise was that He would never leave us or forsake us as when He ascended He sent down the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God) to indwell all who will believe in Christ and His finished works on the cross. In the OT Gods Spirit fell on them for a time and purpose under heaven. Now we are indwelled with that power and authority through Gods grace that the Holy Spirit now works in us and through us teaching all things God wants us to learn. All three are Spiritual and Spiritual awakenings in us to know the will of God and walk in His statures. John 16:7-15

Ephesians 4: 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as all three coequal Gods Spirit.

Jesus being the right arm of God who knew no sin. Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Jesus is the word of God. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus is word, light and life that is God come in the flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Gods Holy Spirit has come to indwell us and teach us. John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Just like the word Trinity you are not going to find the exact words "God Holy Spirit" written in scripture, but scripture explains there is only one God, not three, as God exist in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All three are each God, meaning equal in power, nature and attributes and worthy of the same praise. This doesn't mean there are three gods as there is only one true God. It also doesn't mean that these are different forms of God as each is its own person. It's hard to wrap our heads around this as we can not fully understand God.

The Holy Spirit appears in both the OT and NT. In Genesis 1:2 the Spirt of God was hovering over the waters. In Genesis 1:26 Let us make mankind in our image. The word "us" means God, Son Jesus and Holy Spirit (Trinity=3) all being before the creation of the world.

The Holy Spirit has power and emotions and is active among His people. Isaiah 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his Holy Spirit (God Holy Spirit). Nehemiah 9:20 Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, (God Holy Spirit). Now under the dispensation of God's grace we have God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit dwelling in us as we are all one in Him and He in us through that of the Spiritual rebirth from above, John 3:5-7; Acts chapter 2; 1 John 4:12-17.


Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that reference the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

 

[Peterlag]

Of course the Jews, a great many of them, didn’t recognize the Messiah which is fairly large blindness. Not seeing the Tri-unity is a gnat compared to missing the elephant of the appearance of Messiah.

My point is not about the Jews that walked the Earth when Jesus did. The Jews I'm referring to are the ones at the time of the Old Testament. Were the great Prophets all throughout thousands of years unable to understand?

 

[Peterlag]

Correct.


I don't of anyone who has said it is "not to be understood." The inner workings of the Trinity are ultimately incomprehensible but that doesn't mean we cannot understand some things about it or that we shouldn't try.


Well, either God is triune or he isn't. The main issue is the deity of Christ.


Which is, of course, irrelevant as to whether or not it is true.


Oneness Pentecostals aren't Trinitarians, they're Modalists.


Why should any of these things, the Bible included, need to have an explicit teaching on the Trinity in order for it to be true? Does God not use progressive revelation throughout the entire Bible? Why should it be any different when it comes to revelation of himself? Remember, the earliest Christians were Jews, strict monotheists who didn't even understand that the Messiah was going to die and rise again. Jesus ends up telling them that the Scriptures even prophesied that was going to happen. So, as strict monotheists, for sure they wrestled with the biblical statements about the nature of God--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--as it would have been strange and overwhelming, trying to make sense of it all.

This we know about God's revelation of himself to us in the Bible:

1. There is, was, and always will be only one God.
2. There are three divine persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; all are distinct one from the other.
3. They are all coequal and coeternal.

These are the things we have to make sense of and why the doctrine of the Trinity, while not perfect and may not be entirely correct, best takes into account all that the Bible reveals to us about the nature of God.


And they also didn't seem to understand that the Messiah was going to die and rise again. There are a number of things, then, it seems that they didn't understand, but that doesn't mean those things are false.

My point is not about the Jews that walked the Earth when Jesus did. The Jews I'm referring to are the ones at the time of the Old Testament. Were the great Prophets all throughout thousands of years unable to understand?

 

[Peterlag]

"Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians" is nonsensical. If something is "openly admitted" then obviously many people know about it. Beyond that, how do you know what "many Christians" know and don't know?

The statement that "... most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored" is also absurd. Not only am I certain that you don't know what "most Christians" believe, but your saying that they say that it shouldn't be understood is absurd.

Clearly you have a bad case of self-importance. You're also apparently not aware that there are many discussions about the trinity on many Christian forums.

I would love to know where an open debate could be had about the Trinty besides this one because most that I looked at will not even let me on unless I state that I will not speak against their Trinity.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My point is not about the Jews that walked the Earth when Jesus did. The Jews I'm referring to are the ones at the time of the Old Testament. Were the great Prophets all throughout thousands of years unable to understand?

The prophets understood. The people who killed them didn’t. There were various one in between.

 

[jaybo]

I would love to know where an open debate could be had about the Trinty besides this one because most that I looked at will not even let me on unless I state that I will not speak against their Trinity.

Perhaps the moderators will allow you to express your views. But perhaps not, I have been banned a few times because I wrote my thoughts honestly.

https://www.christianityboard.com/ seems to be more tolerant of honest viewpoints than https://christianforums.net/

 

[Peterlag]

1. God is Spirit, John 4:24, not flesh and blood and in the OT either spoke directly to the prophets or by angels and also various objects like a burning bush or an ass for example. Between the OT and NT God was silent towards Israel as when they returned to Israel from the Babylonian captivity they came back as merchants and not shepherds as they were disobedient to God going after other gods, Book of Malachi.

2. Jesus being the very Spirit of God before the foundation of the world as He and the Father are one was prophesied by the Prophets in the OT and spoken of by John the baptist in the NT as John being the forerunner of Christ calling all to repent. As foretold Christ did come as the word of God made flesh (skin, bone, blood) to be that light that shines in darkness. He came as redeemer Savior through Gods grace as Christ is our faith that all can repent of their sins and have eternal life with the Father to all who will believe in Him as Lord and Savior. John 1:1-4; 1 Peter 1:13-21

3. After the sacrifice of Christ God raised Him from the grave and as He had to ascend back up to heaven the promise was that He would never leave us or forsake us as when He ascended He sent down the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God) to indwell all who will believe in Christ and His finished works on the cross. In the OT Gods Spirit fell on them for a time and purpose under heaven. Now we are indwelled with that power and authority through Gods grace that the Holy Spirit now works in us and through us teaching all things God wants us to learn. All three are Spiritual and Spiritual awakenings in us to know the will of God and walk in His statures. John 16:7-15

Ephesians 4: 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as all three coequal Gods Spirit.

Jesus being the right arm of God who knew no sin. Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Jesus is the word of God. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus is word, light and life that is God come in the flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Gods Holy Spirit has come to indwell us and teach us. John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Just like the word Trinity you are not going to find the exact words "God Holy Spirit" written in scripture, but scripture explains there is only one God, not three, as God exist in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All three are each God, meaning equal in power, nature and attributes and worthy of the same praise. This doesn't mean there are three gods as there is only one true God. It also doesn't mean that these are different forms of God as each is its own person. It's hard to wrap our heads around this as we can not fully understand God.

The Holy Spirit appears in both the OT and NT. In Genesis 1:2 the Spirt of God was hovering over the waters. In Genesis 1:26 Let us make mankind in our image. The word "us" means God, Son Jesus and Holy Spirit (Trinity=3) all being before the creation of the world.

The Holy Spirit has power and emotions and is active among His people. Isaiah 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his Holy Spirit (God Holy Spirit). Nehemiah 9:20 Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, (God Holy Spirit). Now under the dispensation of God's grace we have God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit dwelling in us as we are all one in Him and He in us through that of the Spiritual rebirth from above, John 3:5-7; Acts chapter 2; 1 John 4:12-17.


Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that reference the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

I would welcome debating each of the verses you listed if you would enjoy having me do so but only one at a time. In the mean time I leave you with this...

The Old Testament prophecies about the coming Messiah foretold that he would be a human being who would be the offspring of Eve (Genesis 3:15); a descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18); a descendant of Judah (Genesis 49:10; a prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15); a son of David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 11:1); a king ruling under Yahweh (Psalm 110:1); and a ruler from among the people of Israel (Jeremiah 30:21). That explains why the people were all expecting a human Messiah. Psalm 110:1 merits special attention because it's especially clear but has been misunderstood and misrepresented by most English versions that read “The LORD says to my Lord….” The word “LORD” is Yahweh, but many Trinitarian commentators argue that “my Lord” in this verse is the Hebrew word "adonai" that is another name for God, and that would provide proof of the divinity of the Messiah. But the Hebrew text does not use "adonai" but rather "adoni" which is always used in Scripture to describe human masters and lords, but never God.

The Old Testament refers to the Messiah as “one like a son of man” and the phrase “son of man” was a Semitic idiom for a human being and it's used that way throughout the Old Testament. The phrase “son of man” also became a title of the Messiah when Daniel referred to him as “one like a son of man” (Daniel 7:13) and that explains why Jesus called himself “the son of man” many times. The use of the “son of man” in reference to the Messiah is one more piece of evidence that Jesus was fully human and one more reason that people were expecting the Messiah to be human. The New Testament teaches Jesus was a man and Jesus himself said he was “a man who has told you the truth” John 8:40. Jesus was not being disingenuous and hiding his “divine nature” but rather was making a factual statement that reinforced what the Jews were expecting of the Messiah—that he would be a fully human man.

The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”

 

[Peterlag]

The prophets understood. The people who killed them didn’t. There were various one in between.

The Jews I speak about are the Prophets who understood the Scriptures. They did not teach a Trinity or even mention one.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The Jews I speak about are the Prophets who understood the Scriptures. They did not teach a Trinity or even mention one.

They would have known about God and the Spirit of God, that’s two. Genesis has the Spirit of God moving who is God but not all God. Sometimes prophets were filled with the Holy Spirit who wasn’t the fullness of God.

 

[for_his_glory]

I would welcome debating each of the verses you listed if you would enjoy having me do so but only one at a time. In the mean time I leave you with this...

The Old Testament prophecies about the coming Messiah foretold that he would be a human being who would be the offspring of Eve (Genesis 3:15); a descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18); a descendant of Judah (Genesis 49:10; a prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15); a son of David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 11:1); a king ruling under Yahweh (Psalm 110:1); and a ruler from among the people of Israel (Jeremiah 30:21). That explains why the people were all expecting a human Messiah. Psalm 110:1 merits special attention because it's especially clear but has been misunderstood and misrepresented by most English versions that read “The LORD says to my Lord….” The word “LORD” is Yahweh, but many Trinitarian commentators argue that “my Lord” in this verse is the Hebrew word "adonai" that is another name for God, and that would provide proof of the divinity of the Messiah. But the Hebrew text does not use "adonai" but rather "adoni" which is always used in Scripture to describe human masters and lords, but never God.

The Old Testament refers to the Messiah as “one like a son of man” and the phrase “son of man” was a Semitic idiom for a human being and it's used that way throughout the Old Testament. The phrase “son of man” also became a title of the Messiah when Daniel referred to him as “one like a son of man” (Daniel 7:13) and that explains why Jesus called himself “the son of man” many times. The use of the “son of man” in reference to the Messiah is one more piece of evidence that Jesus was fully human and one more reason that people were expecting the Messiah to be human. The New Testament teaches Jesus was a man and Jesus himself said he was “a man who has told you the truth” John 8:40. Jesus was not being disingenuous and hiding his “divine nature” but rather was making a factual statement that reinforced what the Jews were expecting of the Messiah—that he would be a fully human man.

The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”

I will not debate all those scriptures I gave at the end of my post as Jesus was fully God and fully man as He came in the flesh of man, but had no sin. Let me ask you this question. However I will discuss how you understand John 1:1-18, especially vs. 1 and 14.

 

[for_his_glory]

I would love to know where an open debate could be had about the Trinty besides this one because most that I looked at will not even let me on unless I state that I will not speak against their Trinity.

We would rather have members discuss the scriptures and not debate them as everyone has their own views and understandings that need to be respected, even if we do not always agree with each other. Please go read the Terms of Service (ToS) that you agreed with when you became a member in order to familiarize with what we expect of our members.

 

[Free]

My point is not about the Jews that walked the Earth when Jesus did. The Jews I'm referring to are the ones at the time of the Old Testament. Were the great Prophets all throughout thousands of years unable to understand?

Yes. That is exactly my point. Whether long before Christ or while he was alive on earth, they simply didn't understand some things about what was written in the Scriptures. Therefore, your argument that the Jews and the Jewish religion didn't teach Trinitarianism is moot.

 

[Peterlag]

They would have known about God and the Spirit of God, that’s two. Genesis has the Spirit of God moving who is God but not all God. Sometimes prophets were filled with the Holy Spirit who wasn’t the fullness of God.

I don't get your point. Are you saying the Prophets saw a Trinity or they were not good Prophets and therefore did not see a Trinity?

 

[D-D-W]

The Jews I speak about are the Prophets who understood the Scriptures. They did not teach a Trinity or even mention one.

Daniel in Chapter 7 saw a duality, not a Trinity. The Ancient of Days and the Son of Man. Both are described as Diety. And that greatly disturbed him. But it opens the door to a God who is much more complex than anyone had imagined.
Most Messianics are trinitarian (small t) in their beliefs, but often not in keeping with the ECF writings or the classic creeds of the Christian faith.

Indeed, one Messianic Rabbi (Dan Juster ThD) described the trinitarian concepts written in the ancient creeds as specifically engineered to dissuade curious Jews from looking into the New Covenant faith.

Earlier the Oneness pentecostals were mentioned as being Modalists. That is an accurate description. What is amusing is that their main verse is Deut 6.4 - in Judaism called the Shema. In Hebrew it is said like this:

Shema Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu Adonai echad.

God is mentioned 3 times, giving a hint at the triunity of God. But notice the last word - echad. One. When Moses was writing, that "one" was not an absolute singularity; but a composite unity. When it is written in Genesis (by Moses) that "the 2 shall become one flesh," the word is echad. Clearly there were still 2 bodies, man and woman, but they were now echad - a composite unity.

So God is ONE. God is also three. And according to a couple of verses in Revelation, God is seven.

Much more complex than we can imagine. And I do not believe (unlike the Oneness crowd) that HE holds it against us if we get that wrong.

 

[Peterlag]

I will not debate all those scriptures I gave at the end of my post as Jesus was fully God and fully man as He came in the flesh of man, but had no sin. Let me ask you this question. However I will discuss how you understand John 1:1-18, especially vs. 1 and 14.

It is imperative that the serious student of the Bible come to a basic understanding of logos, which is translated as "Word" in John 1:1. Most Trinitarians believe that the word logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most versions of John logos is capitalized and translated "Word" (some versions even write "Christ" in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it.) When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translator's decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture. As it is used throughout Scripture, logos has a very wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought. One is the mind and products of the mind like "reason" (thus "logic" is related to logos) and the other is the expression of that reason as a "word," "saying," "command," etc. The Bible itself demonstrates the wide range of meaning logos has, and some of the ways it is translated in Scripture are: account, appearance, book, command, conversation, eloquence, flattery, grievance, heard, instruction, matter, message, ministry, news, proposal, question, reason, reasonable, reply, report, rule, rumor, said, saying, sentence, speaker, speaker, speaking, speech, stories, story, talk, talking, teaching, testimony, thing, things, this, truths, what, why, word, and words. I had thought you would have picked a verse that had not a wide range of meanings.

 

[Free]

It is imperative that the serious student of the Bible come to a basic understanding of logos, which is translated as "Word" in John 1:1. Most Trinitarians believe that the word logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most versions of John logos is capitalized and translated "Word" (some versions even write "Christ" in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it.) When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translator's decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture. As it is used throughout Scripture, logos has a very wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought. One is the mind and products of the mind like "reason" (thus "logic" is related to logos) and the other is the expression of that reason as a "word," "saying," "command," etc. The Bible itself demonstrates the wide range of meaning logos has, and some of the ways it is translated in Scripture are: account, appearance, book, command, conversation, eloquence, flattery, grievance, heard, instruction, matter, message, ministry, news, proposal, question, reason, reasonable, reply, report, rule, rumor, said, saying, sentence, speaker, speaker, speaking, speech, stories, story, talk, talking, teaching, testimony, thing, things, this, truths, what, why, word, and words. I had thought you would have picked a verse that had not a wide range of meanings.

You have your argument backwards. You should be looking at those times when both the NIV and KJV capitalize "Word." They may disagree elsewhere, but what does it say when they do agree?

Of course, a serious student of the Bible also knows that context determines meaning. It's the relationship between the words in a verse or passage that determines the particular meaning used. In John 1:1-18, we see that the logos was both "with God" and "was God." Perhaps you can show us where else in the Bible the logos is said to be God. It is that very logos that becomes (enters into time) flesh and makes his dwelling among us as the Son of God.

We should also include Rev 19:13, where the rider on the white horse (Jesus) is said to be "clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God." Lest there be any doubt that this is Jesus, we can see in verse 16 that, "On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords." And this reflects what was stated in Rev 17:14, "They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.” That alone is interesting since Paul uses that phrase in 1 Tim 6:15 in speaking of God.

Then we can look at verse 16 as well:

1Ti 6:15 which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. (ESV)

Paul says that "no one has ever seen of can see" God. And, yet, Jesus said of himself (all ESV):

Joh 6:46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

Joh 16:5 But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’

Joh 16:27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
Joh 16:28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”

Joh 17:4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

Joh 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

And on the trail goes, showing that Jesus, as the Son of God, as the Word, is unique, and so words apply to him much differently than they apply elsewhere in Scripture. Or, one could argue that Paul was simply mistaken, but then the inspiration and authority of Scripture is undermined.